[xyzcf]

But, you speak as if the odds were in favor of her wanting to return and once again act as H and W.  I believe that line of thinking is dangerous, my friend.

This is NOT LT or DB, This IS HEROS' SPOUSE  and the philosophy here from what I have studied is that MLC ends and the likelihood is VERY good that they will want to return to the marriage, but in many cases the LBSer has moved on. RCR's reason d'etre for this site is to maybe change those stats, that more people will be encouraged to "stand" and be ready for the day that their MLCer wakes up.

Jim Conway's research also says the same..over 30 years of studying MLC.

I have said this before..if you are not comfortable with the philosophy that is expressed here then feel free to leave. But do not TWIST things around so that you can have the answer that you want. You are doing the same thing with the issue of annulment...you did not read one word that I wrote concerning what the conditions are for annulment...typical...you only read what you WANT to hear.

In the greater scheme of things, you will answer to God ultimately on how you proceed with you life.

I see the importance of comforting the newbies with the fact that what is going on MAY not be permanent as when we are in those first few months we are incapable of making rational decisions and the fear of seeking a new relationship or lifestyle is overwhelming.

I have never read anywhere that RCR's advice is for newbies to placate them or stick a soother in their mouths. No, as more time passes, it is even more important to study her work and allow the process to unwind as it will eventually some day.

I am not a newbie to this and nether is DGU and you know what...after he disclosed that his wife had remarried and that he is still standing I was totally in awe of his faith and his belief in the sacrament of marriage.

3 years ago, a priest asked me how long I was willing to wait...and I answered forever I guess. He looked at me closely and said "do you believe that marriage is forever" and I answered yes. That was true 35 years ago, 3 years ago and still remains true today. For me "as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord".

Justify all you want Thundaar. RCR has always said that it is up to the LBSer whether they wish to continue standing or not.

[Dontgiveup]

DGU, once again you speak in absolutes.

I would ask you to count the number of times you use the words "never", "ever", and "definitely" compared to the number of times I do.

As if she is DEFINITELY in MLC and as if she will DEFINITELY want to return to the M some day.

You do happen to be on a website dedicated to MLC, so I doubt I would talk about her tendonitis.  The word definitely is an absolute.  Would you mind pointing out to me where I said she would definitely return?  What I am asking you about is how your belief system is going to drive your decision making.

You also speak of her "present emotional state" as if any emotional state can be constant and enduring for years.

You are catching on.....that's why I called it her "present" emotional state.  I'm guessing her emotional state was not this way not so long ago.

Emotional states are fluid and ever-changing, often with elements of several different emotions revolving and evolving.  They are not just being one way for months or years at a time.

Perhaps that's one reason MLCers cycle during the crisis.

I'm a stander, but do I accept that there will come a time that I will no longer feel the desire/ need/ logic in standing?  Of course.  I have said many times that I will not stand forever.

I get this and have no issue with it.  I am asking you to consider how this lines up with your belief system.

But, you speak as if the odds were in favor of her wanting to return and once again act as H and W.  I believe that line of thinking is dangerous, my friend.

Interestingly enough, you seem to focus on the word "return".  I invite you to check out my posts and see how often I talk about MLCers returning.  What I do is help people understand the MLC process and match MLC behavior with RCR and Conway's information.  As those who know me will confirm, I do not focus on my ex-wife's return.  What I want for her is the MLC process to mature and develop her, then we can see if a return might be possible.

I see the importance of comforting the newbies with the fact that what is going on MAY not be permanent as when we are in those first few months we are incapable of making rational decisions and the fear of seeking a new relationship or lifestyle is overwhelming.

There is a lot of information out there (even mainstream stuff) that says it's not typically permanent.  And newbies probably need more than just a few months.

But, once we have been on this journey for awhile we begin to evaluate the facts of what is going on and the "big picture" independent of what "emotional state" we perceive our spouses to be in.

Maybe you don't believe that your wife's current emotional state is driving her decision making.  That's up to you.  But I do believe MLC is driving my ex-wife's decisions and I will share that belief on here.  I get comments from others that appreciate the calm, rational perspective that I am able to offer.  That's my role.

The "big picture" is that my W has taken sufficient action to end my marriage and your XW is now married to someone else.  At the end of the day both of our cases may end up being permanent.

As a professional, you might have better access to statistics than I do.....but from what I understand, there is a high probability that my ex-wife's marriage to other man will not be permanent.  And you notice I did not say she would "definitely return".  I'm not a putting the cart before the horse kind of guy.

