[Trustandlove]

A lot of that resonated, CL.  Certainly the part about us only being able to change ourselves.  We talk about that here constantly.

And the idea of them disagreeing with us may just be another way of saying some of the other things that we talk about here; perhaps RCR may have a view, or DGU -- he knows her articles better than anyone. 

I do believe, however, that they in many cases just shut their eyes and ears to the effect that their behaviour has on others, because they can't face themselves at this point. 

I do think that Dr. Simon is right, though, when he says that people won't change unless it is in their interests to do so, and that applies in MLC as well. 

[hyperglad]

I have to say that I agree with CL to some degree on this.My H saw and knew the devastation he caused...I got to a point where i couldn't even look at him, because he was caught out lie after  lie and i had had enough. I physically pushed him out the door...(before i found this site) he begged with his usual false promises that he wouldn't talk to her again (he did so again on many occasions after this) but i was done...anger overcome the fear and when I made him leave (and this may sound mad) I felt good...not because i was punishing him, but because i was not worrying about what people would say or how I would live without him...but I was feeling I had some dignity back, especially after the crumbling begging wreck I had been on discovery of OW (well no the immediate discovery as I kicked him out then too) but the sad reality of the aftermath. 

Many know my H is a CB and never really moved far away, never moved in with OW or flaunted her...I think he knew that would have been it for me...and i am even confused why I let him home...never more so than now. He lived in his own flat for 18mth...coming home several times...never giving up his bolt hole and when the heat got too much here he would run again. Only when i got to the point where I felt truly done...I didn't shout and scream at him...I just said leave me be and do whatever..did he sit up and take notice. Now, thinking back...I think i was so happy and excited by this and him wanting to come home, give up his cave, i didn't give it enough time. I was then truly detached and should have waited until i was sure.

He has been home now going on for 8mths and i have to say I am disappointed with our R. Maybe I had expectations ( I know OP  ) but why shouldn't I. I am now considering if i want to continue being with him. He has not cheated (as far as I know, but can we ever be sure ) he is just not what a committed loving H should be IMO...so for now i am still while i decide what it is I want. He doesn't want to talk....doesn't want to try anything really so maybe it is just our time to go our separate ways.

[OldPilot]

He has not cheated (as far as I know, but can we ever be sure ) he is just not what a committed loving H should be IMO...

NOPE because he is still in crisis.
And he is not yet capable of giving you what you want.
I guess trying to eat the cake when it is only half baked just does not work.

CL FTR nothing you said in your post above is anything that we do not preach on this forum.
It sounds almost exactly like our advice.

I guess the only difference is that we hold a slight sliver of hope that at some point these knuckle heads will emerge from the dark tunnels.

[Dontgiveup]

And the idea of them disagreeing with us may just be another way of saying some of the other things that we talk about here; perhaps RCR may have a view, or DGU -- he knows her articles better than anyone.

Thank you for the compliment Trustandlove.

I did comment earlier in the thread.  I believe RCR commented earlier in the thread as well, including clarifying some insight on "cake eating" with an MLCer.  I do not know if Chump Lady has read RCR' articles....RCR has several on infidelity.

Chump Lady's focus seems to be on the affair.  My focus is more on the MLC process, and the affair is a symptom (often the most public and painful one).  I may look at MLC less emotionally than many, but as I learned about the symptoms of MLC I just figured the possibility was high that my MLCer was likely to do any and all of the behaviors associated with MLC.

I let my MLCer know I disagreed with what she was doing, but I also detached.  As I sometimes say to those I know, during MLC my MLCer is going to do what MLCers do.

Here is a piece of one of RCR's Standing articles that I found helpful.
In fighting there are sides working against each other. Standers give up the fight--the power struggle. Thus the MLCer has nothing with the spouse to fight against. Standing is about Passive Resistance.

RCR has written a few times to let the MLCer have their crisis.  I agree with that.  This thread is focused on the affair.  I am not.  And out of fairness, let me also say that my MLCer has not flaunted any OM to me.  She told me she had one, but that was two years ago.  She has never brought one in my presence, nor said anything about one since then.  I have done no snooping.

[dwlh]

I think if I focused on my MLCers affair there is no way I could stand. I do believe ow is a symptom and a way for my H to escape reality. He knows this too deep deep down. When my H first left he said to me I'm using that poor girl. Now he is with her all the time. However if I focus on him being with her I think I would have to stand down.
  The OP is in MHO just a symptom of the crisis.

[FindingJoJo]

I do not believe that nice-ing people out of affairs and waiting for them patiently to return to their senses works. Instead it signals to them that you are okay with cake.

I don't believe that anyone is advocating to nice-ing people out of affairs, as the affair is the symptom not the cause in many cases.  When I first started on here the very first piece of knowledge that I received is that I cannot change him and to focus on me and changing me.  It isn't a pretty process self-evaluation but because of it I can cope and move forward in my life.  It has also helped me change from being an angry person who couldn't please an MLC crisis H to one that is nicer and more patient.  I don't think it signals that you are okay with cake, but rather that you recognized that you had some issues and worked on them, in turn it settles a person into a more productive lifestyle while the MLCer keeps imploding.  For me it was becoming a nicer person. 

