[SpecialK]

Like all of us on here, I have been reading loads of stuff on MLC.  I've just been reading through 'The Six
Stages of a Midclife Crisis'  I've also know of a couple of people that have had breakdowns.   

It appears to be me that some of the symptoms are the same.  What are you thoughts.

SKx

[ece711]

This looks like a valid question...  I'm also looking forward to seeing the replies on this thread. 

[justasking]

MLC is a need to visit the past for emotional growth to carry them forward into the next phase of their life.

Throughout they show signs of breakdown such as depression, withdrawal and hitting rock bottom. But it is different. They carry out behaviours to try and heal. Throughout you will see narcissism, bipolar and schizophrenic tendencies though they don't have these illnesses.

In a breakdown the body can take no more stress and closes its self to heal. With MLC they don't break down but keep moving to find what they are looking for, though the journey is torment for them at times. Unfortunately some get stuck in the transition and don't move forward for different reasons.

I'm sure some wise people will be along to give further insight.

[SpecialK]

Something they've I've meaning to ask for a while but why do some people sail through mid life without any problems whatsoever, whilst others go into a crisis?

[SpecialK]

Sorry that was meant to 'Ive, not they've'

[HeartsBlessing]

Something I've meaning to ask for a while but why do some people sail through mid life without any problems whatsoever, whilst others go into a crisis?

It all has to do with growth, and the lessons that are learned throughout life itself.  It seems some people "get it" early, learning what they are supposed to learn long before Midlife, and when that time comes around; it is no more than a "blip" on the radar screen, they've already figured out their goals, where they are going, etc.

These are people who have learned boundaries, learned about themselves, and have pretty well got it together.

You also have the fortunate few whose parents were NOT maladjusted, and raised their children to maturity with values, proper boundaries, etc.

You see we are presented with these opportunities to learn LONG before Midlife..but since people don't recognize these opportunities, or their coping mechanisms are so ingrained that they either fear or don't want to learn something new, during the crisis they are FORCED into learning.

In life, we are taught valuable lessons by people that are put into our lives...and if we don't learn the first time around, we will recycle several times, if needed, to learn.

Anyway...the fortunate few that don't have the problems others do, have ALREADY learned what  they need to know for a lifetime....

Yet, remember, life is ALWAYS full of difficulty, no matter WHAT you learn/know...or even at whatever stage you learn it.

Someone else may have a little more insight on this than me. 

But this is what I know.

[mercury]

I think HB summed it it very well, I'd only like to  add that I think some are more afraid then others to face life lessons and themselves. 

[Trustandlove]

These are people who have learned boundaries, learned about themselves, and have pretty well got it together.

I also think HB summed it up well; the 'learned about themselves' bit is important -- RCR talks about "accomodators"; those that do what is expected rather than thinking through what they want are also at more risk of a crisis. 

It's also to do with having learned about how to solve conflicts.  Those that avoid conflict are more at risk; having not learned to resolve the inevitable issues that crop up in life. 

[SpecialK]

That so makes sense, it's like you've all given me an insight to him.  He had a troubled upbringing, although he was the iddle one, he was 3 born, he was the one that looked after the younger two.  He's always done what's expected (he's a people pleaser),  hates conflict (again because of his upbriging), and would rather run away that face up to things. 

Thank you so much.

SKx

[Mermaid]

I'd like to add that MLC isn't one thing with one cause, but a set of symptoms which look similar in some ways but have a lot of variations in another. They seem to want to get control of their lives, find meaning in it, and say a lot of similar types of things (including ILYBINILWY).

On the other hand, some abandon their families and all responsibilities, have an A, or more than one, NC, etc; others stay at home, maintain their financial responsibilities, but seem emotionally divorced.

In some cases, hormones are to blame; in others, chronic stress; and others have serious maladjustment issues from chilhood. The culture plays a part, so do biology and religious beliefs. MLC doesn't exist in some cultures.

[Still]

others stay at home, maintain their financial responsibilities, but seem emotionally divorced.

That is an exact description of my situation. 

[OldPilot]

MLC doesn't exist in some cultures.

Which one?
I know cultures that divorce is ILLEGAL, and  MLC still exists.

[mercury]

MLC doesn't exist in some cultures.

When I was seeing a choose therapist, they don't believe in mental illness, one of his facts he like to through around was that in some cultures there is no Schizophrenia. I can't remember what country he was pulling that from I just remember thinking well maybe they call it something else or maybe they are so deep in struggling to survive that odd behavior isn't that unheard of.  I believe their is mental illness and in genetics increasing the odds of both physical and mental illness.

[Mermaid]

OP, It is rare in Japanese and Indian cultures. See
Menon (2001), "Middle Adulthood in Cultural Perspective," in Lachman, "Handbook of Midlife Development", John Wiley

[Mermaid]

Also see: The Social Construction of the Midlife Crisis: A Case Study in the Temporalities of Identity

This paper examines the emergence, reification, and dissemination of the "midlife crisis" from a sociology of knowledge perspective. Two decades of articles on the subject from both professional and mass media sources are content analyzed. Upon elaborating the various biological, psychological, and social psychological theories of this biographical phenomenon, we address such questions as how different disciplines portray the event, what patterns of interdisciplinary citations there are, and how these professional depictions lead into the mass media. The results suggest longitudinal declines in the frequency of reductionist explanations from the biological and psychiatric paradigms and increasing attention given to the interplay between social dynamics and personality structures. From this, a new sociocultural theory is posited, one portraying this subjective experience deriving not simply from age, but from external social temporalities. Specifically, we consider the particular cohort that most midlife research is based upon as well as the particular historical period when it reached middle age.
(Sociological inquiry vol 54 issue 3)
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119527233/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[Mermaid]

The categorization of mental illnesses depend on how they are seen and accepted by society and the medical community, and has a lot to do with the power to control meanings. Someone who is regarded as eccentric at one time and in one culture would be regarded as mentally ill in another.

Cultures and economic development also affect the prevelance of mental disorders. Everything changes, from the organisation of communities, families, ideas of parenting and schooling, to the place individuals can take in society. Our rapidly changing cultures are leading to a much higher incidence of mental disorders, for very complex reasons.

Suggested reading: 2 essential books by Michel Foucault:  History of Madness and  The Birth of the Clinic: An Archaeology of Medical Perception

[HeartsBlessing]

In some cases, hormones are to blame; in others, chronic stress; and others have serious maladjustment issues from chilhood. The culture plays a part, so do biology and religious beliefs. MLC doesn't exist in some cultures.

Mermaid, just so you know the hormone imbalances suffered during menopause/andropause, the Midlife Transition are TWO different events.

It is ENTIRELY possible to go through  Menopause(women)/Andropause(men), which are entirely physical...and STILL have a MLC..which is entirely emotional.

It is also possible to be "mixed" going through BOTH at the SAME time or like I said, they can be experienced separately; that happened to ME. 

You can't blame shifting HORMONES for some of the stuff they do; irritability, yes, depression, yes...but blaming hormones for their behaviors toward the LBS, rebellion, having an affair, etc?  Come on, you know better than that.  These behaviors fall within the EMOTIONAL category of the transition/crisis.

I have yet to see "hot flashes" cause someone to go out and have an affair...sound strange? That's because it IS strange..and I've never seen it happen.

Regardless of what gets the blame, the fact is they have FREE WILL to chose, and they are very well aware of their actions as they go through MLC.   

I went through menopause first, then faced my transition; they went back to back;...and I was in there for 6 years because of various different things.

I was VERY aware of my actions/behaviors as I went through, though there are some things I can't remember to save my life...but I do know I didn't do anything wrong, or dishonor myself OR my husband.

However, my husband's transition ran in tandem with Andropause...and his was bad...he was in there for THREE years..and his transition turned into a crisis that was hard on him AND me.

IF I had NOT set boundaries on him when he kept threatening me; we STILL be in there, even now, cycling through and through and through.

And you are correct MLC is almost non existent in the Japanese, and Native Americans; the reason being that BOTH are in tune with their spiritual sides, and have most likely learned what they were supposed to learn from an early age....PLUS, they are most able to adjust as things happen, and are accepting of change...something to think about.

When I was going through with my husband so long ago, there was practically NOTHING on how to deal with this....all I had was someone who'd been there, the Lord and me to deal and learn from all of it.  I documented what I saw as I saw it...and as the years went by, apparently, I had only documented ONE way it could go...as evidenced by HOW LONG I stayed within my transition, if nothing else.

People have a tendency to sweep under the rug the things they don't want to see or believe in...many of the women I was dealing with back then were in their 50's and 60's, at least.....and they had a LOT of problems with me at first....remember I was in my early 30's at the time he went through...and I learned these lessons early.

I honestly NEVER expected to be back doing this again.

At first, when my sister in law told me that her brother was in a Midlife crisis, I denied it, refused to look at it...and just wanted it to go away..but it didn't...it got worse the longer I fought what I was going to have to do.

