[Anjae]

I was responding to OP, regarding what we think of the first blog post, hence the comment that the first part is similar to the main site.

Well, to me, if it is midlife transition it only applies to midlife. Transitions and crisis can happen at any age but if it says midlife it can only be related to something that goes on in midlife.

I’m more concerned with the general pathologize of OW than with pathologise MLC. MLC is an abnormal situation/condition of midlife transition, the OW most of the times does not suffer from the mental illness LBS tend to attach to them. They may have symptoms, but so do we all, on occasions.

ADD/ADHD means something is wrong/out of the ordinary/in disorder. That does not make you, the person, wrong, but ADD is a disorder. MLC, for me, is a disorder. The normal is midlife transition. MLC is the disorder mode of midlife transition. All MLCs imply depression. Depression is a medical condition. I know you don’t see MLC depression as clinical depression but depression is depression, from light to severe. I don’t see how you can have an exception for MLC. Depression in adolescence, even if part of teenage years, is still depression.

I think the psychological/emotional is affected by the biological condition of the MLCer. Of course, then, the psychological/emotional condition ends up influencing the biological condition.

We know very little how alcohol really works on the brain but we know that, at a point, if is not so simple as to choose. Choose for me implies possibility. For some it is not possible to give up. Or not for a long time.

For me it makes a huge difference if it is a choice or a compulsion. I will not forgive, accept or even exchange a word with a person who choose to do what Mr J is doing. Sorry if I sound hard but if someone is doing all this in their right mind, well, they’re a monster and not a MLC one. If, on the other hand, they are battling compulsions/something is wrong the situation is different.

My background is History, Philosophy, Art, and Classic Culture. No biology or chemistry since the 9th grade until this MLC stuff come along. Jung was part of our college studies, and Jung was the reason I found the board. Jung terms: Self, Shadow; Reintegration make perfect sense for MLC, even without going into the neurobiological stuff. But the neurobiological stuff can explain how the personality changes and all the alterations we see in our MLCers.

I think there can be both situations. Some may be stuck because they realised the LBS gave up on them (even if I’m not certain how most MLCers have a clue if the LBS gave up or did not gave up on them. Clingers may have close relationship with the LBS but not all MLCers are close to the LBS) and some come out of the crisis and, finding nothing they consider worthy, dive into depression and remain damaged. No longer the same depression as in MLC. This may be more obvious with Replayers than with Wallowers.

I kind of have that struggle even if I’m not standing. Mr J has no reason to come out of the tunnel. He has no wife, no children, no marital home, none of our previous joint projects, nothing. All he has is clubbing. If he leaves clubbing la la la land and friends he will find himself on a void of nothingness. He is in a void of futility but at least he is making money and has the recognition of his peers.

The only thing that MR J has to hang to is me but I’ve made it clear I want to divorce and have a family and that he is not included in those family plans. So, did I condemn him to be stuck or did the fact that he was taking too long in Replay took me to make it clear I wanted to move on and he was not on board? … The second, I think, since I only putted it on black and white late Summer 2011.

[BirdSoul]

A huge challenge to my Standing is that I personally know of several cases of MLC where the MLCer never attempted a return, married the Alienator, and stayed married to them for many many years.

My boss had an affair with his assistant, left his wife, married A, had 2 children. Still married 15 years later.

My friend's father left his wife out of the blue (on Thanksgiving Day no less) for much younger Brazilian woman. Never attempted a return, married OW and moved to Brazil. That was 20-plus years ago.

My dear friend is dating a man who left his wife for OW in his office and then OW decided she did not want to leave her husband after all. Did my friend's BF go back to his wife? No! He is now dating my friend, 5 years after his BD to his wife.

Finally, and this is the richest of all, my ex-husband's father ran away with next door neighbor's wife, never attempted a return even though my ex's mother remained unmarried, he married the Alienator, and they are still married 30 years later!!! Ironically my ex always HATED this and copied it anyway.

So I "feel" it is far more common for MLCer to just move on with A and make the best of it than to try to repair things with spouse. And let's face it, these Alienators are not usually going to be the ones to leave the MLCer. This is the model my ex has to follow.

That said, I am envious of those whose spouses take no legal action. To me, that shows that they are genuinely torn. My H rushed into divorce. Didn't even discuss it with me. Informed me in a letter and filed on his own. No ambivalence there.

[Dontgiveup]

A huge challenge to my Standing is that I personally know of several cases of MLC where the MLCer never attempted a return, married the Alienator, and stayed married to them for many many years.

My boss had an affair with his assistant, left his wife, married A, had 2 children. Still married 15 years later.

My friend's father left his wife out of the blue (on Thanksgiving Day no less) for much younger Brazilian woman. Never attempted a return, married OW and moved to Brazil. That was 20-plus years ago.

My dear friend is dating a man who left his wife for OW in his office and then OW decided she did not want to leave her husband after all. Did my friend's BF go back to his wife? No! He is now dating my friend, 5 years after his BD to his wife.