Outsiders looking in choose to view this as being a push over but for me it works because I feel more centered and happy, I chose to forgive for my own sake not his.  He clearly knows how I feel about his actions, but I also choose to move past that.  Is that cake?  To some maybe, but to me it is part of my healing.  I think everyone has a different viewpoint based upon their own relationship details, but really each situation is different and we are the only ones to know our H's and the only ones who can determine what fits for us. 

[honour]

I guess the only difference is that we hold a slight sliver of hope that at some point these knuckle heads will emerge from the dark tunnels.

Does the "slight sliver of hope" imply a degree of attachment and expectation?

This is where I struggle with the logic for the LBS:
The advice is to detach, to live like they are not coming back. It therefore follows if you thoroughly detach you do not care if they come back because there is no emotional attachment. So, if the "knuckle heads" emerge from the dark tunnel will the LBS even care? Should the LBS care? Does "caring" imply attachment? If the MLCer wants to return it is because the MLCer has a need; it won't be because the LBS has a need; the LBS no longer has an emotional attachment.

If the theory holds that MLC is a form of depression and the MLCer wants to return to a thoroughly detached and now emotionally independent and emotionally healthy LBS, then the relationship can only be one of a therapist(LBS)/ patient(MLCer) scenario. Nothing wrong with that of course, it would be noble and selfless, but at BD, that is our new reality if the detaching advice is adhered to.

honour

[Dontgiveup]

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_detach_practical-applications-to-detachment.html

[limitless]

Boy, Honour, what a post!

You hit the nail on the head of what I ponder about quite regularly!

I guess that is where the detachment, with love, comes into play?

The more I detach, the more I wonder if I still love my H?  I can't love him now.  The man/child he is right now is completely unloveable.  Completely.

Stayed has said that love can be re-kindled at a later time.  I have had to blindly accept that statement - because if I think about it too much - I have doubts that this could actualy happen.

The advice is to detach, to live like they are not coming back. It therefore follows if you thoroughly detach you do not care if they come back because there is no emotional attachment.

I don't know if the LBS doesn't or won't care if they come back or not.  I think we need to accept the fact that they may or may not come back. 

It is really a difficult concept.  To live like they are not coming back - in my mind - means that I go forward with my life.  I do not plan to be alone for the remainder of my life....so, eventually, I would imagine that I would be open to a new relationship.

But, I am not divorced.  I remain legally married.  So, until my divorce is through - I continue to live my life as if I am married?  But, I have no partner.  I am alone (with my kids...thankfully). 

So....let's take it further - if my H finally divorces me....I am a free woman.  There are many Standers here who are divorced...and yet continue to Stand for their marriage. 

When are you really living like they are never coming back?

So, if the "knuckle heads" emerge from the dark tunnel will the LBS even care? Should the LBS care? Does "caring" imply attachment? If the MLCer wants to return it is because the MLCer has a need; it won't be because the LBS has a need; the LBS no longer has an emotional attachment.

I think that this is the fear or concern of many Standers - who have been Standing for some time (1, 2, 3 + years).  Will I still care?  Will I even want him/her back?  I wonder about this.....

If the theory holds that MLC is a form of depression and the MLCer wants to return to a thoroughly detached and now emotionally independent and emotionally healthy LBS, then the relationship can only be one of a therapist(LBS)/ patient(MLCer) scenario. Nothing wrong with that of course, it would be noble and selfless, but at BD, that is our new reality if the detaching advice is adhered to.

Wow!  The relationship can only be one of a therapist and a patient!???!!  Wow!  That isn't the relationship that I would have in my mind, that is for sure.

Few of us are therapists.  And, even if I were, I don't think that I could/would, or should be counseling my partner. 

The MLCer has a need...and the LBS does not.  Wow.  It does sound a bit lopsided, doesnt it? 

I know that i sound a bit Pollyana - but wouldn't it be great if we both were to heal ourselves and reconcile as two healthy people?  But, it seems that many (most) MLCers return broken (if/when they return).

I wonder how much an LBS can take?

Good questions, Honour.  Wish I had the answer for them.

limitless

[NoRegrets]

Hand up in the air here!

It was my H who told me that he wouldn't have to leave if I would just allow OW to "sleep at the foot of our bed."  That that was all he/she wanted.

He was serious.  I'll never forget it.  It was just a few weeks after BD.  We were standing in my office at home, H had come over to install a new printer for me, and he was so sincere.

It was then I began to realize something seriously bizarre was going on. . .

Just wanted to add that!

TMHP

Just look at her as like...like the family dog. Sleeping there at the foot of the bed.

Oh, can you imagine if SHE'D heard that?

Why, it would have suited your H just fine for her to have a spot at the foot of your marital bed.

Another sign they don't even care about the OW's feelings--it's all just fantasy, the OP is a shallow character, available for the MLC'er to use.