[JAG]

I have been reading and re-reading the articles and I have a question...what if our Hs are monstering with their mothers? What if all of the demon-projection is going to his mother and not to his wife? What is that all about? As I read the articles I am realizing how it is his mother that is getting all of his negativity and is getting text book MLCer? Why and where does that leave the wife? 

[Slow Fade]

Wow Jag, my h is doing the same thing. He is monstering about his mother in front of me and MY mother! Holy crap! I would be interested in other thoughts.......

[I believe in angels]

Hi I think you will find that a lot of their 'issues' are to do with their mother. My mil gets a lot grief, and to be honest she deserves a lot of it. You will probably find as well that they will monster at anyone else rather than you once you detach from their drama. X

[Rollercoasterider]

Well, of course it may have a lot to do with mommy specific issues, but it could also be about who he can project at--that is it may about who accepts his projections.
The Summer the year after Bomb Drop (2006) Sweetheart left home to live with the alienator again. After about 2 weeks he began his typical pursuit, but I was not accepting projections. We did stuff together--mostly biking--and I could do no wrong. Seriously!
Our nephew turned 6 in August and he got banned from the birthday party. Well, not really, but the alienator was banned and Sweetheart was told he could come alone oe bring his wife--me!   Afew weeks his dad followed the example and banned him (same conditions) from his aunt's birthday party.

I think it was his brother who initiated the banning--or at least he delievered the message. But it was our poor sister-in-law who was the bad guy. They didn't see Monster like we do because they vcut him off and so he wasn't around them much, but she was still the object of projection. Sweetheart was confiding in me about her; he told me he thought she was bipolar because she turned angry on him so quickly. I roared with laughter and shared it with her.

An MLCer will typically try to project on the spouse first and the next in line is probably going to be the closese opposite sex relative--mom, sister... or hopefully the alienator. The alienator is the eventual projection--and hopefully the final for MLC...rejoice when it gets to her! The object needs to somehow accept the projections--and this is not the Acceptance sort of accept, it's the opposite. If you argue and defend, it feeds Monster which feeds the projection.

[toughtimes]

Hi jag,

This is a great discussion.

My feelings are that Hs often have mother issues. In my case my H is not in contact with his mother which is what he has done in the past when things are tough. Now she doesn't contact him which is awful. I think if he was in contact with her I feel she would get monster.

There are plenty of reasons why he feels so let down by her and so I completely understand his anger and hurt at her. I feel much of that deep and suppressed anger towards his mother has been rejected at me, he sees me as being just like his mum. Maybe I was, maybe I am but I am responding to him in the way that protects me right now and that's having as little contact as possible which helps me recover. I am sure I will get to a point where I feel more comfortable with him but right now it's painful sometimes.

RCR you say you spent time with your H biking, was this straight away or did take you a while to get to this point? I'm over six months post BD and wondering if I'm on track really, if I will get to a point where I feel okay around him.
Oh no is this a hijack? Sorry jag, just struck by rcrs comment!

[Stillpraying]

My H was monster to both myself (first) and his mother.  He has no contact with her since a couple of months after he left us.

When H broke up with OW1, 5 months ago he was definitely Monster with her also.  She sent me one of the texts he sent her and it was so similar to the awful ones I got.  As they say "You wouldn't make this stuff up".

If he doesn't ghet his own way he is monster with me but he's a lot quieter these days.

[JAG]

Well, of course it may have a lot to do with mommy specific issues, but it could also be about who he can project at--that is it may about who accepts his projections.
An MLCer will typically try to project on the spouse first and the next in line is probably going to be the closese opposite sex relative--mom, sister... or hopefully the alienator. The alienator is the eventual projection--and hopefully the final for MLC...rejoice when it gets to her! The object needs to somehow accept the projections--and this is not the Acceptance sort of accept, it's the opposite. If you argue and defend, it feeds Monster which feeds the projection.

This is VERY interesting! In fact, before OW would become "public" knowledge, my H would Monster ONLY at me.  However, once his "secret" came to light, he decided to turn MONSTER towards his mother.  He currently states that he will never forgive his mother for the names she called him and the things she said about him right after we discovered OW (he believes it is her fault that everyone found out and that she should have sided with him even if she disagreed with HIS life choices)!

I believe my H will have a hard time to change his projection from his mother to the alianator because I strongly believes he goes home twice a month purposefully to get in an argument with his mom so that all of his actions and frustrations can be blamed on his mother and not on his beloved OW.  In fact, this summer, when he did not go home for about a month, he and OW broke up (he was no longer able to argue with his mom so he turned on OW).  However, this will no longer happen since he HAS to go to his parents house before visiting his kids (twice a month) and he sees OW less often because now she has moved away.  So again, I COMPLETELY agree with the above statements but I don't see how a projection can move from mother to OW.  The reason I say this is because I was able to stop conversation and hence move his Monstering towards me to his mom (only other female relative) but now we all know a mother will NEVER stop talking to her beloved son....so I guess he has made a wise choice in monstering at her and not at his wife!

