[xyzcf]

I know Covenant for Life..sorry but I am angry at this topic being brought up here again in a site for Standers.

By the way, Catholics can be divorced just like any other denomination BUT they cannot remarry in a Catholic Church nor can they then receive the Eucharist if they enter into another relationship.

Nothing stops a Catholic from divorcing and remarrying in another Christian Church if they so desire.

By the way, you must obtain a divorce BEFORE you can apply for an annulment. So even if an annulment is granted, you first must go through the courts and be LEGALLY divorced.

[Covenant for Life]

xyzcf,

Your last sentence is why the church on Earth should be trembling in fear as it  - as well as all of us - will stand on Judgment Day in front of God.

Jesus said "no remarriage" - whether one is in a Catholic Church, a Lutheran Church, or any other Christian denomination.  Jesus called it adultery in at least 8 separate passages of scripture and He will not be changing his mind.

[Thundarr]

So, X, if my D goes through I can't take the Eucharist?  Just want to clarify.  Will comment on the rest later.

[xyzcf]

No, you can take the Eucharist if divorced as long as in you intend to remain faithful to your wife and your wedding vows.

A divorce is a man made legal document that dissolves a marriage. Unless your marriage is annulled, you are still married in the eyes of the Catholic church.

 If you enter into a another relationship after you are divorced, you are then committing adultery which would put you into a sin category that would not allow you to participate in the Eucharist unless you went to confession, were absolved and promised to sin no more.

[Covenant for Life]

Covenant versus Contract.

A civil court thinks it can "divorce" you, but in essence it can only dissolve the legal aspects of your marriage that the state recognizes  -such as financial division of assets, issues with your children, and other contractual matters.

God is the only one who has the power to cement you and your spouse into a one flesh relationship that is a covenant between God and the couple.  The state did not bond you together;  God did.  Therefore, the state has no authority to separate you.  Thus, Jesus said,

"What God has joined together, let no man separate."

And, as xyzcf stated, because GOD does not recognize a state sanctioned divorce, marrying a second/third/fourth partner is adultery since in God's eyes, you are still MARRIED to your covenant spouse.  HE is still holding you to the vows YOU made, regardless of whether your spouse is being faithful to his/her vows at the present time.

[xyzcf]

No, you can take the Eucharist if divorced as long as in you intend to remain faithful to your wife and your wedding vows.

A divorce is a man made legal document that dissolves a marriage. Unless your marriage is annulled, you are still married in the eyes of the Catholic church.

 If you enter into a another relationship after you are divorced, you are then committing adultery which would put you into a sin category that would not allow you to participate in the Eucharist unless you went to confession, were absolved and promised to sin no more.

This is from the article you posted under "Myths about annullments"

1. Once people divorce they are no longer part of the church. Divorced people are excommunicated and are no longer able to receive the sacraments.
 Nothing could be further from the truth. This is an old carry-over from the 1917 Code of Canon Law. Those who divorce and have not remarried are in full communion and may approach all sacraments. For those divorced and remarried, the church requests they not approach the sacrament of Eucharist until they have secured a valid marriage in the eyes of the church.

[Stillpraying]

What does the BIBLE say?  The church is but a body of people, sinners, imperfect christians.
Jesus said "I am the way" Not "the church is they way"
What does GOD say?  There are quite a few passages. I believe God releases us from the marriage when the other partner abandones us and moves on with some one else.  We are released.  I do believe in standing when you know there is something going on like MLC and there is a great hope that this is temporary.  BUt for many of us, the abuse and lack of comittment started way before.  I don't believe God is going to hold me to my marriage when my H will not return or repent.

Also, to those who have divorced or left their spouse "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"  No sin is too great that God cannot forgive.  The church cannot say who can be in relationship with God.  God calls all of us to be in relationship with him.

[Thundarr]

DGU, X and all - My opinion on annulment is very much like what RCR wrote last year.  I abhor the concept of divorce and annulment EXCEPT in the case of grave abuse or outright abandonment (which is, in itself, an abuse).  I stand behind that no one should have to live in an abusive relationship, but also that no one should have to be treated in such a way as many of us have and continue to be.  I took my vows with the intention of spending eternity with my W by my side.  We even own our own gravesites, in fact, and the two plots are side by side.  W has said (early on) that she would still be buried there in the little Catholic cemetery where my family is buried.  To me, I am married until the day I die but to her (who is also a cradle Catholic) it doesn't work that way.

Now, despite what I have put up with over the years the thought of D was never truly even considered.  Now I find myself heading for D that I had nothing to do with starting and have not participated in helping.  I have been abandoned and left to fend for myself and the kids.  If my W goes through with it and moves on, I have no desire to be a martyr or spend the rest of my life lonely.  According to the church I would have grounds because W apparently did not enter the contract of matrimony with the intention of holding up her side of the bargain.  There would be no reason keeping me from being truly free to pursue an appropriate relationship and marriage still in the good graces of the church.  Do I detest annulments and the fact that they are making it easier?  Absolutely!!  I think just this fact is influencing individuals to either forsake or never intend to keep their vows and marriage is becoming more a formality than a life-long commitment anymore.

The only reason I would pursue an annulment is if W continues to abandon me and shows no sign of ever committing again.  In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family.  Even if I accept that MLC is temporary (which it isn't in all cases) then it may be 7-10 years and by that time W and I will be very different people.  Is it fair for me to wait 10 years to see if W is going to change her mind or not?  I would not expect her to do the same.  Were she not pursuing legal channels to end our M and therefore free her to do whatever in her mind then I would likely feel much differently.  But the fact remains that one person cannot make a marriage.  We could say vows to Tom Cruise or Britney Spears but that doesn't make them our spouses as they would not be committed to us.  It's the same principle with our spouses, who if they decide to relinquish their vows and move forward as our spouses no longer then they are no longer our spouses and (controversial here) may never have been in the first place.  I do question sometimes whether W ever was committed to me or if I was just convenient to have kids by. 

