[Love being on higher grounds]

That really helped me Hb...

i dont know if h was/is physical with friend...I dont care anymore...just wish it would all come to an end!

Its like I am seeing him do/say similar things to friend as he did to me even b4 he moved out...there was alot of lying of where he was going, drinking entirely too much, making constant excuses for not being home...

with his job now, it makes the not being home part easy, but the lying and drinking are prominent again... it seems to be ALL he wants to do when he is home, and it doesnt include me or friend...

hugs,
L

[hampc0cv]

I am not understanding what d-day is, AP, WS- Walkaway spouse?, BS- Left behind spouse?, MAP-?,  Can you help me out?

[Still]

Remember his perception of me had changed; and I no longer counted; he was with me, but not with me; his emotional divorce from me was complete long before his perception of her had changed.

My question is regarding the fantasy affair.

I know there is a woman that has offered herself to my H. That has been one of his biggest turmoils throughout his MLC. He openly admitted this during BD. He told me how confused he was as he had never considered being in a relationship with anyone else. He said he felt things he couldn't understand.

This woman used to work with him. They had a close connection with several committees. They went to the same seminars together. She is an ultra-athlete and he has always had a strong admiration for female athletes that push themselves beyond limits. Last winter, he admittedly attended a party she was hosting as they are "just friends". (Sure, a friend offers herself to you knowing you have a wife and two young children at home....nice friend!) Still, he didn't seem to have the clarity to realize boundaries.

They no longer work together, but I believe they are still in contact. I honestly don't believe he would ever call this an EA. I don't know if it truly is either. I believe it is a fantasy he would like to pursue. Because I still believe this fantasy exists, I think he has bounced back (or possibly never truly left) replay.

So, my question is.....If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?

[OldPilot]

So, my question is.....If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?

REALITY!

The world is not a perfect place.
So when the real world shows its ugly head, the MLC'er might look within and realize what they have given up and caused all this destruction.

Thats what I think!

[Buggy31]

So, my question is.....If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?

This is a big question for me to and I think it's one a lot of LBS's must face that by enabling cake eating  or the MLCer to play with OP and be a home base with LBS the MLCer can become stuck...there are many sitch where the FANTASY must be pushed into reality with exposure.  THis is a scary thing for an LBS because we know what it means in MLC which is the pursuit of the affair partner.  Yet as RCR says sometimes they have to hit rock bottom and the OP can actually be the accelerant for that.  Some people say the OW extends the crisis but I think in some sitches a CRAZY OW might push the MLCer along more quickly.  I think it REALLy depends on the MLCer a...this would all relate to a breakdown of an affair...and I think for some MLCers they must follow the process through to rule it out as a possiblity for happiness...These are just my thoughts..hope others weigh in too.  In my sitch the affair started in Jan 09 was exposed in May 09 and ended for a BRIEF while but contact resumed and things spiraled again in Dec 09 with Obvious OW pressure around April 10/May 10.  He left in June 10 after I set the boundary that if chose to stay in the home he would need to end contact with OW or he could choose to leave and then there was a plan for how we would deal with finances and kids.  I told him that he was loved  and this was his home but I would not tolerate a third person in our marriage and home.  He chose to leave...it was no surprise. 

[Sideways]

Heartsblessing

You certainly have a knack for putting things in an understandable format for me!  Thank you.

I am understanding things a LOT better now. I could never put the pieces together before.  1) the issues of mlc'er, 2) satisfaction they are\are not receiving 3) reliving issue in life 4) burden vs escape 4)awakening process 5) good dose of REALITY.    Even if possibly, and in my case already a reality, the mlc'er will have to leave and live with OW to find out what he already had.

Thank you HB!  I also did many things in the beginning that made it a whole lot worse. I got on a lot of rants that really pushed him further away.  But I think it wouldn't have made a difference as it is now.  I think he would have left anyway.  But it did give me much more pain as you said it had for you.  I can relate. I sometimes go through the wondering if by my going NC when I had, had pushed him into OW's waiting tentacles. ( )

I just realized something in this conversation that has helped me!  Even though I have those times of doubt, I am glad I did go NC.  It moved things forward as well as helping me keep my sanity and set boundary for H's cake-eating. H thought he could come here during day, when he wanted, and leave in evening to go to his private space.  H also thought if he divorced me, he would still hang out and he would come here and putz around in the garage on projects and such..  Ummm...no... no I don't think so H.

 So wow, I feel relief for something that has been bothering me underneath for a good year.  I mean I actually "feel it" instead of saying it! Thanks everybody!

Voyager
It is interesting how similar our sitch's are.  The time lines are a year apart from yours.  My H EA summer 08...I find out Sept \Oct 08.  H moves out May 09.  I find out they are living together Aug 2010. And he is trying to keep it a secret still. Now stating he has been "seeing" her for about a month at that time. When in fact he had been living with her for about 4 months. Secrets, secrets secrets.  H loves his secrets.