The ONLY book I read in regards to this subject was "Men in Midlife Crisis"..and that was IT, until my marriage was on more stable ground.  The rest I learned from the Lord, my guide, and from paying close attention to what my husband was doing/not doing.

It is what it is regardless of what anyone else says about it....MLC is certainly REAL...I didn't believe in it when my husband went in, but I'm here to tell you,  I had a "Come to Jesus" meeting several times with the Monster, and I'm here to tell you, it IS VERY real.

Just because people say it isn't real, doesn't make it the truth.....we KNOW from what we are seeing..and until these same people walk these same shoes....they will always deny that MLC exists...or try to downplay the effects on families...etc.

Take care.

[Mermaid]

HB, Thanks for responding. I certainly value your insight and experience. You are a guiding light on this forum. As you know, I respect Christian beliefs, as I respect other religions too. I have my "spiritual" side, and I was raised a Catholic by devote parents, so I understand the value of it, even as I choose to look at life more scientifically.

Perhaps you misunderstood my words. I would never say that hormones cause anyone to do anything. Nothing about human behaviour is so simplistic. On the other hand, everything we experience as emotions arises out of a complex interreaction of the endocrine, neurology and perception. In other words, hormones don't cause action, but they can add to mental confusion.

From what I have seen of my husband, who is a highly educated and normally a lucid man, mental confusion is a major component. It seems strange, even to me, that he seemed to be unable to see the hurt he was causing and the consequences or reasons for his actions.

You are absolutely right about the boundaries; it's an essential lesson not only for midlife, but wherever we may allow others to affect us in negative ways.

And yes, you might be right; the Japanese and Indian cultures reach great balance in life with their physical and spiritual sides. Even as Japan has developed, it maintains comparatively low crime rates too.

All I am saying is that what we call MLC is complex in its causes, frequency, and solutions. There is a great deal of evidence for this, and not all of it is in Jim Conway's book. Some will not like an analytical view of midlife, others find it helps them understand. Each looks for what they need to navigate this difficult path.

I do believe that this site has good insights, and is probably the most positive midlife forum around. The experience of people who have been through this is vital, but especially important is the idea that we can stand for our marriage.

That's why we are here.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

When people ask my why my w is going through this and not me, I respond, "My wife beat me to the punch."

[HeartsBlessing]

Hi Mermaid,

Read what you wrote again:

I'd like to add that MLC isn't one thing with one cause, but a set of symptoms which look similar in some ways but have a lot of variations in another. They seem to want to get control of their lives, find meaning in it, and say a lot of similar types of things (including ILYBINILWY).


On the other hand, some abandon their families and all responsibilities, have an A, or more than one, NC, etc; others stay at home, maintain their financial responsibilities, but seem emotionally divorced.

In some cases, hormones are to blame; in others, chronic stress; and others have serious maladjustment issues from chilhood.

I didn't take what you said out of context, NOR did I misunderstand what you were saying...maybe it wasn't so much what you said, but the WAY you said it in these lines you wrote...anyone else reading this would most likely have gotten the SAME thing I got out of it.  FWIW, I read this TWICE, if not three times, to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding something before I responded to it.

I THOUGHT it was odd that you would say something like this, but I wasn't certain...so I responded, only to find you are thinking that I misunderstood what you were saying, when, if you read this again, you see what I was seeing.

I pay strict attention to what I write, even going back and rewording some passages because I don't want someone to mistake what I mean when I write something...and I pay attention to what others write, as well.

I wasn't "getting onto you", Mermaid, I didn't mean for you to take it like that; I'm NOT your mother or your boss....but if anyone had read what you'd written the same way I read it....it would be confusing, and make people think Menopause and the MLC are the SAME events, when they are NOT.

Until I saw your response to what I'd written a few minutes ago, I actually thought that you DID think that way, based on what you'd written.

Thank you for clearing that up for me...at least I know now that you don't think that way....yet, there are people that DO think the MLC and Menopause/Andropause are one and the same.

And they are sadly mistaken.

Hormonal changes can add to the confusion of an already full-blown MLC...my husband's confusion worsened when I observed him having hot flashes to complicate an already complicated crisis...this is NOT something I would wish on anyone...and I did NOT know until then that a man really DOES have hot flashes just like a woman(due to low testosterone as compared to a woman's estrogen) until I saw my husband do it, and I looked it up on the internet to figure it out....I didn't recognize it...now if it had been a woman, I would have known right off the bat.

As it was, it took me a WEEK to figure out what was happening...then I was laughing with relief.  I DID tell him what was happening, and he couldn't accept that..oh well, I tried anyway.

I saw some increases in emotional response, such as tears; this was not a man that would cry much at all.

Where woman becomes stronger emotionally, post menopausally, a man will become more tender post andropausal...I hesitate to say weaker, because I don't consider tears and emotional feeling a weakness in anyone.

I rarely ever cry, and when I do, it's over the top, and I can't stop...it borders on hysteria, and scares my husband, because when I cry, something's really wrong. 

I found, post menopausal, that I don't get upset that much...I get more angry than really upset at times...and it's more in regards to how other people get treated, than  how I get treated.

There are times that I will read things here on the board, and I find myself getting VERY angry at what is happening to the people here..and I'm praying some VERY angry prayers, even IF I cannot say anything at that time to help....I DO pray and sometimes angrily....I KNOW I cannot do anything to fix these things, and it does no good to get angry....but just so you know, Ol' HB gets angry FOR you all. 

It's the same old story, can't control anything that goes on, and I KNOW from experience these things must happen as they are supposed to unfold....but the HURT here is strong...and that sometimes makes me angry because I can't do anything about it, except try to comfort when I can.

Anyway, I suppose I have anger issues, but I so hate to see people hurting...and I do rant from time to time about different things. 

What can I say, I'm just as crazy as anyone else, LOL!!

[Trustandlove]

This is an interesting discussion.

I'm going to go off on a bit of a side track -- taking on board everything Mermaid and HB have been saying.

This isn't about our MLC spouses... but about MLC in general.

One of my very best friends, who's never been married, went through an MLC around the time she was turning 40.  She wasn't in a relationship, so didn't have anyone to hurt in this way, but the crisis was still very real.  Perhaps some would call it a transition rather than a crisis, but in any event she found herself unable to continue with life as it was, took a lot of time off work, went all over the place looking for what was missing.

Perhaps for her it helped that she eventually realised that she was depressed and sought treatment, and did spend the time figuring out what she wanted from life.

But during that time she pretty much dropped off the face of the earth.  If there is one difference, it is that she didn't blame her friends....  but had she been in a relationship she may well have abandoned it, as she reallly was re-thinking every single thing in her life. 

She is highly intelligent and educated, has always held responsible and intellectually challenging positions, that kind of thing.  So she was a shocked as anyone to find herself in this situation.

She came through, reconnected with everyone and made some pretty big adjustments to her life, but in the end is still living 'her' life, rather than having gone off to a completely different one. 

And this was before menopause... 

Just another story...

[Freddygone]

This is really interesting. The only people I really know in this process is
1. my wife, who I met when she was 17 years old and
2. a lady we knew who met her husband when she was 15 years. Oh, and
3. another, a guy who met his wife at school when she was 14 years. 
I wonder if they skip the years of dating and other partners if that really makes it hard for them to cope. Particularly if they have someone giving them lots of compliments when they are feeling like they have spent all their time bringing up their family and now they are wondering what life is about (or was about). Blind panic.
This is what happened in each of these three cases. Someone gives the lots of compliments and there we have a MLC. Or is the MLC starting first ?

[honour]

This is really interesting. The only people I really know in this process is
1. my wife, who I met when she was 17 years old and
2. a lady we knew who met her husband when she was 15 years. Oh, and
3. another, a guy who met his wife at school when she was 14 years. 
I wonder if they skip the years of dating and other partners if that really makes it hard for them to cope. Particularly if they have someone giving them lots of compliments when they are feeling like they have spent all their time bringing up their family and now they are wondering what life is about (or was about). Blind panic.
This is what happened in each of these three cases. Someone gives the lots of compliments and there we have a MLC. Or is the MLC starting first ?

Add me to the list. I met my W at school at about 14 years. My W always wanted to get married. Always wanted to have children. We got married at age 20. Were married 27 years before she went MLC. As far as I know I gave her everything she wanted and she was wondeful to be with.

She told my son that now that he and his sister have grown up (D21 S19) she feels it time for her to grow up. Which actually equates to an adulterous relationship, alienating herself from her children by her behaviour, moving in with OM in other country, Vanishing, and seeking divorce. Decree nisi granted today.