Is there any way I can communicate with his mother about this? I was going to tell her that she has to zip it to NOT get monster and to have his anger go towards OW and not her....last time she got it, but I think she would rather have him argue with her because (underneath it all) negative communication with her son and arguments with her son are better than no contact at all.  What is the saying..."negative attention is better than no attention"....and we all know that his narcism comes from his mom....the apple doesn't fall far from the tree....

THATNK RCR, you are so wise!

[Rollercoasterider]

RCR you say you spent time with your H biking, was this straight away or did take you a while to get to this point? I'm over six months post BD and wondering if I'm on track really, if I will get to a point where I feel okay around him.

Bomb Drop was 20 March 2005
Moved out (to an apartment rented from a friend): 03 May 2005
Physical with alienator (and moved in with her): 28 May 2005
Divorce Filed: 09 June 2005
Said he wanted to come home: 04 August 2005 (my birthday)
Left alienator (1st time) and stopped the divorce: 24 August 2005

From the time his affair became physical until my birthday we were not hanging out. Before that, we were doing stuff together--including sex.  After he said he wanted to come home, we began hanging out again--no sex. We went jet skiing for my birthday--on the way home he said he wanted to come home. On her birthday 9 days later we went Mountain Biking--sneaking around on her.

He went back to her in late September--vame home again and left for her again the first week of October. During that month we continued to meet-up for biking--sneaking around on the alienator.

When he was gone on Summer 2006 (after a few more in-outs) we continued to meet-up for biking. I think we met up less during Winter months, and some of those coincided with me installing a No Contact, so it's hard to recall. I put up a No Contact a few times--though not well.
But in 2008 when he was out (he was home for all of 2007) it was No Contact and I was firm.

Those together activities were an important part of Paving the Way in 2005 and even in 2006--and in 2006 I wavered, going No Contact and removing it. I caved a lot--under pressure from me more than from him in 2006!   But I think that is part of the curve. Together activities, then a gradual installment of boundaries that fail, but with improvement through time. That gradualness is necessary for the slow progress of MLC.

He believes it is her fault that everyone found out and that she should have sided with him even if she disagreed with HIS life choices!

This was frustrating for me--sides. Sweetheart had a side and his sister flat out told me that it didn't matter that she didn;t approve of his actions, she would take his side because he was her brother--well she and I had never been friends anyway. But I knew it wold be that way--the whole family is like that...my friend is the other in-law, his brother's wife and she was told to stay away during the beginning and that really was best given the family dynamics.
But I didn't have a side because I refused to be against Sweetheart. My story might have a side, but in the context people use the word side to mean positions of opposition.

Family will often take the side of family--opposing the in-law. Accept that. But is it what they should do?
Of course not. They shouldn't sit in the stands with the LBS either. What they should be doing is loving unconditionally without supporting the life. Love and support the person. And eventually that is what they did. His brother and dad banning the alienator was exactly what I want families to do because they did not embrace me while Sweetheart was gone. His brother felt awfu about it, but he called and asked me not to attend our nephew's party if Sweetheart did not bring me. It was not personal, he just didn't want to make a 6-year olds birthday part about the drama in my life--and it was the right thing to do.
A month after that Sweetheart's parents took he and the alienator to dinner for Sweetheart's birthday. That was a compromise. They did not have the typical family birthday party with dinner--she was banned fgrom family gatherings. But they wanted to take their son to dinner and they accepted that the alienator came with that package--at her insistence, though I don't know if they knew that or not.
When Sweetheart was gone, I was not in contact with his family--other than his brother's wife. I did not go to family gatherings and would not have been welcome even at funerals--that is just how they are. And that is understandable given that if he was not with me he was with the alienator, there was never a time when he was just alone--he lived in his apartment for a few weeks while being with me and building up his relationship with her.
It's sort of a neutral stance, but not quite because the relationship continues with the MLCer and his family, but with boundaries. They were pretty quiet for the first year--they didn't understand. But once he had come and left 4 or 5 times, they caught on and that was when they began to apply the boundaries. I had no say in those actions--and was amazed and grateful for how they acted.
 

I believe my H will have a hard time to change his projection from his mother to the alienator because I strongly believes he goes home twice a month purposefully to get in an argument with his mom so that all of his actions and frustrations can be blamed on his mother and not on his beloved OW. In fact, this summer, when he did not go home for about a month, he and OW broke up (he was no longer able to argue with his mom so he turned on OW).
Is there any way I can communicate with his mother about this? I was going to tell her that she has to zip it to NOT get monster and to have his anger go towards OW and not her....last time she got it, but I think she would rather have him argue with her because (underneath it all) negative communication with her son and arguments with her son are better than no contact at all.