[HeartsBlessing]

If a person has a fantasy one that is ultimate perfection in their mind, how does that ever run its course?

Like OP says REALITY strikes; perception changes in time, as fantasy cannot last forever, Still...something always happens to break that fantasy; and reality intrudes upon the fantasy.

It's hard to explain; but as they progress forward within the tunnel, they will experience several changes of perception..and eventually reality WILL strike, and break up the fantasy.

It is sort of like living in denial; it's great while in denial, but eventually reality will come in and show the person in denial what is really happening..and as a result, denial will break; and either cause a nervous breakdown or that person will take the reality and build on it, becoming stronger as a result.

Also, whomever they hold the fantasy about; can also break their fantasy; as they may see them do something or even hear something about that person that is NOT in line with the pedestal they have placed this person on, and that can ALSO break their fantasy-based thinking.

God has a tendency to get involved, as well, in response to prayers, NOT to intervene with their minds, but to work within their hearts to help them see the reality of things, too.

The whole time my husband was involved with his OW; quite a bit of his perception was fantasy; and as his perception changed for the worse, he became attracted to her; but when things started to fall apart; he saw her for what she was; and his perception altered/changed back to what it had been before; and he didn't like what he saw in her.

Your husband will have to work this out within himself..however it goes; but reality WILL, I hope, strike him given time; and the fantasy will break; as NO ONE is perfect; and hopefully, he will realize this; in TIME.

On the other hand, it may take him going to her to find out she is NOT what he thought she was...I'm hoping he will break this without going that far; but sometimes  what it takes to bring a healthy dose of reality is to make a mistake that you have to live with for the rest of your life.

[UNHAPPYPUP]

Good Morning:

I just wanted to post a section of a blog that I follow to open a discussion on boundaries and expectations. 

When I look at both myself and my H I feel this is one area we have definitely fallen down on, and is perhaps the crux of our issues, and his MLC (which I believe has launched me into my own MLT myself!).  I am definitely going to spend my lunch hour and weekend free time sketching out better boundaries for myself and my children in many areas.  I have learned that when one person in a family changes, the whole family relationship dynamic changes because there is no other way in a family ecosystem, so the only way is up (I HOPE!).  An experiment in the making, but one that no matter which way my marriage goes, I will be better for it in the long run.  The blog below is an email I receive from Project Happily Ever After.  I hope you enjoy it.  Please share your thoughts!

Thanks, Pup

Live Regret Free, Day 4
Posted: 06 Jan 2011 09:09 AM PST

Recently someone asked me about the difference between expectations and boundaries. I told him that expectations are what you hope will happen.  Boundaries are what you allow to happen.

Let me tell you something. I was unhappiest in my marriage when my expectations were high, but my boundaries were low.
I expected a lot from my husband. I wanted him to be sensitive, kind, understanding, funny, exciting, hard working, smart and a million other things. I expected a lot from marriage, too. I wanted marriage to complete me. I’ll just stop with that one because it’s a high enough expectation all by itself.

My boundaries, however, were almost nonexistent. I gave up who I was in order to please others, especially my husband. If I was scheduled to go to a meditation class and he asked if he could go for a bike ride, I would agree to skip meditation and stay home with our daughter.

And I resented it. I bathed in a personally drawn hot bath of resentment during every moment of every day. This is not the kind of bath one wants to bathe in. Just so you know.

I was resentful because I wanted my husband to have a divine revelation. I wanted him to see that his choices were using me up and draining me dry. See? High expectations. I wanted him to have ESP. But he’s not the kind of person who can read minds like that.

And, in reality, I was the one who was creating the problem. I had no boundaries.

This high expectations (wanting a lot) and low boundaries (standing up for too little) was a pervasive problem in every area of my life. It caused unhappiness in my marriage, in my career, in my friendships… everywhere.

Once I learned how to lower my expectations and draw strong, confident boundaries in marriage, I was able to do it everywhere in life. I’m a better, stronger, happier person for it.If any of this sounds familiar to you, then you might want to do the same. Here are a few things to think about. If you are doing this series with your spouse, consider talking about each of these questions. If you are doing it on your own, consider them and see what revelations they generate:

   What is sacred to you? What do you absolutely need to have in your life in order for you to be a happy, well-adjusted person? For me, I need to exercise regularly, get enough sleep, go to meditation once a week and practice it daily, and have a little me time (which might entail spending time with friends, reading novels, or just staring at a wall).
   How often do you give up what is sacred to you in order to please someone else in your life—especially your spouse? Does it happen all the time? Or hardly at all?
   What are some ways you can draw firm boundaries around what is sacred to you?
   What are some ways you can better communicate the importance of what is scared to you to your spouse? (Note: Next week’s posts will all be about communication).
   Are you centered, strong and complete enough to stand on your own two feet? In other words, if your marriage ended, do you know, without a doubt, that you would be able to survive on your own? If not, what can you do to create more completeness in your life and become more self sufficient and confident?
   Think about your expectations of your spouse and of your marriage. Do you have expectations that you could satisfy outside of your marriage—and especially by drawing a firm boundary? For instance, if you have a need for excitement, could you satisfy that by taking more risks in your career or by traveling? If you have a need for stimulating conversation, could you satisfy it by going out with friends or by attending book club?
   Think about your spouse’s boundaries. Are they strong and visible? Have you been trying to get past them? Do you respect those strong boundaries, or do you rally against them? Or are they weak and non-existent? Do you know where your spouse’s line is? Do you walk all over your spouse and not even realize it?
   How do other people in your life assert their boundaries in a healthy way? Who are some people you would like to emulate?
 
RCR Edit to add Link for Blog's Main Page
http://www.projecthappilyeverafter.com

[Hope for Zen]

Wow, that is an amazing article!  I need to print that one out and keep it.  Loved how the boundries was defined as protecting what is most vital to who you are.  Also about the expectations vs boudries gap.  This one really hit home for me.  Something clicked when I read this.

Thanks!

[HeartsBlessing]

I told him that expectations are what you hope will happen.  Boundaries are what you allow to happen.

This is a very good article in relation to the difference between expectations and boundaries..

But what it fails to mention in regards to the boundary half of it is this: Boundaries are for YOU, NOT the person you set them on.....the person you set the boundary on can easily decide they won't accept your limits; and they CAN either continually cross your boundaries, just because they can or  walk away completely; refusing the have a relationship with you.

You have to be strong enough to accept the consequences for the boundaries you set...that doesn't mean you shouldn't set them; it simply means you must understand that if/when you set boundaries, you must ALSO be able to accept boundaries that are set on YOU.

Many people who are not mature, or lack proper boundaries view these as "punishment" or "control"....you set these to protect yourself; but they don't see it that way....they were trying to have the "other control" they are once had, and it is a battle of wills to enforce your boundaries, especially when they are early in the making; and you've never set them before.

Boundaries are NOT a "one sided" proposition, they never were.

Boundaries will change you, mature you; and in turn they can cause change of relation in the person you've set them on.

For example, when I started setting boundaries against my husband for bad behavior, he got very angry; and tried to back me down...back to the "easy" person I'd once been....I stood my ground; and he got angrier...now, this is where the choice came in...as I stood my ground; he could have easily decided he didn't want anything to do with me any longer, and walked away to find someone else who would put up with his controlling and manipulating ways...but because, he still wanted me; he chose to stay and begin to change in response to the boundaries I set.

It took time; but he did indeed change, as I changed...and came forward within the tunnel.

Another example involved his sister; she was also a controller and a manipulator, used to getting her own way 100 percent of the time.  When I changed, she did NOT like it; telling me I was selfish and self centered, simply because I started saying NO alot more; and wouldn't take on the overload of projects I used to take on..and she EXPECTED me NOT to change...simply stay the same..and it wasn't happening.

What she was always asking of me wasn't life and death; but she would always try to "guilt" me into doing what she wanted, and in the past it had worked..I was a classic people pleaser at one time.

She would pitch fits at Thanksgiving and Christmastime, if we decided to do something on our own as a family...she wanted us to come out there to her house every year...and in the past we'd felt we couldn't plan trips out of town, because she would get mad if we did.  We had allowed ourselves to be controlled by this.

After she figured out I was no longer bending to her will, she wouldn't speak to me for a long time; but, eventually, she began to change her way of relating to me; and she learned that her "hurt" feelings didn't mean much to me, as IF I could and wanted to, I would, and if I couldn't or didn't want to, I wouldn't.


You take chances when you set boundaries, although they are for your mental health AND growth.

In regards to the expectation half is this: NEVER, EVER EXPECT people to do what's right; if they do, that's great; but you can NEVER expect them to do anything for you or with you...as long as your expectations are low, you'll never be disappointed if someone doesn't do what you MIGHT reasonably expect them to.

It all goes back to the only person that can be controlled is SELF, and no other.

Everything we've ever attained, has been because we are and have been willing to fight for it...and that's only half the battle; the other half is convincing the other person that you are NO LONGER someone who can be walked on..and that comes at a certain within the crisis and within your growth...when YOU are ready to take that chance.

This is the "con" of that article..and I would be remiss if I didn't flesh out these "cons"...I've seen BOTH sides of the equation...my marriage made it, BUT I found out who my REAL friends were; once I started growing and changing; and I lost many "relationships" because people were only interested in what I could "do" for them, NOT the person I was.

Food for thought.