[underpressure]

This IS HEROS' SPOUSE  and the philosophy here from what I have studied is that MLC ends and the likelihood is VERY good that they will want to return to the marriage, but in many cases the LBSer has moved on. RCR's reason d'etre for this site is to maybe change those stats, that more people will be encouraged to "stand" and be ready for the day that their MLCer wakes up.

Jim Conway's research also says the same..over 30 years of studying MLC.

I really appreciate this position. Thank-you.

I was not raised catholic. I have ancestors of catholic faith and many other christian forms. I myself have felt I was either agnostic or gnostic most of my life. Whatever that means now! I married a Catholic. His mother refused to accept me because my husband had been married twice before with no annulments. I believe he may have tried to get his first wife to get an annulment to please his mother (she was married when they met). It's a bloody mess.

But I am standing for my marriage. I told him: I am going Catholic on your as*. I am perfectly happy to be Catharine of Aragon, embrasing my Catholic past, etc. Why? We weren't even married in a church! But it doesnt matter. I have a child. I know that my husband is my partner deep down...somewhere in there is the person God wants me to be with. And I have to prove that I can survive his personality disorder where other women could not. I will stand for the marriage. He can make it through this. He can heal. I will wait. There is nothing in the world of more importance than these sacraments. I get that.

But what a mess...we tried to do the annulment thing for him for both his first and second marriages. He started the process. It was difficult. But he could have done it. I think mentally he just couldnt revisit those marriages and so we never finished the application. This really reveals how much suffering he still endures over his first marriages. He has not resolved any of it. And as his spouse, I will try to help him even if it means letting go.

[Covenant for Life]

Saving Grace,

As a non-Catholic who has received counsel about my stand for marriage restoration from a Catholic priest, my opinion is that the Catholic Church holds the marriage covenant in higher regard than Protestant denominations do.  In fact, my discussions with a priest showed that Catholics still adhere to Christ's teaching that marriage after a divorce is adultery.

That said, the whole concept of an annulment did not emanate from our Lord and is just not Biblical.  Whether one submits the proper paperwork and has an annulment granted or not doesn't change the fact that man (clergy in the Catholic Church) NOT GOD invented the entire process.  Nowhere in the 8 main scriptures where Jesus and/or Paul gives us the Lord's commands on marriage and divorce is annulment ever mentioned.

And yes, ALL Christian denominations have man-made rules which do not line up with God's Word; which is why it is so important to read 
scripture for ourselves and not just accept whatever our particular church teaches.  Clergy are sinners just like we are and make denominational rules for all sorts of reasons.  But, if those rules do not line up with the Word, then we need to follow Jesus and NOT the man made fallacy.

[Thundarr]

SG - Excellent post, and I agree completely.  The original intent of the thread was to facilitate a discussion between the many Catholic members here and how they felt about how the church (the local one, at least) was working to make it easier to get an annulment.  A few years ago I didn't even know what that word really meant, but in many ways it has become something I have to face now whether I want to or not.  I'll link an article that explains in a little more plain English what an annulment really is.  "What God has joined no man can tear asunder" is not overridden, but rather the determination from the tribunal was that a "marriage" never happened in the first place due to one party's lack of intent or ability to consent for one of 4 reasons.  According to my priest friend, I could qualify for one based on my W being too immature at the time to commit to what matrimony really means.  If she had unresolved issues that prevented her from upholding her commitment, then her commitment was invalid.  We shall see what time brings, but make no mistake that I DO NOT WANT D OR ANNULMENT.  In fact I would make any sacrifice necessary to prevent that, but I am only stating that annulment may be a last resort for me if my marriage is over for good.

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-annulment.html

DGU - Points well-taken, but I think you may have missed my meaning or I wasn't clear enough.  If I continue to assume that my W is MLC and if I continue to assume that it is a temporary condition, then my decision to stand is already made as that is what I committed to when we married.  But, what if she isn't and there really was more going on in my relationship than I realized and what if she has no intention of coming back (and never does).  My belief system is the same as X, SG, LC and many others here in that I have every intention of honoring my marital vows but my intentions may be a moot point at this time.  I have no interest in living like a monk if my W has abandoned me and makes it permanent.  Will she be living in adultery?  According to the church, yes, and I am left to wonder if she realizes this and whether or not it matters to her at this point.  I am somewhat uplifted by the fact that she mentioned wanting to spend a couple days at a monastery last month as it gives me hope that God is guiding her somewhat in all of this.  I AM NOT taking any kind of easy way out, as I believe X was assuming, but rather I have to accept the possible finality of all of this and accept what might lie in my future.

[SavingGrace]

My dearest T,
You are burdening your soul with a heavy dose of spiritual matters that you need not carry right now. Currently you are dealing with way too many unpredictable behaviors presented by your W. She is not a well woman and talks of D, which may be imminent, are not bringing you comfort to your afflicted state; and certainly the whole matter of annulments brings further confusion.

We both know and understand as Catholics that marriage is sacred. It is a holy institution that has been elevated to a sacrament, a sacrament like Holy Orders and our vocation like the priesthood but is marriage. This reality of our faith as we bear the overwhelming responsibility of fulfilling our role in the salvific walk in the Lord as married persons brings about a sense of honor and duty to such a holy commitment. When this commitment is destroyed by one party by the sin of adultery or other grave matters such as abuse, it is not just the betrayal of our spouse that is lost but the rending and tearing of a vow and commitment that was made in God’s name, before Him and in front of His people. This is a sorrowful and painful sin for those who endure it and for those who have lost their marriage to such destruction, and a spiritual destruction for that matter as well.

In light of all this, even though we are “two who have become one flesh”in the union of our marriage, we do not know the state of our offending spouse’s soul before God. By church law we know they are or will be living in adultery if they live with the OP or marry. It is not for us to judge their state before God. We must look to our own hearts and minds and relationship with the Lord and let God deal with our spouses. We must submit them to prayer but we you should not wonder if they realize what they are doing, especially for those of us whose spouses are afflicted with a changed personality, MLC or mental, emotional or psychological instability.

Will she be living in adultery?  According to the church, yes, and I am left to wonder if she realizes this and whether or not it matters to her at this point.

I daresay your W probably doesn’t realize half the things she does and the thought of living in adultery post divorce is not even an issue with her.

T, if you get divorced, deal with that very big issue first and heal from those incredible deep wounds. The Lord will lead you to the right time if and when you are to pursue discussions about annulments. However, you need to be healed and made whole as a man and as a husband before you can even consider advancing to the next level. In that time, you have NO idea what God can do to restore your wife, your marriage or your family. And if you must continue your life without your wife by your side, you will be a man of honor and a man of God for having been purged through the fire of his love. You will not have to live like a monk. God will bless your life richly. You just don’t know how at this point. So take one day at a time and let His will unfold.

[Dontgiveup]

DGU - Points well-taken, but I think you may have missed my meaning or I wasn't clear enough.

But, what if she isn't and there really was more going on in my relationship than I realized and what if she has no intention of coming back (and never does). 

My belief system is the same as X, SG, LC and many others here in that I have every intention of honoring my marital vows but my intentions may be a moot point at this time.

Three sentences....three "buts"  

I have no interest in living like a monk

I understand this is a primary motivator for you.  The book "His Needs, Her Needs" addresses this.

if my W has abandoned me and makes it permanent.

When will you know if it's permanent? (and yes, as I alluded to before, the end of her life is the correct answer)

Will she be living in adultery?  According to the church, yes, and I am left to wonder if she realizes this and whether or not it matters to her at this point.

From RCR (I've posted this to you a few times)
Conscious decision making is not part of MLC—if they make conscientious decisions it’s not MLC. If they choose to not avoid; it’s not MLC.

I am somewhat uplifted by the fact that she mentioned wanting to spend a couple days at a monastery last month as it gives me hope that God is guiding her somewhat in all of this.

Thundarr....your goal is speed.  From your earlier post.
"If she ever wants me to be more than that again she had best act soon."

From RCR's article on Acceptance
If your goal is speed, it will fail.

I AM NOT taking any kind of easy way out, as I believe X was assuming, but rather I have to accept the possible finality of all of this and accept what might lie in my future.

So how do you know if it's final, or just possibly final?
 

[Thundarr]

So, DGU, how long would you suggest one live with possibilities rather than probabilities.  Anything is possible but we do not live our lives based on that, well at least the only ones I know who do are the ones who play the lottery religiously and truly believe that they will win so there is no sense in planning for retirement.  Even if they played 10 tickets every day the probability that they will ever win enough to live the rest of their life on is astronomically low.  Do you live your life with the possibility that you may win the lottery or do you go to work every day and life your life as if you won't.  I foresee you saying you don't play the lottery but you catch my drift.

Sometimes I wonder if it may have been best for all of us to just assume from day one that this is permanent and that our spouses are not coming back.  Perhaps then we would all be able to detach and move forward in our lives, and then if our ex-spouses decide they want to come back then we could evaluate where we are in our lives at the time.  Sometimes I wonder if we are simply holding on to ghosts or clutching at shadows.  I do have faith and acknowledge that God can act in both our lives as well as our spouses but then again it may be his will that it is over, or that it never was.  Perhaps we are all off the path he wants us on and the correct road will not cross paths with our spouses again.  Perhaps mine, yours and many other marriages here have run their course.  What then for those left behind?  Are we to deprive ourselves of intimate companionship, love and everything else our spouses stole when they left?  How.......illogical.

[Dontgiveup]

So, DGU, how long would you suggest one live with possibilities rather than probabilities.
From my earlier post
I try to make those decisions based on my belief system.   

Are we to deprive ourselves of intimate companionship, love and everything else our spouses stole when they left?  How.......illogical.
And yet, ironically (to use one of the words you like to use) this thread is on the subject of your.......faith.

[Thundarr]

But, what is faith?  Faith in what?  Faith that our marriages will be restored or that God will bring another wonderful person into our lives for us to share our journey with?  Faith that what has happened is for the best and that our marriage has run its course?  How are we to interpret what our faith is telling us?  It is subjective, my friend.

[Dontgiveup]

But, what is faith?

Check with Webster......oh, and there "might" be an article from RCR about it.  You can check if you are interested.

Faith in what?

Or who?  (or is it whom?)

Faith that our marriages will be restored or that God will bring another wonderful person into our lives for us to share our journey with?

You tell me.....is the Bible a story of reconciliation?

Faith that what has happened is for the best and that our marriage has run its course?

Does the Bible talk about God's best for us, or does it talk about marriages that have run their course?
 
How are we to interpret what our faith is telling us?

See above

[Ready2Transform]

Sometimes I wonder if it may have been best for all of us to just assume from day one that this is permanent and that our spouses are not coming back.  Perhaps then we would all be able to detach and move forward in our lives, and then if our ex-spouses decide they want to come back then we could evaluate where we are in our lives at the time.

Yes.  It's called "Living as if..."!!