They go through a second teenage trying to find themselves. But instead of finding themselves they enter an adulterous relationship. Is it a breakdown? Of a sort. My W holds down a good job...well, as far as I know she is still holding down a good job...I just assume she still is...but this can be done whilst enduring covert depression. They can present an all smiling, all happy front to the world but on the inside be a mass of confusion borne of depression.

honour

[Thundarr]

Didn't have time to read through all this, but I did see where Mermaid and HB were talking about this being rare in certain cultures.  The Japanese and Native American cultures have more in common than just connection with their spiritual sides.  I believe the fact that the incidence of this is less in these cultures have to do with the lack of emphasis on personal accomplishments and more emphasis on the family and society as a whole.  That is probably why there seems to be an increase in the Chinese culture due to them becoming Westernized more quickly.  OP might disagree in this, but I would think that the collecitivist mindset of Asian and Native American cultures is the reason this is hardly ever seen.  I would think that Eskimo and other indigenous cultures that are less civilized (Aussies, you can speak to this for me) would also be less likely to experience this.

[Moving Forward]

Honour,
you are spot on as far as depression is concerned, if you take things at face value then you just see them getting on with their lives but MLC  leaks out of every pore - I didn't know how to spot it before but I do now. I see the dead eyes, the terrible memory, the running from real life in my exH every single time we have any interaction - all it does for me is confirm MLC is a process and it takes time.

I'm very sorry to hear about the decree nisi  - I'm now divorced from 'my' MLCer and I have to say absolutley nothing has changed at all, I've said before that I'm moving mine and my children's live's forward and he's still in MLC and right now I have the much better deal.

Stay strong, you always seem so balanced and respectful and that's wonderful to see.

P
x

[Thundarr]

Honour is right, and I see the signs in my W of depression.  My D10 asked me last night why her Mommy always looks so sad after she talks to me.  I think part of them realize what they're doing to their lives, but they can't stop themselves from doing it at some point.

Add me to the list, but not really my W.  I was 18 when we met, she was 20.  She had a serious relationship during her senior year and was kind of engaged to him, but it ended when she found out he was cheating on her with a stripper.   He lived about an hour away and she took a bus to surprise him and found the evidence.  She was my first real relationship, so it seems like with that logic I would be the one more apt to experience MLC than she is.

[Freddygone]

Honour, I have to say they are all out of the same mould. They dress like teenagers and behave like teenagers and quite frankly look ridiculous. My wife and I have been married 31 years, but the first seven years we had great fun and had our youth and enjoyment, but my wife was always an outrageous flirt. It always hurt me and when I think about it, maybe she was never focussed on me, but always distracted by someone she was flirting with. I think I deserve better than that and maybe when I weigh the balance and look back at what I swallowed. It could have been much better and maybe I dont really want that again.
Someone on here said that the first year you are finding your feet, or at least trying to decide if you can keep your sanity. Now after my second year I dont really see any shift.
Maybe I am waiting for something I stomached before and should have rejected, and maybe I should reject it now before it comes back. You have to be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
Certainly I would not take this rubbish any more which is why I am in another country, watching from a safe distance and preserving sanity for at least one of us. So mixed up it is untrue.

[Anjae]

One of my very best friends, who's never been married, went through an MLC around the time she was turning 40.  She wasn't in a relationship, so didn't have anyone to hurt in this way, but the crisis was still very real.  Perhaps some would call it a transition rather than a crisis, but in any event she found herself unable to continue with life as it was, took a lot of time off work, went all over the place looking for what was missing.

Perhaps for her it helped that she eventually realised that she was depressed and sought treatment, and did spend the time figuring out what she wanted from life.

But during that time she pretty much dropped off the face of the earth.  If there is one difference, it is that she didn't blame her friends....  but had she been in a relationship she may well have abandoned it, as she reallly was re-thinking every single thing in her life. 

She is highly intelligent and educated, has always held responsible and intellectually challenging positions, that kind of thing.  So she was a shocked as anyone to find herself in this situation.

She came through, reconnected with everyone and made some pretty big adjustments to her life, but in the end is still living 'her' life, rather than having gone off to a completely different one. 

One of my male cousins has just went throught something very similar to your friend. He was in a long term relashionship and lived with his girlfriend. They are still together but early this year she moved out. He was too much for her to handle. May 2010 he realised he was totally depressed (even if we, the family, had noticed starnge behaviour since at least September 2009) and asked for help. Only a couple of weeks ago was he able to starting coming out of it.

He does not blame anyone, he just says he really needs to figure out what he really wants. And he is now very aware of verything he went through. Even if I think he had more of a breakdown, he used to say that he was trapped inside a tunnel, unable to see the light or whatever solution to his life. There where months and months that all he talked avbout was ending his life because "he had no worth whatsoever".

He is been fine for less than two weeks. Lets see how it goes from here on.

Freddygone, you can had me to the list as well. My H was 17 when we meet (I was 18).

[BonBon]

I have known many people who seemed to suffer from marrying "too" young (and I say this with the caveat that I don't mean ALL who marry young).  But with that said, I have a different situation in that H and I were 32 and 35 when we married.  Partied HARD prior to this, dated OFTEN....essentially, all wild seeds should have been sown in both of us.  Nothing was missed in terms of "fun" or "independence" or any of that.  Clearly, it was emotional growth that was missed...not the "good" times.

So I do think that often, situational issues add fuel to the MLC fire, such has having "missed out" on those party days.  But my H didn't miss a single "party" yet wanted to return to that life regardless.  This is why I maintain that it can happen to anyone regardless of situation.  I do believe it is an individual thing fueled by a vain and superficial culture of youth, wealth and so on.

Back to the original topic, I see a breakdown as something that is more self destructive to the person having it whereas MLC is destructive to many in that person's circle and would be more likely to include confrontational or passive/aggressive behavior.

[StandandDeliver]

Freddygone - H and I are on your list - I was 18, he was 19. Married when we were 23 and 24, but had been inseparable for 4 years through college and beyond..

[Freddygone]

BonBon I see your point.
A breakdown hurts them whereas MLC hurts everyone else.
I never thought of it like that.

[honour]

I have known many people who seemed to suffer from marrying "too" young (and I say this with the caveat that I don't mean ALL who marry young). 

So I do think that often, situational issues add fuel to the MLC fire, such has having "missed out" on those party days.  But my H didn't miss a single "party" yet wanted to return to that life regardless.  This is why I maintain that it can happen to anyone regardless of situation.  I do believe it is an individual thing fueled by a vain and superficial culture of youth, wealth and so on.

I don't think it is the marrying young itself. It is the people who marry young. In my own situation W was damaged by events in her life when she was 7 years old. This damage I believe led her to want the security of a marriage at a very young age. I would say to her it is only a ceremony, you are married to someone by your feelings. But she needed to be married to feel secure.

So in my view it is the pre teen damage that has caused to her go into midlife depression. The unresolved childhood damage that so effected her self-esteem coupled with all the MLC triggers has set it off. And she had al the triggers: loss of relatives, empty nest syndrome, illness requiring operation, job loss and menopause. The job loss was huge. In fact she hasn't lost her job because she left the country to live where her company was relocating and of course OM works for said company. She is just text book MLC. It is a breakdown of sorts. The extraordinary absence of empathy is evidence of very unhealthy thought patterns.

honour

[Freddygone]

Very unhealthy thought patterns, lack of empathy.
My wife has just told my daughter 21 that she is having a one month break from OM. Whooppee,........
 BUT it just happens to be three weeks before she has to go to court to discuss finances and may be asked if she is cohabiting.
Call me cynical, but after 4 years with the guy, is this a coincidence. I think we are not falling for this one.
For a few days I really thought she was coming out of it. She fooled my daughter.
I must be soft in the head. But I think she and OM are thinking very clearly.  We will see what happens in a month.

[honour]

I must be soft in the head. But I think she and OM are thinking very clearly.  We will see what happens in a month.

The MLCer has an extraordinary ability to deceive and be cunning. In that regard they think very clearly.

honour

[BonBon]

EEE GADS!
I never thought of it that way...
The fog so huge they can't remember, can't do or say this or that...and yet the absolute clarity to think and act deceptively.  Wow, that is so true. And such an ugly truth.  Wow.

The lack of empathy is what has always disturbed (and hurt) me the most.

[kikki]

The lack of empathy is what has always disturbed (and hurt) me the most.

I'll second this. 

[honour]

EEE GADS!
I never thought of it that way...
The fog so huge they can't remember, can't do or say this or that...and yet the absolute clarity to think and act deceptively.  Wow, that is so true. And such an ugly truth.  Wow.

Well, they have the capacity to lie, deceive and be cunning but that doesn't mean they are very good at it. My W was being adulterous 600 miles away in a different country and wouldn't tell me who the OM was. On one of her returns to our home you should have seen the look on her face when I gave her his name!! "How do you know who it is?", she whimpered. She was equally shocked when I named the restaurants she had been to with him.

honour

[LisaLives]

There must be more of it in Japan than there used to be.  The article origin is in NY, but someone saw fit to put it in the Japan Times...

