[kikki]

Hi Anne
No haven't read the latest on your thread - will have a catch up soon.

I too like the coming together of the biology and the psychology of the crisis information.

I spoke to a fourth year Med Student last week, who had just come off a 3mth psychiatric placement.  I didn't mention anything about any of this, but we talked about her experiences on the ward. 
She mentioned the voices, and I asked when they would expect to 'see' them, in which conditions, and yes, she said both schizophrenia and also major depression.

Said they are usually so negative, that they have to watch for the patient's safety.  All the while, the core person is still in there under neath it all.  Frightening stuff. 

[Ready2Transform]

My H heard the voices, too - as did I, but I don't think on the same scale.  H said his told him to hang himself in our garage.   Then later, same day, he said he heard no voices at all and had no idea what I was talking about.

With Schizophrenia being a dopamine imbalance (too much - which if I understand tips the scales on serotonin to be too little), this continues to support the extremely low serotonin MLC theory (I'm with you on it, kikki!).  The esoteric viewpoint of it being "the children" as HB wrote is the other side of the same coin to me; it's low serotonin that is the underlying root, but it manifests as these demons of our past to our cognition.  All so fascinating if it were a documentary, not a lifestyle!!

[osb]

My 2 bits, being interested in brain function. This comes from completely unrelated reading, but might be relevant for assembling the assorted mental and physical concepts re MLC....

'Executive' cognitive function (dominated by the frontal lobes, but highly dependent on connections running from there to the parietal cortex, limbic system and even the cerebellum) is a domain of unconscious thought processes that 'manage' behavioural and cognitive activity. Executive processes are important for goal formation, planning, goal-directed action, self-monitoring, attention, and response inhibition.

I ran into the idea of altered brain executive functions in context of fetal alcohol syndrome (results in poor judgement, lack of impulse control, risk taking behaviour - though in FAS this problem is lifelong, not a 'phase'). It's not that neurotransmitter levels are 'globally' altered, but that the neuronal connections essential for this level of thought regulation are simply not working. Also plays a role in everything from alcoholism and ADHD, to survivors of prematurity, and to the extreme in schizophrenia, so it's rather non-specific! But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...

[Anjae]

I had a schizophrenic grand aunt. It is crazy but the saddest is nearly no one in the family got she didn’t like to be the way she was. They put it down to: she is crazy, what is one to do? She died a few months ago. The core person is there. With meds, and depending how acute it is, a schizophrenic will be fine. Problem is, just like our MLCers, many stop taking the meds. Then they think their loved ones want to poison them, are against them, plot (and sometimes take them ahead) terrible things to hurt those evil loved ones, the cause of all their problems. It is all in their heads, like with our MLCers.

I’ve never been to the wards of the psychiatric hospital, only to the psychiatric emergency room and out patient’s but I’ve had many talks with my friend the psychiatrist.

And now I’m taking a course on neurobiology and how addiction affects the brain for beginners. I’m wrapped up in electric brain circuits, neurotransmitters, molecules… it is a all a bit too much but I’m absorbing the essential.

Oh, yes, personality disorders turn up in adolescence and young adults. It is a rarety they turn up in adulthood. My friend the psychiatrist said so and was very surprised that my cousin, who was nearly 40 when he saw him, could had developed a personality disorder at 37 (when the MLC thing become more obvious). It is different with epilepsy, that can come to the surface in any age, or the dementias that who tend to appear late in life.    

[Anjae]

But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...

Hi OSB, thank you so much for your input. Yes, it would explain a few things. None of us have a brain scan of MLCers to look at, so we don't know exactly what is wrong. but suspension of proper executive functioning could be one of the problems.

I think in most of our MLCers whatver it is the problem it is just a phase. However, the brain may end up with damages done during Replay behaviour because of sleep deprivation, too much drinking, too many drugs...

[kikki]

But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...

Yes osb, I absolutely believe it does explain a few things.