Finally, and this is the richest of all, my ex-husband's father ran away with next door neighbor's wife, never attempted a return even though my ex's mother remained unmarried, he married the Alienator, and they are still married 30 years later!!! Ironically my ex always HATED this and copied it anyway.

So I "feel" it is far more common for MLCer to just move on with A and make the best of it than to try to repair things with spouse. And let's face it, these Alienators are not usually going to be the ones to leave the MLCer. This is the model my ex has to follow.

That said, I am envious of those whose spouses take no legal action. To me, that shows that they are genuinely torn. My H rushed into divorce. Didn't even discuss it with me. Informed me in a letter and filed on his own. No ambivalence there.

I often have a question when I hear stories like these that I would like to ask.  How do you know they were each cases of midlife crisis?

[BirdSoul]

Understood. I am basing the MLC label on age at the time (all 40s), longstanding first marriage, suddenness (shock) of BD, refusal to work on marriage, OW and moving out.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

My friend's father left his wife out of the blue (on Thanksgiving Day no less) for much younger Brazilian woman. Never attempted a return, married OW and moved to Brazil. That was 20-plus years ago.

This one has to be dropped from the list. The man was planning on returning but he went swimming and was eaten by piranha. While tragic, it was Karma that someone who ditched his family on the day of a great feast ended up as the main course for someone else's feast.

I stand and endorse standing because it gives the LBSer a chance to heal and make rational decisions about their relationships and really making a choice about who and what they want out of their lives.

Standing is for the LBSer to (((((heal)))) and reclaim their self-esteem.

I have not been active lately but I will be back soon.

[hobo1]

Bird Soul- I too am 24 months post BD and 10 mos. post D.  There really is no sign that my xW wants to return, so I know how you feel.  I've also read the book you gave me on Avoidant Personality Disorder, and there is a type of avoidant who is simply happier alone even though they may have spent years happily married.
 
So there really is no definite right answer....  You stand for yourself.  There are no guarantees.  My guess is that many of them are so ashamed at what they've done, they prefer not to see you because you remind them of their actions.  You know what they've done.

I think they would need to be sure that they would be forgiven and are still loved before they would be willing to even consider coming back.

Hope you are well. 

[limitless]

This one has to be dropped from the list. The man was planning on returning but he went swimming and was eaten by piranha. While tragic, it was Karma that someone who ditched his family on the day of a great feast ended up as the main course for someone else's feast.

Ready,

You always make me laugh.

I've missed you....hope that you are doing ok.

limitless

[Rollercoasterider]

I have read some people who know several cases where a marriage started as an affair--so the MLCer or leaving spouse did not return to the marriage.
I have read some people who know several cases where a marriage was restored after an affair--and abandonment. (We hear of healing after an affair without abandonment or a gap between discovery and recovery even more often).

The person who knew many who married the alienator believed that was the more common outcome and Standing was futile. The person who knew many cases of restoration believed in Standing.
Both people gave anecdotal evidence--and that's just it; it is ONLY anecdotal. Of course we know someone who... fill in the blank. And some people know so many situations of one way that it gives a false appearance of being valid data.
My stepmother left her husband of 20 years in 1986 and moved directly in with the OM, her children were 8 and 11. A few months later--Valentine's Day 1987 she married the OM. She and my Dad will have been married for 26 years this coming February. And yet I believe in Standing--and I believed in it before Sweetheart came home even once.
Is my Dad's marriage good, stable or solid. Well I guess that is relative. I personally find the two of them depressing and the two together--ARGH several hours in a car with those two Bickerson's is not fun--I travelled with them recently to pick up their new puppy, why? um hello, car ride with a puppy and we stopped off to see my cousin. To me there was always a negative fog or tension in the atmosphere. I was 14 when they married--the oldest. There were four kids--2 from each side and we were supposed to be quiet at 2:00 on Saturday afternoon because my stepmother was sleeping--she didn't work nights. My Dad would hop around like a nervous mother hen trying to keep us quiet. It was a house made of eggshells--and what's so amazing is that when they moved they always seemed to find a house made of eggshells!
My Dad has wanted me to go over there for a holiday and I have so far avoided it--now I won't be as close and my sister (step) has moved away so I would want to go even less.
So sure, they are still married and she has not returned to her husband--so not much consolation in the way of Standing. But in my view their relationship--though stable or at least consistent--sucks.
Oh and my Dad told me that if he died and her first husband's wife died, my Dad would like them to get back together. He's an awesome guy--he met my Dad immediately and me and my brother too and for years we got to use the summer place (he got it in the marriage divorce) on a few weekends.

[OldPilot]

Part 2 was posted earlier for anyone that did not look on the blog yet.

http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1349

More comments?

[StillStanding]

I really appreciated RCR's explanation of the Stockdale Paradox and why it is well-suited for Standing.

I may just start pointing people to that explanation.