[stayed]

Sorry to hear that Guanacowife.  I hope you are eating better now.  I developed severe kidney problems and was told it was caused by sudden and severe, weight loss.  We have to look after ourselves, as nobody else is going to do it for us.  A healthy person deals much better with whatever comes their way.  You are going to need your wits about you dear. 

Hugs Stayed

[being a lighthouse]

THis is interesting, it is about contrition and regret  (I hope it's ok to post the link? )
http://www.manipulative-people.com/contrition-behavior-and-therapy/

[stayed]

Most definitely it is OK... hugs Stayed

[stayed]

Being a lighthouse, here is what SCREAMED out at me, when I read this article...

I also can’t count the times that those affected by another’s misdeeds were so swayed by the wrongdoer’s display of tears or a claim of regret that they unfortunately helped “enable” that person to avoid real change.

This is the one thing that really concerns me.  I see some very, very kind, compassionate people, giving their spouses the benefit of the doubt over and over again.  Many dislike seeing ANYBODY appear to be hurting from the consequences of their actions, that they let off the hook way to soon and easily.  As this article says, true contrition, which seems to be a level above REMORSE (which is all I thought I was aiming for, but after reading this, I confess, I was looking for TRUE CHANGE, with sincere, honest, heartfelt remorse), is a willingness to change and do whatever it takes to succeed. 

More of us should be looking for that, rather then feeling all sad and sorry for the state our MLCer's have managed to get themselves into.  We seem to forget, our spouses had the same choices we had.  They CHOSE to go nuts, they chose to have an affair and they chose to abandon, forsake and betray their spouse, their children, their family and MOSTLY THEMSELVES. 

I think we owe it to them to except nothing less then true remorse and an OBVIOUS attempt at contrition, an ongoing attempt quite frankly.  Like us, their work is never done either and to be honest, they have a hell of lot further to go, then we do.

Hugs Stayed

[being a lighthouse]

YES !!!!!
I have really taken to heart the things you have written on my thread recently , all of which resonate with my breakthrough in the summer about not accepting/enabling  "bad" behaviour from my h. I did. I enabled it through my tolerance.
I want to see contrition,I cannot accept any less.  and only then can we begin to build, if at all. I am still getting projection / monster throwing things back at me because I used to take it.
I have developed a force field.
This article helped me a lot.

[stayed]

I was impressed with this article as well being a light house.  I was an enabler too, much to my chagrin.  It seemed like we were always at each others throats, so I stopped.  He obviously took that as capitulation.  I guess he was right.

I do not capitulate anymore.  I do understand that nobody gets EVERYTHING they want... but there are some things that I could not negotiate on.

Hugs Stayed

[Bewildered]

A friend of mine is a psychiatrist and was telling me about the following;  when I charted to her about MLC ......

All humans are susceptible to the "Illusion of Truth" effect -- The more we hear something, the more we believe it's true.

And that in regard to MLC or any crisis in a human being this is the most difficult part for the one in crisis and the ones playing a role in their version of the truth ( fantasy) and in her view the most damaging for a LBS is to have a clinging boomerang !!

Harder to accept what has happened and forgive as 'the truth' is too mixed up and confused to straighten it out so I asked her well how can you get thought this - she said total forgiveness, compassion and the will to start from today and let the past stay in the past .. This is for the LBS as otherwise anger will remain and no amount of remorse can fix this and contrition will not be able to naturally occur as the LBS will hold back the MLCer from finally processing what happened to them and its not the LBS role to know everything about the MLCer as that in itself is something that could hamper growth.
MLCers if trapped by LBS who watch their every move (obviously ) will not allow the natural process of healing to happen - each party needs to heal independently  and start a new marriage/ relationship with lessons learnt.

So what do you think??

[Trustandlove]

I found that food for thought

its not the LBS role to know everything about the MLCer as that in itself is something that could hamper growth. 

and the bit about anger remaining if you don't completely forgive.

My first response is that this does make sense.  Although the LBS does need to know some in order to process it precisely so that it CAN be left in the past -- you'd have to get past the point of having things come up to hit you. 

[Voyager]

Hi B

Really interesting stuff. To me MLC is an identity crises, not an illness as such. That said there are elements of depression in it. I think there are other periods in life when this can happen, not just at mid life or adolescence but more and more I see people going through identical behaviour to MLC in their late twenties and early thirties. But in theory it can happen at any point.