I think in most of our MLCers whatver it is the problem it is just a phase. However, the brain may end up with damages done during Replay behaviour because of sleep deprivation, too much drinking, too many drugs...

Annej - fingers crossed it is just a phase and is transient, but the reduced blood supply due to the depression may cause irreversible vascular changes, and may explain those that never 'wake up'. 
Hopefully that is a very rare scenario and most will move through this phase of their lives successfully. 

R2 - It definitely sounds like all the neurotransmitters get out of balance doesn't it, during this time. 

[Anjae]

Fingers crossed, Kikki. For most it is a phase and transient. One other possibility for them never to “wake up” is if they remain in Replay forever (or until a very late age), constantly adding a high.

Some people remain on drugs/alcohol until they die, some for 20 or more years. But I think nearly all MLCers get out of the tunnel. What I think may also happen is, once out of the tunnel, liminality gone, no LBS, lots of damage to cope with, former MLCer will go, not really into the tunnel again but back to something that keeps them from facing reality.

In such case it will no longer be MLC (replay behaviour will most certainly be gone) but only a depressed person/person with no objective. Mu aunt thinks my husband has no reason to leave Replay because he no longer has a purpose in life other than Clubbing. There is nothing else left for him. Of course there may be but he will not be able to see it.

[kikki]

That's a good point Anne.  The addictive high becomes a long term lifestyle choice.  I can seen how that could happen. 

Mu aunt thinks my husband has no reason to leave Replay because he no longer has a purpose in life other than Clubbing. There is nothing else left for him. Of course there may be but he will not be able to see it.

That's terribly sad, but your Aunt is probably right. 

[Anjae]

If the addictive high become a lifestyle choice most certainly there will be empired memory, physical decadence before time and plenty of other problems.

Yes, it is sad if MR J cannot see more than clubbing. But, if I was him, would I be able to see it?... Not sure. He knows I want to divorce and have a family, he knows what he have done. He does not have a clue MLC, let alone that I know what is going on with him. So, it makes sense he cannot see an alternative.

And sad it may be I will not withdraw my intention of divorce. Mr J is in no state of being a husband. I need a husband and a life, not a man trapped on clubbing fantasy.

[Ready2Transform]

And sad it may be I will not withdraw my intention of divorce. Mr J is in no state of being a husband. I need a husband and a life, not a man trapped on clubbing fantasy.

Your drive to create a healthy, happy life is a sign of a healthy brain and thought process.  We all have that when we're healthy.  Even in contentment, we want to make plans and move forward toward something. 

This to me is why I don't think it's really possible for an MLCer to "recover" and choose to stay in their crappy MLC lifestyle.  If their brain is healthy, they will naturally move toward elevating themselves somewhere.  It may not be back to reconciliation with an LBS, but no one in their "right mind" moves into a life position that no longer fits.  Even in their "wrong mind" - they knew they felt compelled to chase something, even when it was a downward move.

So to stay stuck, I think, means to either need treatment or not be fully cooked.

But I just wonder if the replay stage of MLC behaviour might include a (hopefully transient?!) suspension of proper executive functioning. Would explain a few things we see... poor judgement, impulsivity, risk taking...

I like where this is going, OSB.  This doesn't seem like something with a lot of gray area, where you're "sort of" functioning...connections either work or they don't, right?  So would this be an explanation for the "suddenly" we hear about? 

I think from what I've read there can be an elevation in levels of serotonin that incrementally decrease the worst of the MLC-like (or MLC ) symptoms, but if that happens quickly (as in a serotonin spike), it can cause a "suddenly"-like situation that quickly changes the brain (though a spike is usually associated negatively, as when it occurs at a sudden discontinuation of SSRI drugs). 

Just pondering - I think there's a scientific basis to the "suddenly" and the incremental improvement some MLCers exhibit, and if we understood it, it would help us as LBS find comfort in our partners' healing AND help us stop watching the boiling pot.