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20110909a1.html

[Anjae]

There must be more of it in Japan than there used to be.  The article origin is in NY, but someone saw fit to put it in the Japan Times...

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20110909a1.html

Lisa, the feature seams to be more aimed at western englisg speaking people in Japan. I do not find anything on it talking about the rise of midlife crisis in Japan and the book and movie references are all western.

[LisaLives]

I didn't really look at it, but I thought it was weird that I was reading this thread for the first time and while I was reading I got that article on my alerts...   

[Musica]

From my point of view MLC is different from a breakdown ... a friend had a breakdown and was more or less unable to function at all, didn't get out of bed, didn't interact with anyone.

My H is more suffering from delusions, and schizophrenia, he has a dual life, when he is here, he says he is unhappy with his life and often cries when he has to leave, he doesn't know how to relate to his children and says he has no purpose in life. However, he often goes out on his motorbike, talks to strangers easily, laughs, stays out late and drinks, and has recently I suspect got back with OW for sex. All those things are his other life ... he thinks he deserves to have a fun filled life. He cares not how this damages his children, and how it hurts anybody else. He has delusions that everything is just fine with his left behind family, kids get over it, its not important.  He isn't having a breakdown, in some ways I wish he was, it would be easier for us to deal with and understand.

[honour]

However, he often goes out on his motorbike, talks to strangers easily, laughs, stays out late and drinks, and has recently I suspect got back with OW for sex. All those things are his other life ... he thinks he deserves to have a fun filled life.

This part I believe is the social masks that hides the psychosis. You get to see delusional, unhealthy personality but he has to hide it from the wider world in order to gain acceptance and approval to bolster is poor self-esteem. His self-loathing he can inflict on you.

It is delusional to believe that everything will be well with his left behind family and that the children will get over it. Everyone knows that children from broken homes are damaged in some way. Yet the MLCer is blinded to this truth.

honour

[kikki]

Honour - that was explained beautifully!

[OnMyJourney]

Been reading more about depression including a book called Depression Fallout by Anne Sheffield (2003) written for partners of depressed people.  There's also a website with a forum.

It gives much the same advice to non-depressed partners dealing with a depressed partner, as LBSers are given in dealing with MLCers.

I'm tempted to try some of the approaches recommended in the book which includes more questioning/pursuing which as LBS we are advised to avoid.  Will give it some thought and post on my regular thread when I figure out what it all means for me. 

In the meantime would like to hear from others as the book totally describes my H so now I'm feeling confused about the difference between MLC and depression.  I know that depression underlies MLC but what is the difference between MLC and serious depression? I don't understand the difference.

OMJ

[angelgirl]

I personally think that MLC is a form of severe depression. Why some people experience MLC-reaction depends on their issues, past experiences, personality type and how they react/cope to depression. There is a spectrum for depression, just as there is for anxiety. For example, OCD is a severe form of anxiety. Why some people go that far and others have panic attacks is a combination of factors.

My H had a history of Seasonal Depression. He had a host of other elements that created the perfect brew for MLC. However, we noted that a strong short-term dose of anti-depressant did help him out of the most psychotic part of MLC. After that he's been dealing with issues that led up to his episode without the use of meds.

I am no expert, but this is what I observed. So yes, I think they are related.

angelgirl

[Sassyone]

I agree, MLC is a severe form of clinical depression.  There is an overwhelming need to run in depressed men, whereas women tend to shut down.  Mid-life depression brings on a whole other set of issues about facing life's failures, etc.  The problem with being depressed is most people don't even realize they are depressed until they are so far down the tunnel (at least that is how it was in my case and my H's case.)  Also spouses that live with depressed spouses are likely to become depressed themselves.  OCD is also an indicator of potetial to become depressed.  H had it all OCD a depressed spouse, a business failure and that was the perfect storm, throw in a OW who is needy, predatory and going through her own MLC and it is the perfect prescription for MLC. 

It is not until the MLC'er can admit that there is something wrong with them and not us can they begin to heal.

Sassy

[JAG]

I too think that MLC is depression gone real far! I think it occurs to men who feel that depression is for the weak and that they could never fall prey to such a thing....and, the suppression leads to MLC...at least that is what I see with my H.  I am certain that past childhood issues are a cause, but at the same time, the past ways of dealing with issues is not working and has made things worst (because they are no longer kids and running from their problems does not make them go away...mom and dad won't be there to save them this time).  The more they run the further in the tunnel they get....the deeper they go the more they have to "fix".  I know that my H has depression.  I know this not only because of the fact that he is running around Europe with another woman but because by his own admission, he is not sleeping well and, when he comes to see the kids, he has this look in his eyes....he is down in the dumps and traveling is just a form of keeping busy so he doesn't have to stop and think or feel....it is truly sad to watch one's loved one when they are in this state of mind....Man depression/MLC is an ugly beast!

[angelgirl]

I agree Sassyone and Jag. I had found a site that compared male and female reaction to severe depression. Although there are female MLCers, the risk is higher for men because typically they do not analyze and even realize they have depression. women, in general, are more likely to identify that they are feeling "blue" and are less likely to be embarrassed by it and seek help. Typical men don't know it's upon them, fail to identify it and then take risky and destructive behaviors to fix it. Certainly my H seemed to fit that list.

My H said he was frantic to stop feeling what he was feeling. He felt numb and trapped and over the years merely took evasive action to counter it. Instead of reflecting on this, it got worse and he steadily went off track. No outside source brought him out of it, even though latching onto OW, running away, switching religious, political beliefs, hobbies (and his entire SELF) was his way to "fix" himself. He says now that his "brain" is adjusted; that the connections have been "corrected." I don't know exactly what he means, but in severe depression the mind tries to rationalize the irrational. H said he also felt "detached" and he depersonalized loved ones in his life. He says he can't even recreate that feeling right now if he tried to.

H also says that in addition to addressing his personal issues he will try to identify well ahead of time if physiological depression is creeping in and take supplements/meds if he has to. So far H has had some personal and job related stress and has coped with these without the need of meds and has been remarkably "happy". In the 25 years I've known him, he has never reacted so positively. As I've posted elsewhere, H also avoids some medications (for other issues) that have depression as  a possible side effect.

I don't know all the answers, but my hope is that H's words gives insight to MLC/depression.


angelgirl
rebuilding

[LoveMeMyself]

Wow!!  this is a good topic.  I have also wondered and truly struggled with this factor.  My exH totally claims and uses depression as his excuse/reason for his actions.  He is on medicine for it again.  He has all the classic MLC signs/symptoms but refers to his depression as hereditary.  Even though I've brought up the fact that he's never experienced depression to this extreme that there must be another underlying reason......he still denies anything wrong other than just suffering from depression.  After his suicide attempt he was treated by some very good doctors.  He went through therapy.  He recent went back on medication due to more suicidal thoughts.  He now claims he will be on it forever.  He has stated he feels better but still has a long way to go.  It is very interesting to read all the thoughts concerning depression and MLC.  I recently expressed to my exH that depression is inward anger and that he holds everything in and doesn't express himself or face the issues within.  I don't know if he will think of what I said or not. 

[OnMyJourney]

Thank you angelgirl, Sassyone, Jag & LoveMyMan for your reponses. 

Interesting how some of your H's are in denial about depression and some acknowledge it and are/have been on ADs.

I'm interpreting most of your observations as MLC is depression at the severe end of the depression continuum.  Some also think that other issues are contributing.  Still trying to figure out why the term MLC is used rather than just depression?  And why not follow the advice for dealing with a depressive which can entail trying to help them see that they are depressed and it is not the R.

Some of you have had discussions with your MLCer about being depressed.  Has anyone felt that by bringing this up with their MLCer that it pushed them away even further? I mentioned it to my h in the weeks after BD & gave him a list comparing men's depression symptoms to women's.  He waved it off but kept the article in his truck for almost a year (probably forgot about it.)  A year ago he acknowledged he was depressed but I realize now that I was ill prepared in my depression knowledge to act on that comment. Darn! I sense that there are windows of opportunity when they are more open to hearing/acknowledging depression.

I want to broach the subject again with my h but afraid of pushing him away towards D. My IC says there is no right way to address it--you have to use your intuition and that one wrong action is not going to be the deciding factor for H.

[OnMyJourney]

The other interesting thing from Anne Sheffield's book is it says "Moving forthrightly toward divorce frightens depression sufferers...sitting on the fence seems safer.  Manipulation allows them to stay there, and they count on partners to opt for even a brief ray of hope.  This explains why depressed partners talk about but shrink from initiating divorce proceedings."

Now I know that this isn't true for all on this Board as some of you are D...so maybe it is the MLC part makes some run faster and further??

OMJ

[Rebel Yell]

I don't mean to sound ugly here but have you all read the articles on the home page?