We don't know and we have to make a decision about what is best in each of our lives.  Perhaps we are both meant to move on to other, more fulfilling relationships and perhaps our W/ XW will find their happiness elsewhere or stick it out and make it work regardless.

I try to make those decisions based on my belief system.  And this thread is about your belief system.

Even from the inside of this mess you have to admit that sometimes it is best to throw in the towel (even a yellow one and cut your losses in order to win again some other day.

I may throw in the towel if I can't fix my car.

I don't mean to be negative, DGU, but rather realistic.

My intent is to be informational and help people match their actions to their beliefs.

We are not newbies and are either at or nearing a point to where we can look at things objectively.

My belief system is the same 2.5 years later as it was at bomb drop.

Most on here, LT and DB will not have their spouses return.  RCR has said that many times.

She has said it.  I don't know if she has said it "many" times.....but again, I don't focus on the return.

Perhaps I'm like the lone patron sitting in the diner that has closed permanently and waiting for someone to take my order.

So you are about to compare something you know is permanent to something that you don't know is permanent?

How long would you sit in that diner before you realize the power is off, the doors locked and everyone has gone home?  Would you sit and wait at the table for the original owner to possibly open it back up someday?  Or would you stay there until you starved to death while telling yourself "People who close businesses sometimes try to re-open them."  I prefer not to starve.

I am nowhere near starving.

When I reach the day that I believe my M really is over for good and that the odds of her returning are too remote, or when my limits are reached and I no longer WANT my W back then I will pursue an annulment.  Does that make me a bad person?  Hell no!!  I didn't and would not have left her.  She left me, discarded like trash as so many of us have been, and made use of the resources she has at her disposal to terminate any bond she has with me other than the kids.  I'm not her H anymore, just her "Baby Daddy."  If she ever wants me to be more than that again she had best act soon.

Quite an emotional post.  I hope you can continue to work through your anger.  Again the intent of what I say is to help you consider matching your beliefs with your actions.  If you are doing that, then all is well.

[Anjae]

In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family.

Thundarr....really?  I doubt there is a collective jaw drop on this forum that your wife has not expressed regret by month 15 of MLC.

Even if I accept that MLC is temporary (which it isn't in all cases) then it may be 7-10 years and by that time W and I will be very different people.
However that does no mean we have to take them back. I think most of them return but we may no longer want them back. However I’m not certain they all turn out to me more mature and emotionally developed than they were before the crisis. In my cousin’s case that has not happened. At least not yet but we are 3 weeks short of his “wake up”. Becoming more mature as also only happened to a former male MLCer I know when, after married OW and have had twins with her, he wanted back to first wife and she had moved on. To some it seems they really need to feel all is lost. Otherwise, some how, they don’t fully mature. But it is impossible to say which ones are like this. Some return while the LBS is still willing to take them back, and seem to have changed for the better and mature.

The thing with MLC is that there are no certainties. So, I think DGU is right, the only thing we can do is to match our beliefs with our actions. For me that leaves me with a problem: I get the MLC process and have no doubt my husband is having one, however my beliefs do not include a spouse who mistreat, abandons, lives with another person. I would not remain married to an alcoholic or drug addict if my husband had become one, nor to an abuser. And I’m not sure I would remain married to someone with certain psychiatric diseases. Both our civil law and Catholic law allow for divorce/annulment in the case of insanity. I’m not a Catholic so the last is not an issue to me. So, is MLC a mental illness/insanity, even if temporary? To me, yes. But that is a personal view, you do not have to have the same view.

On the other hand it is correct than the Church (Catholic or other) is man made and that the Church and God are not one and the same thing.

Anyway Thundarr, I don’t think that in the middle of the emotional turmoil you’re finding yourself it is a good idea to be thinking about annulments. Nor I would run after one just because I’ve become divorced. I think giving it time to dust to settle would be a good idea.

edited for end quote brackets - not sure if they are in the right place.  limitless

[trusting]

In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family.

Thundarr....really?  I doubt there is a collective jaw drop on this forum that your wife has not expressed regret by month 15 of MLC.

I am almost 41 months post BD.  My H has never ever showed any confusion on this or given any indication he wishes to return to our family.  Not one time. 