So, I AM opposed to D and to annulments being easier to get but ironically it might be the best choice for me and the only way for me to be able to move on and still retain the good graces of the church I have no intention of abandoning.  And as far as the place of the church, I believe that St. Peter was the first Pope and that the church dates back to Jesus' time.  That's pretty old school, but then again I'm a pretty old school guy in most ways (countdown to DGU disputing that 10.....9.......

Sorry if I ramble.  I'm up with only 2-3 hours sleep because of a headache.  Hopefully can go back to bed soon once it subsides.

[Dontgiveup]

I abhor the concept of divorce and annulment EXCEPT in the case of grave abuse or outright abandonment (which is, in itself, an abuse).  I stand behind that no one should have to live in an abusive relationship, but also that no one should have to be treated in such a way as many of us have and continue to be.

As Christians, Jesus is our example.  What did he tell us?  It's possible Jesus felt quite abandoned when at the cross he said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". 

To me, I am married until the day I die but to her (who is also a cradle Catholic) it doesn't work that way.

Or at least to her it doesn't work that way in her current emotional state.

According to the church I would have grounds because W apparently did not enter the contract of matrimony with the intention of holding up her side of the bargain.

She has been in MLC your entire marriage? 

There would be no reason keeping me from being truly free to pursue an appropriate relationship and marriage still in the good graces of the church.

Other posters have made some points to you on this certainly worthy of consideration, but of course you must decide what you believe.

The only reason I would pursue an annulment is if W continues to abandon me and shows no sign of ever committing again.

Well, you won't know if she "ever" commits again until the end of her life.

In these whole 15 months she has not once expressed one bit of regret or intent to ever return to the family.

Thundarr....really?  I doubt there is a collective jaw drop on this forum that your wife has not expressed regret by month 15 of MLC.

Even if I accept that MLC is temporary (which it isn't in all cases) then it may be 7-10 years and by that time W and I will be very different people.

True, and since it's a developmental process, it's quite possible that being "different" may even result in being more mature and emotionally developed.

Is it fair for me to wait 10 years to see if W is going to change her mind or not?

I don't know if Jesus said to follow his teachings only when you think life is treating you fairly.

I do question sometimes whether W ever was committed to me or if I was just convenient to have kids by.

If this were true, it's possible she would have either left you soon after childbirth or simply had children with you outside of marriage.

[Thundarr]

DGU, once again you speak in absolutes.  As if she is DEFINITELY in MLC and as if she will DEFINITELY want to return to the M some day.  You also speak of her "present emotional state" as if any emotional state can be constant and enduring for years.  Emotional states are fluid and ever-changing, often with elements of several different emotions revolving and evolving.  They are not just being one way for months or years at a time.

I'm a stander, but do I accept that there will come a time that I will no longer feel the desire/ need/ logic in standing?  Of course.  I have said many times that I will not stand forever.  Is there a chance that my W WILL change her mind and want to reconcile and return to the M?  Of course.  There is a chance in any relationship breakup that one or both parties will change their mind and want to return to the relationship.  But, you speak as if the odds were in favor of her wanting to return and once again act as H and W.  I believe that line of thinking is dangerous, my friend.  I see the importance of comforting the newbies with the fact that what is going on MAY not be permanent as when we are in those first few months we are incapable of making rational decisions and the fear of seeking a new relationship or lifestyle is overwhelming.  But, once we have been on this journey for awhile we begin to evaluate the facts of what is going on and the "big picture" independent of what "emotional state" we perceive our spouses to be in.  The "big picture" is that my W has taken sufficient action to end my marriage and your XW is now married to someone else.  At the end of the day both of our cases may end up being permanent.  We don't know and we have to make a decision about what is best in each of our lives.  Perhaps we are both meant to move on to other, more fulfilling relationships and perhaps our W/ XW will find their happiness elsewhere or stick it out and make it work regardless.  Even from the inside of this mess you have to admit that sometimes it is best to throw in the towel (even a yellow one and cut your losses in order to win again some other day.  As Rookie said on my thread, though, I don't have an ounce of quit in me but I may have to find one in order to salvage my children and myself.

I don't mean to be negative, DGU, but rather realistic.  We are not newbies and are either at or nearing a point to where we can look at things objectively.  Most on here, LT and DB will not have their spouses return.  RCR has said that many times.  I don't want a D and would do anything in my power to prevent it.  You know that.  But, it is beyond my power and what I'm left with is 'Where do I go from here?"  Do I want my W to come back?  I would give everything I own just for one more loving embrace from her.  I see her several times a week and she is so close but yet a million miles away.  I want nothing more than to feel her love once more before I die, but to be blunt that may never happen.  Perhaps she is not MLC and perhaps she HAS moved on.  Perhaps I'm like the lone patron sitting in the diner that has closed permanently and waiting for someone to take my order.  How long would you sit in that diner before you realize the power is off, the doors locked and everyone has gone home?  Would you sit and wait at the table for the original owner to possibly open it back up someday?  Or would you stay there until you starved to death while telling yourself "People who close businesses sometimes try to re-open them."  I prefer not to starve.

When I reach the day that I believe my M really is over for good and that the odds of her returning are too remote, or when my limits are reached and I no longer WANT my W back then I will pursue an annulment.  Does that make me a bad person?  Hell no!!  I didn't and would not have left her.  She left me, discarded like trash as so many of us have been, and made use of the resources she has at her disposal to terminate any bond she has with me other than the kids.  I'm not her H anymore, just her "Baby Daddy."  If she ever wants me to be more than that again she had best act soon.