[LoveMeMyself]

OnMyJourney,

I never mentioned depression to my exH. It was him that told me he was "ill" and that I should run as far away from him as possible. He was in a lot of emotional pain.....I could see the panic and turmoil twisting around his mind. Before I found this forum I did tons of research....as I'm sure we all did.....I found some information regarding MLC. It was several pages of questions to be answered by the person experiencing this (MLC) thing.  There was a point score at the end and it the person scored in a certain point range then they were more likely having an MLC. Anyway, I printed it out and gave it to my husband. I begged him to read it.  A few weeks later I asked him about it. He told me he "failed" miserably.....especially the depression part. Then he asked me why women don't experience this "thing". I felt for sure that I had my answer and knew then that it was MLC for sure. So, throughout this entire experience my exH has grasped onto the diagnosis of depression as his only problem. I have mentioned MLC to him a few times but he snapped at me and said no. I even gave him Conway's book. I stopped bringing it up and didn't mention it for a while. I've only brought it back up once more a few months ago. He made no comment. So, not sure what to advise you as to what to do. Just thought I'd share my experience with you.

Thanks for starting this discussion. I think it's good to get thoughts and experiences from everyone here.

Take care.

[OnMyJourney]

Thanks Rebel Yell -   I'm not hearing ugliness

I've been reading RCR's articles for over 2 years ... over and over.  Maybe I'm in the fog, now

Would you direct me to the specific one(s) that you think I would benefit from reading.

[Anjae]

MLC starts with depression and unrest. JAG, you’re wrong, my husband has been depressed (what we can call normal depression) twice before MLC depression. He knew he had become depressed, a third time, before BD and leave. MLC happens to men that know depression can happen to them.

Shortly, MLC usually takes the form of covert depression (for those who go through Replay) while normal depression is normally overt. A man (or woman) in severe overt depression is not going to run anywhere. They’re lucky if they manage to move out of the bed. Many times MLC becomes similar to Bipolar disorder, MCLers haev several Bipolar Disorder traits but they are not really Bipolar.

RCR articles on the main page and the several ones here, on the fix threads, under: Resources on MLC, will provide further and more detailed insight into MLC.

[moc]

sassy you said: I agree, MLC is a severe form of clinical depression.  There is an overwhelming need to run in depressed men, whereas women tend to shut down...OK, so at first I read this ALL WOMEN...my bad...my wife did shut down for a few weeks and then RAN!  And ran, and ran and ran.  Still running to this day.  Rarely settles and takes responsibility for her children.  So unless you count that she has shut down to me and the kids, she runs.  No ugliness, just my observation on my sitch.

angelgirl you said: women, in general, are more likely to identify that they are feeling "blue" and are less likely to be embarrassed by it and seek help...OK, here is the realization when you said IN GENERAL.  My wife tried to seek help twice in the past 16yr for her childhood issues but gave up.  The therapist would ask how she was doing that day and wifey would say fine.  Not try to really draw out her issues.  So wifey gave up.  This is typical for her as she rarely finishes what she starts.

onmyjourney I like what you said here: The other interesting thing from Anne Sheffield's book is it says "Moving forthrightly toward divorce frightens depression sufferers...sitting on the fence seems safer.  Manipulation allows them to stay there, and they count on partners to opt for even a brief ray of hope.  This explains why depressed partners talk about but shrink from initiating divorce proceedings."...I do hold onto this as sort of a constant.  Wifey has mentioned this a lot in the first 6mo after BD but never moved on it.  Still hasn't moved on it after us being separated for 2 months now.  I know when or if she mentions it to me again, she will have OM.  I am not stupid and she can go for it.  She has no money to do it so she can live in her own filth and sin.  This was very profound to me, thank you.

[kikki]

Have you read the Depression signs in MLC?

Apparently the person who wrote this works in the mental health field, and adapted the commonly known signs and symptoms of depression to the MLC scenario that she observed with her H and others going through this.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869

[OnMyJourney]

Kikki -  That's a great list! Thanks for posting it.

OMJ

[JAG]

kikki,

Thank you so much for that website.  I have read it only once....but I am about to print it so that I can re-read and re-read.  As I read down all those points I just kept smiling and nodding my head.  Smiling because it was as if I had written those words.  Almost every point on that list my H has hit.  Funny side note....I spoke to his best friend yesterday via skype and he saw me on video.  The first thing out of his mom "wow, you look great!".  He repeated that a couple of times and then said "I am sure inside you are not great, but you sure look great".  I said thank you....and then he continued and in a chuckle stated "when I ask H how he finds you , he says you look tired"....I then chuckled and said "well, I think he is the one that looks exhausted and not very put together...and of course I am a little tired....raising two children on my own is not a walk in the park".  Can you say projection from my H? He feels awful so he has to project how he feels onto me....classic!

[kikki]

It's a great list isn't it.  I printed it out months ago, and read it every couple of months or so. Think most of us can relate to nearly every MLC depression sign on that list, sadly.

Jag - we sure do get exhausted by this whole thing, but my MLCer looks like he's aged 20 years.  Scary stuff.

[JAG]

kikki...mine too! This entire thing is so crazy isn't it! I have taken Mamma Bear's advice and now I try to sit back and watch the show....while trying hard to keep that duck tape on my mouth....but man oh man how I wish I could say what is on my mind...and the worst part....we never got a chance to "save" our marriage....no way about it....just a one way street in this separation....arg

[angelgirl]

Kikki - thanks for that article. Fantastic read. My H went through most of those elements. H will readily admit he saw us as one person. Sometimes he still does. OW was suppose to be me. He pretty much said so. Now long gone, when he sees her from a distance, she is a completely different person -- To him (she was who she was all along). H heard and saw what he thought he heard and saw. OW believed (still does) I was the recreated version of what H described me to be. He has a dependent personality, can't handle stress etc....the list goes on. He is addressing these issues now. I see great progress, even though he is being challenged with life stresses.

MOC: Sorry if it looked like I made a generality about women and depression. It's only a comment in general terms; there are plenty of women out there that do not fall into that category. I'm sorry you are going through this; it is very real, and very painful. I send you my support.

angelgirl

[Anjae]

This article http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html is more oriented towards the chemical imbalance in mental health problems, like the levels of the neurotransmitters, shortage of serotonin, etc. and how that leads to depression. Some of the effects are very similar with MLC ones. Midlife crisis is even mentioned. This part is very eye opening:

Very low levels of Serotonin typically bring people to the attention of their family physician, their employer, or other sources of help. Severe Serotonin loss produces symptoms that are difficult to ignore. Not only are severe symptoms present, but also the brain’s ideation/thinking becomes very uncomfortable and even torturing. When Serotonin is severely low, you will experience some if not all of the following:

• Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.

• You’ll become emotionally numb! You wouldn’t know how you feel about your life, marriage, job, family, future, significant other, etc. It’s as though all feelings have been turned off. Asked by others how you feel – your response might be “I don’t know!”

• Outbursts will begin, typically two types. Crying outbursts will surface, suddenly crying without much warning. Behavioral outbursts will also surface. If you break the lead in a pencil, you throw the pencil across the room. Temper tantrums may surface. You may storm out of offices or public places.

• Escape fantasies will begin. The most common – Hit the Road! The brain will suggest packing up your personal effects and leaving the family and community.

• Memory torture will begin. Your brain, thinking at 100 miles an hour, will search your memories for your most traumatic or unpleasant experiences. You will suddenly become preoccupied with horrible experiences that may have happened ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago. You will relive the death of loved ones, divorce, childhood abuse – whatever the brain can find to torture you with – you’ll feel like it happened yesterday.

• You’ll have Evil Thoughts. New mothers may have thoughts about smothering their infants. Thoughts of harming or killing others may appear. You may be tortured by images/pictures in your memory. It’s as though the brain finds your most uncomfortable weak spot, then terrorizes you with it.

• With Serotonin a major bodily regulator, when Serotonin is this low your body becomes unregulated. You’ll experience changes in body temperature, aches/pains, muscle cramps, bowel/bladder problems, smothering sensations, etc. The “Evil Thoughts” then tell you those symptoms are due to a terminal disease. Depressed folks never have gas – it’s colon cancer. A bruise is leukemia.

• You’ll develop a Need-for-Change Panic. You’ll begin thinking a change in lifestyle (Midlife Crisis!), a divorce, an extramarital affair, a new job, or a Corvette will change your mood. About 70 percent of jobs are lost at this time as depressed individuals gradually fade away from their life. Most extramarital affairs occur at this time.

• As low Serotonin levels are related to obsessive-compulsive disorders, you may find yourself starting to count things, become preoccupied with germs/disease, excessively worry that appliances are turned off or doors locked, worry that televisions must be turned off on an even-numbered channel, etc. You may develop rituals involving safety and counting. One auto assembly plant worker began believing his work would curse automobiles if their serial number, when each number was added, didn’t equal an even number.