[Covenant for Life]

I am 53 months past when my H moved out and like Trusting's H, my H has never really wavered either on his intent to abandon not just me, but our two children.  My son, now 18 and leaving for NYU in a few weeks, has not had the Father that he deserves since he was
an eighth grader.  My daughter was a high school junior when H left and is now in graduate school.  What has happened in our lives is not fair to any of us, but especially not fair to our beloved children.

I will not lie.  The loneliness is gut wrenching.  I miss my H every hour of every day.

God said a covenant is forever and since marriage is a covenant, I will stand forever.  When God speaks that loudly to you, you stand in obedience.  In fact, I stand in faithfulness to God's sacrifice for me.  My marriage being restored will be a bonus to bringing my H back to God.  My H currently is not saved and in fact, like other MLCers, has turned away from God and his faith.  I stand and pray for my H's salvation.

[xyzcf]

On the other hand it is correct than the Church (Catholic or other) is man made and that the Church and God are not one and the same thing.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Church-Body of Christ

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

Each time mass is celebrated, in the consecration of the bread and the wine, Christ is there..today just like He was 2,000 years ago.

John and Andrew had an encouter with Christ and became His disciples and along with the other 9 were sent by Christ out into the world to spread Christianity. That was the beginning of the Church..it was made by God just like every other thing in the universe.

The encounter with Christ continues today..it is not an event that just occurred 2,000 years ago..it is happening here, now, every minute of every day.

[Anjae]

I’m sorry xyzcf but the Roman Catholic Church is man made and so are many of its rules and regulations, several of which have been changed many times along the centuries on different Consilia. I know the Bible and religious history but I’m not a Catholic. And, as you know, the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, was written by men.

I understand, and respect, you and others who have a religious view on the matter, my view is the one of an Historian & Philosopher.  We come from different perspectives and backgrounds. Nothing wrong with that.

Yet, none of this changes the reasons under which, currently, the Catholic Church grants a marriage annulment. It also does not change that 15 months is very little time for MLC.

[Stillpraying]

Quote
The Church-Body of Christ

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

Exactly!  CHRIST is the HEAD of the Church.  So what does CHRIST have to say about Divorce and marriage?  I do not see any mention of Anulments in the Bible.
It is also through Christ that we can know God, not through the Church.  The Church is the body and NOT the head. 

[SavingGrace]

As a practicing devout Catholic, I think I have the right to comment on this topic. While I appreciate other people commenting about my church's teaching from those who are not Catholics, but clearly have very strong opinions about the teaching of the church when it comes to divorce and annulments, I would like to say that one must be careful in passing off opinions and judgments about another person's faith. In my opinion, some comments have come across disparaging towards the Catholic Church and while the Church is not perfect, please name for me one other faith denominational church that is without sin or without manmade rules and precepts to live by? The Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, etc, Jewish and even Isalmic religions, etc all have guidelines of which their faithful must live by to be members of their church. Personally, I don't condone the Islamic law of stoning a person for committing adultery (no matter how angry I am at my H's OW), I think it is wrong, but using it as an example to make one's argument stronger about what is right or wrong with another person's church when you talk about something that may not be familiar to you but only have a cursory knowledge of, can be harmful sometimes.

Personally Thundarr, I think this subject is extremely personal and is not really a matter of public discussion and has the potential to cause people to hold fast to their own personal strong beliefs sometimes at the expense of hurting another's faith walk whether they are standing for their marriage or are divorced or will be divorced.

As a Catholic, my divorce is a legal contract with the state that is getting dissolved. I am not in a position to seek an annulment in the church as I have no desire to be with a man or annul my marriage. It is way too soon to be discussing these issues right now. If and when I am, i will seek the counsel of a canon lawyer as opposed to the MLC forum, no matter how wonderful you all are. Annulments in the church are not so easy to get. They are not rubber stamped when the paperwork is submitted. So for everyone on this thread to be worried that the church granting annulments willy nilly really has no clue about canon law and what is adjudicated when submitting the paperwork. I can guarantee you that some Catholics on this forum who are against annulments may one day be cursing the very same church that refuses to grant their annulment from their MLC spouse for some reason, and this same person will not be able to remarry the new love of their life and partake in the sacraments of the church. The church can be loved one day and then despised and hated the next.

Throughout the ages it has always been easy to bash the Catholic Church. In the spirit of kindness, I respectfully ask that this thread does not become a place to argue what is wrong with the Catholic Church. My divorce and situation is difficult enough. I really don't want to feel judged by others because of the church I belong to or what it represents.

[Heart to Heart]

AMEN SavingGrace!!  Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly.