[hummingbird]

hi stayed, 

thank you so much for your response and for sharing your wisdom with me, you really present it all so well.  i am fascinated by this discussion as it helps me understand how my W could have changed so drastically and not seem to see it at all. 

is there anything the LBS does that helps the MLC reach remorse or is it all their journey?  sometimes i see glimpses of my old W but then she seems to run right back into anger.  she is with an OW too...  do you think that changes the progression from guilt to remorse?

and she has a history of physical abuse and some neglect as a child and i wonder if that stops her from facing things... because she would need to face how she felt growing up and that would be scary. 

thank you, stayed..   

and hi, old pilot, glad to see you here dear friend! 

[StillStanding]

If your H has lied, deceived and committed adultery, your H is an abuser. We can use euphemisms such as MLCer but we are talking about people who have crossed the line into abusive behaviour. If you let an abuser into your life or back into your life, then gambling is exactly what you are doing. Gambling with your mental and physical health and your wellbeing.

That is completely unfair to the people out there who have had affairs and worked things out with their spouse, and never strayed again. I've been in a room with 20 other couples, listening to couples tell them from their own experience that you can make your marriage work, even in the face of adultery. And most of them do make it work.

Yes, there are abusive and selfish people who will cheat because they feel they deserve whatever they can get away with. But many people who have affairs do so because they haven't learned yet what it takes to make a relationship work. Maybe they came from screwed-up families who cheated on each other or got divorced and remarried multiple times. Maybe they bought into the lie that marriages are "happily ever after" or that their spouses will just magically meet all of their needs without being asked, and what that doesn't happen they put the blame on their partners.

And it's got to be hard to go to someone whom you have repeatedly lied to and cheated on, and ask for forgiveness. Most people wouldn't bother; they just chalk it up to "lessons learned."

Painting all cheaters with the same brush is disrespectful, both to the ones who want to make amends and to the people who choose to forgive them.

[honour]

That is completely unfair to the people out there who have had affairs committed adultery and worked things out with their spouse, and never strayed abused again.

They came to terms with the abuse.

I am all for forgiveness. But we must tread very, very carefully. We must be aware of what we are dealing with.  Adultery (or cheating, if you want to use a softer term) is abuse whether it occurs at mid-life or any other time.

Painting all cheaters with the same brush is disrespectful

All cheating is abuse.
The "crisis" part is a theory. The adultery part is the fact.

The reader may be asking, "why does he keep using the word adultery? I don't like it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Why can't he say MLC or crisis or affair or cheater?"
I use the word adultery intentionally because it is a horrible word. When my solicitor was filling out the divorce papers  (for the record I didn't choose the divorce) and had to use the word adultery he said, "adultery is a horrible word." It made him cringe. I agree with him, it is a horrible word, it made me cringe too. He didn't write on the form, "grounds for divorce: MLC" or "grounds for divorce: depression" or "grounds for divorce: 47 years old and confused."

And it's got to be hard to go to someone whom you have repeatedly lied to and cheated on, and ask for forgiveness. Most people wouldn't bother

Is it because it is hard that they don't bother, or they don't bother because they do not feel guilt or remorse? Many of the accounts give the impression that these people have thrown off "the shackles" and are reinventing themselves. It could be liberation they feel and never guilt or remorse. We are told they come through stronger and more self-assured, well if that is the case and if they are then remorseful,  they will find it less hard than we think to ask for forgiveness. But it would appear that many don't think they have done anything wrong or if they do think they have done something wrong, they believe the "wrong doing" was necessary to set themselves free.

Painting all cheaters with the same brush is disrespectful, both to the ones who want to make amends and to the people who choose to forgive them.

All cheating is abuse.
I have the utmost respect for the poor suffering souls who come here in shock, anguish and trauma with their lives turned upside down; I am one. But I have no respect for adulterers (cheaters if you prefer). I have compassion for these lost souls but not respect.
I have forgiven my W. She is a victim of her childhood but that does not mean I have to be a victim of it too.

Implying that people should respect their abuser runs the risk of setting the victim up for more of the same. Vulnerable people can come here and read some of what is written and conclude they must be bad people if they are not able to tolerate their abuser abusing them. That is dangerous. Take for example victims of domestic abuse who will often say that their H is abusing/being violent/cheating/verbally bullying because, "I don't love him enough" or "I don't love him the right way." They blame themselves when they should not.
Let's reserve our respect for the brave and courageous souls who come here hanging on to their sanity, remaining solid examples of good-living to their children, family and community whilst in the midst of the emotional carnage of the aftermath of the total and utter disrespect shown to them by people they trusted and cared for.
That does not mean we can not keep our compassion for the lost at the same time.

I know you mean well StillStanding, as do I, despite some of my posts perhaps sounding harsh. We are all trying to make sense of the seemingly senseless. It is tragic what has happened to our Ws and we would give anything to have them emotionally healthy; we would give anything to have them reach that place of wanting to seek forgiveness but it's not our Ws who come here seeking support, it's the Left Behind Spouse that does. Let's get the LBS back on their feet; let's get the LBS stronger and more assured. Let's get the LBS stronger and wiser and more capable than they ever could have imagined they could be before any of this began. With the LBS healed and strong, should the abuser feel remorse and seek forgiveness, then forgiveness can be given from a position of inner strength and security and not from the neediness of co-dependence; the forgiveness will be genuine and selfless.