RCR used a good analogy with the idea of Humpty Dumpty, falling off the wall and breaking in pieces. Some of the pieces remain large enough to allow the MLCer to function, go to work for example, but because the other pieces are missing they can not be entire whole people.

So eventually they have to either glue some old pieces together, and/or make some new ones, find the right places for them to fit and then become whole again.
That's an enormous task and its not surprising many of them choose just to function with the pieces they have left, even if they are raggedy and disjointed.

For those with CB's they have a ringside seat at this process, and the urge to help the MLCer find some of the missing bits must be overwhelming. But the whole point of an identity crises is that for a long time the very person who is trying to help, is a big part of the problem in the MLCers mind.

But to rehash an old phrase, it is the MLCers identity crises, they have to go through this and be left alone to do it as much as possible. It's hard sometimes to believe in this process, especially if you are witnessing this on a daily basis, it's so hard to be able to detach and let go.

so I asked her well how can you get thought this - she said total forgiveness, compassion and the will to start from today and let the past stay in the past .. This is for the LBS as otherwise anger will remain and no amount of remorse can fix this and contrition will not be able to naturally occur as the LBS will hold back the MLCer from finally processing what happened to them

This reminds me of the old dilemma, forgiving, but wanting to have some sort of accountability from the MLCer. How often do we want them to say sorry, how many times do we want to see acts of contrition? And if the LBS hasn't been able to forgive and let go of anger, will that be something expected from the returning MLCer for ever? Timing is essential here too, until the MLCer is ready, holding to account might make us feel better temporarily but won't have the impact we are looking for.

Can/should we really take the moral high ground? We didn't have the crises, and yes the MLCer has to recognise the damage done. But I fear that what could happen is rather than have a new marriage based in equality we could end up holding the past over the MLCers head like a sword of Damocles.

I don't want to have a relationship like that, I know it's very difficult to do, its a hope, but I don't think I could have my h back if I wasn't ready to forgive and trust again. He would have to take responsibility for his part, but I would also have to take responsibility too for actively forgiving and being compassionate and willing to let go. Otherwise what sort of a relationship do I think I will have??

And I should be prepared to be remorseful too. Sorry for things I did within the old marriage, pre MLC. Maybe they were more sins of omission and neglect than actual acts, taking for granted, becoming self absorbed, not listening. Stuff that the standing time has shown me I needed to fix in me.


If the MLCer returns not all of these things will be in place at that time, but there needs to be a commitment to work on them from both sides.

Is any of that easy? no in some ways I can see it's even harder to do and go through than most parts of this journey. I quail at the thought of whether I could do that.

 I'm at a point where I'm settled in myself, I can see that working to forgiveness in my current state is probably a lot simpler than doing it with my spouse living back with me. But I really would want to aim for trust, compassion and forgiveness, for my own sake and his. If I found I wasn't able to, I couldn't go on with it.

 I can't pre-empt myself here, I have done that too many times before, told myself I was done etc, or I was deeply committed to a restored marriage, only to find that the sands keep shifting. Now I just try to concentrate on the step I am on, before I'm ready to take the next one.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


 

[Freddygone]

Guilt vs Remorse,
To me it seems we should not expect anything. But to move forward with this relationship we need to see Remorse.
But I don't think we should hold our breath as it could be a long time coming. This is why in this Forum we are told to look after ourselves and the rest (should) follow. But if it does not follow at least we have improved ourselves.
As most people acknowledge, we had a part to play in this, but the roots of MLC go way back, even before we met our spouse.
We can't be held completely responsible but maybe we helped cause a trigger or maybe it was just a sequence of events which brought these brain programs into effect.
Whatever the situation, in some MLC there will be no Guilt and then probably no Remorse and then we must act accordingly.
Certainly it is unlikely for Guilt or Remorse while ever there is an OP feeding the MLC.

Where there is Guilt, maybe there will be Remorse and we must be patient, calm and wait and watch.
Where there is remorse, we should be understanding and stand behind our boundary lines.

Maybe there is a sequence, from awareness, to Guilt, to Remorse?  This is how I see it and understand it. But what do I know? I am still watching it.
Some OP's are needy and/or Gold Diggers.