• Whatever normal personality traits, quirks, or attitudes you have, they will suddenly be increased three-fold. A perfectionist will suddenly become anxiously overwhelmed by the messiness of their environment or distraught over leaves that fall each minute to land on the lawn. Penny-pinchers will suddenly become preoccupied with the electric and water consumption in the home.

• A “trigger” event may produce bizarre behavior. Already moderately low in Serotonin, an animal bite or scratch may make you suddenly preoccupied with rabies. A media story about the harmful effects of radiation may make you remember a teenage tour of the local nuclear power plant – suddenly feeling all your symptoms are now the result of exposure to radiation.

• When you reach the bottom of “severely low” Serotonin, the “garbage truck” will arrive. Everyone with severely low Serotonin is told the same thing. You will be told 1) You’re a bad spouse, parent, child, employee, etc., 2) You are a burden to those who love or depend on you, 3) You are worsening the lives of those around you, 4) Those who care about you would be better if you weren’t there, 5) You would be better if you weren’t around, and 6) You and those around you would be better off if you were totally out of the picture. At that point, you develop suicidal thoughts.

I think it is safe to say that pre-MLC starts with chemical imbalance in the brain. And it carries on with chemical imbalance. In MLC all the chemicals are too messed up and they went under a personality change. When they get into replay, to whatever chemical shortages they may have, huge and damaging amounts of adrenaline are added to the mix. MLCers are walking imbalanced brain chemical bombs.

[FindingJoJo]

Wow AnneJ - I think you just described my day, lol.  I do have to say this day has been the worst one I have experienced in a while but man was it a toughy and I think I went through almost the complete list, there were a few that I missed thankfully but that pretty much summed up my swings all day long.  I haven't worked out this week due to being sick and have been housebound due to being sick so tomorrow I am planning on going to see my GF and spend a night away from the house.

I still want to move as I need to be near a bigger city not stuck in some out of the way rural  peyton place....lol.  I think I will have to own that one and hope that I can get there.  I won't move up north so I am trying for LV and it is a tough market.

I should say mine started with Depression, it escalated as his family keep pounding in his head about our marriage (they are all unhappy, having affairs and drinking heavily themselves so misery loves company), then when he turned 35 he wanted a bullet bike, he wanted a new truck and he wanted more partying with me, my only issue with any of those things were that I didn't want to party with the same old people all the time and didn't want to get into major debt until existing debt was taken care of and we built up a larger savings - translation I spend all his money (never mind it was on bills and never mind that he failed to keep within his spending budget due to alcohol spending but oh well).  Classic signs of MLC with wanting new things, then March came, surgery for me, injury, major infection all in the month I worked less because of it so income dropped money was tight and it was the trigger, bam he started the affair mid April because I was old and no fun....lol.  don't you just love how they project.  The only mean things he has really said was that he can't get me to be young (meaning getting tanked with the same people not wanting to have better adventures just his way or no way).  He tells people how mean I am and I was mean because of the affair and unhappily I have to live with my actions but other than that he didn't ever berate me, he wasn't negative about weight or other things he just took up with SP ($l()tty pants) and took off.  Talked to me two weeks ago and then nothing since of course it was my bday and our anniversary these last two weekends so it was to be expected.

Thanks for all the great information.

[kikki]

Thanks so much for sharing that AnneJ.  Very very interesting, and I agree with your thoughts

I think it is safe to say that pre-MLC starts with chemical imbalance in the brain. And it carries on with chemical imbalance. In MLC all the chemicals are too messed up and they went under a personality change. When they get into replay, to whatever chemical shortages they may have, huge and damaging amounts of adrenaline are added to the mix. MLCers are walking imbalanced brain chemical bombs.

[hope!]

AnneJ

Thanks for sharing that ......interesting stuff

[Mitzpah]

Very interesting, just what my h. experienced before BD and is possibly continuing to experience in replay

[Ready2Transform]

WOW.  I just want to verify that indeed, not only the bold items but the torturing thoughts and the speed of my thoughts were a major part of the worst phases of my own breakdown.  I take a LOT of supplements now (about 30 per day) and I think think that does a huge amount toward regulating my serotonin. 

[In this for ME]

AnneJ;

VERY informative post. I know I battle with low serotonin and ExH must be also.  But it's three more months until a Dr appt so I'm going to load up a list of what he needs to look at.

Low testosterone
Low serotonin


Finding;

$lutty Pants .....good one...it's got me giggling .....and probably will keep me that way all day....

[Chrysalis]

My ex suffered three bouts of depression in the six years before BD.  They were brought on by physical illness and each time he recognised the problem and was on anti-depressants.  He was still on ADs at BD (although I found out later that he stopped them when he moved in with OW).

He started them again just before he came back to me for a week six months after BD.  I've no idea if he is still on them but certainly when he was depressed before he was extremely clingy and didn't really want me to leave him at all.  Now he has no problem as he has OW to be with.  Interestingly he is very keen that his D21 goes back on ADs to help with her anorexia. 

[Anjae]

I don’t know if you’ve read the all article but it has more on serotonin and also has a part about Norepinephrine. For this neurotransmitter it says, among other things:

“Norepinephrine: From Arousal to Panic
Norepinephrine (NE) is the neurotransmitter often associated with the “fight or flight” response to stress. Strongly linked to physical responses and reactions, it can increase heart rate and blood pressure as well as create a sense of panic and overwhelming fear/dread. This neurotransmitter is similar to adrenaline and is felt to set threshold levels to stimulation and arousal. Emotionally, anxiety and depression are related to norepinephrine levels in the brain, as this neurotransmitter seems to maintain the balance between agitation and depression.

Low levels of norepinephrine are associated with a loss of alertness, poor memory, and depression. Norepinephrine appears to be the neurotransmitter of “arousal” and for that reason, lower-than-normal levels of this neurotransmitter produce below-average levels of arousal and interest, a symptom found in several psychiatric conditions including depression and ADHD. It is for this reason that medications for depression and ADHD often target both dopamine and norepinephrine in an attempt to restore both to normal level.

Mild elevations in our norepinephrine levels produce heightened arousal, something known to be produced by stimulants. This arousal is considered pleasurable and several “street drugs” such as cocaine and amphetamines work by increasing the brains level of norepinephrine. This increased sense of arousal is pleasurable, linking these substances to their potential for addiction. Research tells us that some individuals using antidepressants develop a state of “hypomania” or emotional elation and physical arousal in this same manner. For that reason, individuals using modern antidepressants are often cautioned to notify their treating physician/psychiatrist if they become “too happy”.

Moderately high levels of norepinephrine create a sense of arousal that becomes uncomfortable. Remembering that this neurotransmitter is strongly involved in creating physical reactions, moderate increases create worry, anxiety, increased startle reflex, jumpiness, fears of crowds & tight places, impaired concentration, restless sleep, and physical changes. The physical symptoms may include rapid fatigue, muscle tension/cramps, irritability, and a sense of being on edge. Almost all anxiety disorders involve norepinephrine elevations.”


We’re dealing with spouses that are a total chemical/hormonal mess (add to all these possible problems in low/high testorenone/estrogen) and it becomes really scary.

Ready2 30 supplements per day? That is a lot. I think I don’t want to know how many may husband would need after he hit rock bottom… I think

l they have burned out all the chemical fuel  they will keep running. The totally messed up chemicals are I think, the reason why in Replay they are unable to solve any issues. Was thinking if this chemical vision of depression/MLC would contradict what I have wrote on Kikki’s previous thread Positive changes http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2443.0  about the soul/self/shadow/integration/rebirth. I don’t think so. Their soul is very damaged, trapped under all the chemical mess. The more extreme and damaging for their emotional and physical health their behaviour the worst for their soul and bodies (I think this chemical madness along with the lifestyle creates the physical decay and ruin and upsets and amazes me so much). I think one can say that the Shadow is their chemical imbalanced version, their dark twisted side. And it will only go away when they are no longer capable getting their”fix”, when they can no longer achieve a high, no matter what they do or try. Then, rock bottom and overt depression are the only things left. From then on, slowly, they may start to rebuil, reintegrate and rebirth.

JoJo, yes, it is lovely when they project. Not!  Oh, I see, your husband has found the fountain of youth, or a time travelling machine, and managed to made himself young…  and he is very sorry he is not able to share those miracles with you and made you young… MLCers… Of course you were mean, we all were. This board is full of mean, horrible spouses… 

[kikki]

Well - can't believe myself.  I printed your fantastic article out yesterday AnneJ, and had it sitting on the kitchen bench as I was reading it again over my morning coffee.  Left it sitting out.
My H just arrived, unannounced - he hasn't done this in a while.  S16 and I were the only ones home, and we felt a bit peeved, but he apparently came to try to fix S17's car. (This man is no mechanic, but I appreciated him taking responsibility for it though.  A change.)