I don't know, you tell me: is there any way you can communicate with her regarding this?
I trusted Sweetheart's father and stayed back. That was our relationship. Even today I don't just go over to Sweetheart's dad's house without Sweetheart. My family is not like that, but his is. What is your relationship with her.
There was a time I broke down and called Sweetheart's dad. It was near the end in 2008 and I don't know why I did it. I think I just wanted to tell him--what was by then beyond obvous--that I did not believe in divorce and would not be supprting a divorce. Oh, I know why I did it. Sweetheart was taunting me about filing again--I think the alienator got him a meeting with a lawyer and he went while still living at home. But he taunted me that his dad would pay and so I wanted to hear from the horse's mouth. His dad chuckled, asked me what he was up to now and told me he also did not believe in divorce and that was the end of the call--less than a minute I think.
If you think his mother will not change and set boundaries and that you can talk to her, then do it. Explain about her being the object of projection and that as long as he has her, it protects the alienator from projection. She could reduce contact with him and that may help. But if she can have contact and refuse the projection--awesome! Because then it is more active rather than passive by simply being unavailable due to a lack of contact.

[JAG]

If you think his mother will not change and set boundaries and that you can talk to her, then do it. Explain about her being the object of projection and that as long as he has her, it protects the alienator from projection. She could reduce contact with him and that may help. But if she can have contact and refuse the projection--awesome! Because then it is more active rather than passive by simply being unavailable due to a lack of contact.

RCR, this really struck a cord with me.  I actually have a pretty great relationship with my MIL (strange I know).  I don't mind spending a little time with her as she is pretty funny and very nice and understanding.  We have ALWAYS had an amazing relationship and we continue to have that. My FIL has told me as recently as two weeks ago he told me that I am family (it was nice to hear). 

So last night I decided to talk to my MIL.  I told her my theory about projection and I think she got it but doesn't understand it.  The last time my H was home they didn't actually get in a full blown argument (as I thought).  What I have figured out is that they don't have terrible arguments any more.  The way my MIL put it is as follows:
He came over to where she was sitting and asked her what was wrong and she said that what did he think was wrong?.  He then told her that he simply thought and expected that she and her dad would have treated this mistake like the many mistakes he did when he was a teenager.  He continued to say that yes, he messed up and he understood if they were sad but then, eventually, they would have understood his life choice and even if they dissagreed with the way he handled the end of the marriage, they would have just accepted it....and most importantly, helped him OUT of the mess. 

So there you have it.  His entire life his parents helped him out of his mistakes (some were bigger than others).  However, now, at age 35, he expected them to treat him like they treated him then.  Yes, he messed up, but deal with it and bail me out! This entire thing was told to me by my MIL.  She then added that he is mistaken BIG time.  Yes, when he was a teenager, when he messed up they were there to bail him out.  Telling him that they were not in agreement with his choices, but at the end of the day, their words said they disapproved but their actions bailed him out. Now, that he is 35, a man, a husband, and a father, it is time that he deals with his mistakes.  They love him, but NO, they will not bail him out and support him.  She says, at age 16/17 you disapprove but bail him out because you don't want him to mess up hisentire future....but now, at age 35, his consequences don't mess up his life anymore....they mess up to innocent children....and NO, she will NOT accept his behavior.  She would accept his choice if he would deal with the situation like a man, but he is a coward!  So....in my eyes....SHE gets it.  As I told her.  Your words might have told him you disapprove and you do not accept his continued behavior, but her actions (allowing him to come home, use HER car as if it were his, cooking meals for him, washing his laundry), all point to the same mother she was. 

However, the problem that continues is his father, my FIL.  His entire relationship with his son is based on telling him NOt to do these things because they hurt his mom or, when he was young, not to do such stupid things, but then would continue treating him and giving him everything he wanted.  He never gave him ANY consequences and, to this day, with his children's abandonement and mistreatment of his mother, his father simply says....don't treat your mom like this....you are causing her pain (does not say a word about the kids).  And then what does he do? He gives his son money and...drum roll please, my H asked him to transfer over 10,000 euros to his bank account for "stuff"....and of course, my FIL doesn't bat an eyelash and will transfer them....this is after he already transfered 15.000 euros just 5 months ago (not to mention the cash he gives him and the credit card my H has that is connected to their bank account). 

So there you have it....he thought that his mom would be like his dad....continue their relationship the status quo.  Yes, he messed up, but they should just deal with it and bail him out....everyone should be just like his absent father....pay up and shut up!

Lovely isn't it? 

[Stillpraying]

Wow JAG,
I am thinking that is so like what my H's family must be like.  He didn't start any of the crazy behaviour until both our fathers passed away.
His dad ALWAYS got the 3 kids (H was the youngest) to appease their mother, keep he in good spirits and keep the peace.  He didn't stand up to his wife when she was being unreasonable.  just said that everyone should know how she is yadd yadda.

So now H doesn't speak to her or his sister  becuase they didn't pat him on the back for leaving.  I KNOW they didn't cut him off initially as they offered to support both of us and the kids but made it clear they thought he was making a mistake by leaving the marriage.  He didn't like that.  He speaks only to the brother he had barely spoken to our entire marriage becuase the brother wouldn't speak to the mother. 

His sister and mum b oth said I am like family to them .

It's good to get all these insights into the 'other side' of what is going on.