Sincerely
honour

[Covenant for Life]

The very reason that infidelity and divorce are so accepted in our communities is because we use words and terminology that try to soften the blow. Even Christians and the clergy that are supposed to be leading us down the narrow path are accepting of what God clearly says is unacceptable.

It IS adultery.  Shout it from the rooftops and proclaim what is truth.  People who commit adultery are adulterers or harlots according to the Bible.  They are not affair partners.  An affair is an 'event.'  Adultery is a sin against God and against the very spouse that the adulterer promised to love and cherish.   In old testament times, a man or woman guilty of ADULTERY would have been stoned to death.  Today, many laugh it off, make an excuse for it, or claim that it isn't so bad because everyone is doing it.

Certainly adultery can be forgiven.  But, our MLCers - many who are also adulterers - need to stop their adultery, repent of their adultery, and ask God  and those who were hurt by their sin for forgiveness.  Adulterers will not enter the kingdom of heaven.  My prayer for all of our spouses is that they do repent of their sin of adultery.  That is why I believe many of us continue to stand. 

We all need to stop sugar coating the sin of adultery.  Adultery is a horrible word. So is the abominable action it represents. 

[LettingGo]

Wow, Honour... JUDGE MUCH?  Adultery is UGLY... and it is a sin... it's hurtful, destructive, and ABUSIVE... even if you aren't aware of the secret adultery!!! Lucky for YOU that you are FREE of sin, and therefore, can cast the first stone.... Good luck with that!!!

I'm one that objects to the term "affair" as it sounds "romantic" and it's NOT... it's UGLY.... but LIFE has a way of teaching us lessons and humbling us... especially when we wield the stick of self righteousness.

Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment that MLC is a "theory".... you need a reality check. If you aren't convinced, then why are you here? Oh.... right.... you're probably a SKEPTIC.... thanks for nothing!! The world is full of skeptics on MLC... and it is also full of ACCEPTANCE of adultery... we "get" that.... but perhaps OUR spouses have fallen down the Rabbit Hole... if yours hasn't, and she is just a CHEATER, then I guess your judgement of character wasn't as good as you thought it was....

[With Gods Help!]

Guilt comes from the mind and is the result of self-judgment and a desire to control, while remorse comes from the heart and leads to true change...............

and this.........

Guilt and remorse, two different ways of responding to the ego. Guilt establishes that sin is real, judges it, and then through its expectation that we be punished for what we have done, ensures that the future will be like the past. Thus is time made real as well as the individual self, along with the thought of separation that is their source. Remorse, on the other hand, sees the decision for the ego as simply a mistake to be corrected. By doing so, remorse over having hurt others as well as ourselves undoes the sin-laden past, releasing it to correction. Relationships are now about them, instead of us and our special needs. As an expression of forgiveness, therefore, remorse becomes the means of forgiving ourselves and returning home.

Found both these not sure where they were in my files but they both apply to MLCERS........xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Trustandlove]

That is an excellent quote, WGH, just one bit that doesn't seem to make much sense:

  thus is time made real as well as the individual self, along with the thought of separation that is their source.

It's one of those sentences where you understand the individual words, but when you read it you realise you have no idea how they fit together, much less how it applies to the topic being discussed....

[Trustandlove]

I just wrote this on AnneJ's thread; thought I'd put it up here as well.

A book that has helped me greatly during this process is David Burns' "Feeling Good".  He talks about guilt in one part of it, not a whole chapter, but I think he's spot on.

The quote that encapsulates it is: 

"Rather than facilitating your recognition of your error, guilt engages you in a coverup operation.  You want to close your ears to any criticism.  You can't bear to be in the wrong because if it feels so terrible."

What he means is that you keep on doing things to justify your actions, to cover up your guilt, rather than expressing remorse and having empathy for how your actions affected someone else, and making the necessary amends.   That covering up only deepens the problem, and that is where many of our MLCers are. 

He does emphasise the necessity of "developing a strategy for correcting the problem", along with "identifying that an error has occurred", i.e. admitting the transgression and making amends.   

Now this book is a CBT book, so he mostly talks about letting go of unnecessary guilt (punishing yourself for not pouring the correct amount of milk in your tea, for example), but this very concise explanation rings true. 

[Quiet Strength]

Wow! I will definitely be referring back to this post when/if H ever comes around. Thanks for posting this Stayed!

[FindingJules]

Just wanted to say that I had gotten a lot out of this topic at several points during my journey so far.  But yesterday I was actually able to use it with my S13 who is struggling with Autism and Puberty and his parents separating all at the same time (WAY TOO MANY CHANGES for him!).  He had a bad behavior and threw a classmates calculator against the wall (one of those expensive graphics ones...).  After the fog cleared (yeah...it's kind of the same....) he didn't even realize it was a calculator he had thrown and felt really bad.  Told the counselor that was talking with him about it that he was just a MONSTER (seriously...used that word....felt a little dejavu).  I asked him why he felt like he was a monster...because he damaged property of a friend of his and hurt her feelings.  I asked if he felt bad for it - yes, did he intend to do it - no, did he intend to do it again - no.  Then it's not Monster (or guilt), it's remorse.  Remorse = good and Monster = bad.  I pulled up this post (he often needs to SEE the reseach I am telling him) and let him read the definitions.  It made COMPLETE sense to him...he hugged and kissed me and thanked me.  Wow. 

So, thanks for the info...in more ways than just MLC, it helps!