Anyway - he saw the article sitting on the bench and actually asked about it.  The words just came out of my mouth 'I printed it out thinking you might be interested in the information for your brother (who they all think is either an undiagnosed schizophrenic, or bipolar??).  It explains all of the new information coming out now about neurotransmitters in the brain, and has a great analogy about them being similar to fluid levels in a vehicle.  Too much or too little and it causes problems.'  He said 'oh he wouldn't be interested in anything like this, but I would be, because we seem to have a family history of this stuff!'.

Well - bowl me over with a feather.  28mths post BD and the man wants to read about his brain.  Don't worry - I won't be holding my breath or anything.  Will be interesting to hear whether he mentions it again or not???

[Thundarr]

Anne, I agree with every bit of that article and have always maintained there HAS to be a biological component to this.  Very intriguing is the notion that childhood issues only are seen as part of this BECAUSE of the depression and that they are not the cause of it.  Also, the tone of voice my W used early on when she brought up all the bad things I had done was very surreal.  She spoke of things from 20 years ago with the clarity and insistense as if they had happened yesterday, and even I had to stop and get my bearings before realizing they were two decades ago.  When I would point that out to her she would only look at me in a confused way and say that she didn't forgive easily, which made no sense given that she had not brought them up in over 20 years.  I told myself that she must have met someone and was justifying her actions, but logically meeting someone would not contribute to someone's memory becoming so incredibly sharp and detailed about negative things. If anything, the euphoria of a new love would cause someone to look at the world in a better way and remember fewer negatives.  I believe this article explains many things the best I have seen it yet.  Unfortunately, the knowledge does nothing to make my situation any better although it does help me to have less anger toward my W.

[Ready2Transform]

WOW kikki!!  Talk about divine intervention!!  No expectations, but prayers going out that it helps close the gap for you guys.  You deserve a breakthrough with him, and this would be at the least a wonderful place for dialog to start.

Thundarr, my experience with my H has been the same.  Biggest problem happened 13 years ago that he's thrown in my face, and this article is helping me reconcile that.  I also remember being very angry at my father for things at least a decade old at the height of my crisis.

[Dontgiveup]

From RCR's article on Liminality
This is not the disease of Clinical Depression; rather it is a dis-ease manifested as grief; the MLCer falls to rock bottom, the home of the Shadow. This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm's ledge and try not to fall. The depression gets deeper with the Liminality phase when the old Self dies to create a new Self--Ego-Death. The MLCer has no Self; he is suspended in nothingness.

[kikki]

Divine Intervention all right Ready2 
Will be most interesting to see whether he takes it on board, or burns the article  .
It would be great if he did think about it - he obviously is starting to put two and two together.  He would have to be fed up with feeling this way by now - surely!

Thundarr - I was hoping you'd come across this thread. Always interested in your point of view. 

Very intriguing is the notion that childhood issues only are seen as part of this BECAUSE of the depression and that they are not the cause of it.

It is very intriguing.  I have always believed there to be a biological component to this, but I do also believe it is a cocktail of other things too.  I don't think you get the crisis without the 'perfect storm' of components. 

[Anjae]

That is amazing, Kikki! Maybe your husband may realise his state has something to do with Too little or too much fluids in his brain.

I also found the analogy between car and brain fluids to be great, It makes it very easy to understand. d has a great analogy about them being similar to fluid levels in a vehicle. 

Thundarr, to me it makes much more sense than biological chemical/hormonal are a component, and I think a major one, of MLC than childhood issues to be the main component/reason of the crisis.

It makes sense that the childhood issues arise when the depression sets in. Those and many other issues. Agree with you, meeting someone does not contribute to have negative situations becoming so sharp. Like Kikki I think the crisis is a conjugation of factors. But the biological component sharpens or turns more acute any other issues.

Exactly, if anything the enthusiasm of a new love would make someone see everything pink and bright. And that is not what happens. They may find OW/OM fantastic but all their past was a disaster. At all their past was a disaster even to those, like my cousin, who never had OW.

Sadly, no, the article does nothing to make our situations any better. But may allow us a further understanding of MLC.


DGU but before Liminal depression there is already depression. The whole crisis is filled with depression. They are already depressed before BD. My husband, like many other MLCers, had said, several times before he left, that he was depressed. The doctor on his company confirmed he was depressed. Clinical and chronic depression are the more acute forms of depression. Those, like all other types, have several levels of intensity. I’m not so certain MLC is di-sease rather than disease…

If we are dealing with depression, of whatever type/intensity, we are dealing with a health matter.

I still don’t think it changes the Shadow idea/thought. According to Jung:

“The Shadow
The shadow is an unconscious complex that is defined as the repressed and suppressed aspects of the conscious self.
There are constructive and destructive types of shadow.

On the destructive side, it often represents everything that the conscious person does not wish to acknowledge within themselves. For instance, someone who identifies as being kind has a shadow that is harsh or unkind. Conversely, an individual who is brutal has a kind shadow. The shadow of persons who are convinced that they are ugly appears to be beautiful.

On the constructive side, the shadow may represent hidden positive influences. This has been referred to as "the gold in the shadow". Jung points to the story of Moses and Al-Khidr in the 18th Book of the Koran as an example.
Jung emphasized the importance of being aware of shadow material and incorporating it into conscious awareness, lest one project these attributes on others.
The shadow in dreams is often represented by dark figures of the same gender as the dreamer.

According to Jung the human being deals with the reality of the Shadow in four ways: denial, projection, integration and/or transmutation.”

And, also according to him:

“Individuation
Jung introduced the concept of individuation. This brief summary is based on a chapter by Henri Ellenberger in the book "The Discovery of the Unconscious."
While important to many people, the concept of individuation takes on a deep meaning for adults at midlife—a time at which life’s meaning and purpose come to the fore. In writing about Jung, Ellenberger described midlife or Lebenswende as representing a profound change, gradual or sudden—that can manifest from "long-repressed intellectual or spiritual needs".  This change may be seen as a gift from the unconscious—a warning to take full advantage and not waste this precious second half of life.

The process of individuating can take a lifetime. It consists of a series of metamorphoses (the death/rebirth cycle), such as birth/infancy, puberty, adulthood, and midlife. If one can individuate at midlife, the ego is no longer at the center, and the individual makes some sort of peace with her/his mortality.”

I admire and like Jung works a lot but we need to keep in mind that he was theoretical psychologist. He was also a practising psychiatrist but he died in 1961. Since then major progress has been done in the study of the brain. We now have access to PET scans, MRIs and other things. And the more and more psychiatry is picking things from neurology, including medicines (what has improved my cousin condition was a medicine my friend, the psychiatrist, gave him that before was only used in neurology).

We also have to have in mind that many times psychiatrists/psychoanalysts/ psychologists/therapist just look and listen to people, they do not request blood, brain and other tests. So, essentially, they are diagnosing things without knowing how the brain chemicals, hormonal levels, thyroid levels and others are. They tell this is this and it is because of this but, in many cases, do not choose to see if there is any biological cause for the situation they have before them.

RCR, if you are reading this thread, and what I’ve posted in DGU It’s in the Articles, I would like to know what is your though on this.

[Dontgiveup]

Thundarr, to me it makes much more sense than biological chemical/hormonal are a component, and I think a major one, of MLC than childhood issues to be the main component/reason of the crisis.

Here is part of what was posted on my thread...."Your Emotional Hurt Can Seriously Alter Your Brain Chemistry".  This seems to indicate, at least from this author, that the emotional issues may cause the chemical issues in the brain.

It makes sense that the childhood issues arise when the depression sets in.

See above
 
DGU but before Liminal depression there is already depression. The whole crisis is filled with depression.

So why do we need the term MLC?  Why don't we just call it depression?

I’m not so certain MLC is di-sease rather than disease…If we are dealing with depression, of whatever type/intensity, we are dealing with a health matter.

If true, then MLC should be treatable at any stage

Since then major progress has been done in the study of the brain.

Again, the information at the beginning of this post seems to indicate emotional hurt can affect brain chemistry.

[kikki]

This is not the disease of Clinical Depression; rather it is a dis-ease manifested as grief; the MLCer falls to rock bottom, the home of the Shadow. This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm's ledge and try not to fall. The depression gets deeper with the Liminality phase when the old Self dies to create a new Self--Ego-Death. The MLCer has no Self; he is suspended in nothingness.

Not the disease of clinical depression, rather dis-ease manifested as grief?  I also believe clinical depression (covert and overt) shows throughout the whole of the crisis.
RCR may have written this prior to knowledge of the research now showing from scans, that we are now benefitting from?
I believe it is MLC and not JUST depression, because it is a jigsaw puzzle of biological factors (neurotransmitters, hormones), developmental factors, spiritual factors, personality style (avoidant), and therefore lack of coping mechanisms during stressful times of your life when responsibilities are many and your body is wearing down and feeling tired.

[Dontgiveup]

I am still curious for feedback as to why MLC is not treatable if the information about biological components/depression is the root cause instead of emotional/developmental issues.

[kikki]

Personally, from everything that I have read so far, I believe it is both the disease of clinical depression plus dis-ease due to the culmination of other mid life factors (as described here on the forum).

Mid life depression has often been called the 'Mother of all depressions'.

Midlifers do not wish to seek help, as they are experiencing an enormous pull to run away and abandon their former lives and responsibilities. 
To be able to treat them medically, we would have to have laws written, that gave permission to put them in straight jackets and take them away for treatment against their will, should they be displaying a certain number of symptoms.  As they are so adept at their public masks and their private MLC selves, who could legally decide that they were displaying those signs and symptoms?  The family couldn't do it.  They put their mask on for medical, psychiatric, psychological professionals.
I have witnessed this myself.

Even if the MLCer was force fed treatment for the clinical depression component, I believe they still need to work through the other mid life factors.  Support and understanding of what is required would be helpful, but not likely to be taken on board even if offered, given the fact that they all pretty much deny that there is anything wrong with them in the first place, because their thinking is so skewed during this time. 

[Anjae]

DGU, there are two titles and two similar articles from the same author. I’ve posted parts of both on your thread and one here. The essence of both articles is the same, the chemical imbalance and the problems in the neurotransmitter cause depression.


One of the articles can be read here: (the one in your thread) and the one in this thread here:
They have different beginning and are address in slightly different ways. The first one is aimed at families of people with borderline personality disorder and called “Stop Being Tortured by Your Own Thoughts http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a112.htm, the second one is, from what I get, an academic paper “The “Chemical Imbalance” in Mental Health Problems http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html (the oen posted on this thread. The first one is focused in a more specific type of mental problem, the second one deals with chemical imbalances overall. The beginning is different but most of the main points addressed are the same.

Of course an emotional hurt can harm the brain and its chemicals. It is a hurt, it triggers neurological responses that can imbalance the normal levels of brain chemical. The same is true for a euphoric reaction, a rush of adrenaline and many other things. The contrary is also true, chemical imbalance can affect emotional response and perception.

The fact that an emotional hurt/pain is real is the reason why I have many times said here on the board, in different threads, that hurt must not be minimized (usually when saying that I’m referring to the pain of the LBS) because it is real, it is felt by the brain. It is not an imaginary thing that we can ignore and overcome from night to day. It takes time, we need to adjust. 

However, emotional hurt/pain alone do not cause the crisis. Otherwise all LBS would have had a MLC post BD. And that did not happened. And, of course, our spouses had felt emotional hurt before. We do not have any way of knowing what caused it for our spouses. If it was emotional hurt that caused the chemical brain imbalance or if their brains were chemical imbalanced and that caused emotional distress.

Kikki, in the end of the second article (the one on this thread) reads “This article is presented as a public service by Joseph M. Carver, Ph.D., a Clinical Psychologist. Revised: January 2002”. I thing this type of research has been around for a while but I think it used to be more addressed at neurologists.

We tend to see depression had a psychiatric problem, nor a neurological one. And those two areas of medicine, traditionally, were not the best friends on earth. But more and more psychiatrists are learning and taking from neurology. Not enough, if you ask me.

DGU, Not all depressions are treatable in the sense of solvable. Chronic depression has no cure. One can only mitigate it. But, yes, I think that if there was a way of taking our MLCers to a good neurologist or psychiatrist, ones that would be up to do all those needed tests, the crisis could be, if not totally treated, at least mitigated or alleviated. Of course our MLCers would have to take the medication and many psychiatric patients,  suffering from all sorts of psychiatric conditions do not. For instance, many Schizophrenics tend to avoid medication because they say “it calms them down” and leaves them slow. Normally what happens is that the medication levels them but they found being balanced/normal wrong and try to skip the medicines. Needless to say without the medicines they end up a total mess.

MLC can be one other type of depression. There are many types, why not having MLC has a new/other type? It obviously is not classical clinical depression. Perhaps, in a way, it is the mother of all clinical depressions?...

This Kikki I would say is very much it : “a jigsaw puzzle of biological factors (neurotransmitters, hormones), developmental factors, spiritual factors, personality style (avoidant), and therefore lack of coping mechanisms during stressful times of your life when responsibilities are many and your body is wearing down and feeling tired.”

Also, I think we can see MLC in, at leas, two ways:

1)   what Kikki said, that is, biological, emotional and other factors
2)   an emotional issue that need to be overcome

I still think the chemical/hormonal factors do not invalidate the Shadow. We are dealing with the Shadow, with all the garbage and the darkest of the dark side. The light was cut off, only the darkness exist. Or put another way, the brain fluids are all too short or too high, there is nothing but a blur and despair.

Reintegration and Rebirth are also not compromised by the chemical/hormonal factors. Anyone who has been depressed needs reintegration and will have a Rebirth.

And, the soul, of course, is totally broken. The soul is not the brain in itself, it is a more metaphysical thing. At least in my view.

So, will we be able to treat MLC? I doubt. When they BD us they are already too far out of their heads and they need to run until they totally burn out. Of course we can try and use a rifle with a tranquiliser dart, shoot them with it, tie them to a bed and have them tested, scanned, probed and force feed medicines.  Not sure if we manage to do that… 

[Anjae]

I am still curious for feedback as to why MLC is not treatable if the information about biological components/depression is the root cause instead of emotional/developmental issues.

Because they've run and since they've run were not able to have them treated. They see nothing wrong with them, why would they treat themselves?

It is on the article, the imbalance makes them want to run.

And, before they run, did we knew what they have? I think we did not. And even those who knew they were unwell, like myself, and tried to have husbadn treated, got no luck. Husband refused the treatment.

Now, how could we treat them? One of the things some hospitals and psychiatrics do, to have Schizophrenics out of meds is to give them a monthly shot. Usually they start giving the shot when the Schizophrenic has a seizure, therefore requiring being taken to hospital emergency, and keep on from then. If a Schizophrenic never misses a monthy shot they never go down and never start having the mad thoughts they do otherwise.

If we could do the same to our MLCers I think we would have it solved. Or at least mitigated. But how are we going to stop them before BD (many of us have no clue about what is going on) ot after BD? And, as far as I know, medicines to depression are pills. They can stop take the pills.

Plus, it would require that all health professionals would be aware of what is happening with our spouse. We already know that most of them don’t have a clue.

DGU, how do you treat a person that does not want to be treated? Take Mermaid's husband. He knows he is depressed, he is doctor. He does not treat himself. He does nothing to improve his own depression.

[Dontgiveup]

However, emotional hurt/pain alone do not cause the crisis. Otherwise all LBS would have had a MLC post BD.

I should clarify that I believe it's emotional development issues at an earlier age......not emotional hurt and pain.  I agree that we all experience emotional hurt and pain.  The lack of development has affected the coping skills of the MLCer.  The coping skills of the LBS are certainly put to the test, but thankfully....at least for most of us.....coping skills are there.

[Dontgiveup]

If we could do the same to our MLCers I think we would have it solved. Or at least mitigated.

Thank you for your response.  If I'm reading correctly, you believe MLC would be treatable if the MLCer would allow it.

Since I believe MLC is a development issue, I believe it must be gone through.

Interesting stuff, and I am certainly not a scientist.

[Anjae]

You’re welcome. Yes, treatable in the same way as a severe depression. That is, it would have to be a slow, gradual and very well done treatment. Most “normal” depressions are not well treated. Both doctors and patients tend to want fast results. Never a good idea with these delicate issues.

And, of course, the treatment in the case of MLC could not be just medicines. No point in using them if the person was going to go back to the same things and ways of being. So, in a way, it would have to be a MLC, with the growing and development, but without the destruction. Really more a mitigate of the crisis than a “cure”. Even because the medicines on their own do not automatically solve a depression. They give a big help but more than that  is required.

I do not disagree that emotional development issues at an earlier age can be a factor. But not the only one. For instances, my husband had to put to use is coping skills a few times before the crisis and he managed it. For some reason this time it was all too much and crisis come to be.

Very interesting stuff indeed. I have another appointment for my cousin, with the psychiatrist, in a month and I have previously agreed with the doctor that I will have some time to make questions about husband, MLC, chemical brain imbalanced, emotional development issues, coping skills, etc.

I’ve been having several talks with that friend (the psychiatrist) of mine about this issues, following his work with his patients (they suffer from several conditions, from mild depression to heavy schizophrenia, passing by bipolarity, borderline and any other existent psychiatric disorder), and learning a lot about this stuff. Fascinating but also frightening. Our mind can be destroyed with very little and, under certain circumstances, it can happen to any one of us.

[Sassyone]

Depression is a component of the MLC.  So the depression part can be treated, and aside from anti-depressants, talk therapy to go through the issues is a must.  The part that is hard is to get an MLC'er to get the therapy and ADs.  I am convinced that my H's replay was far shorter than most because he placated me and when to therapy and his psych dr. for meds. 

He was a typical MLCer in that he lied to the therapist and MC until almost two months after he started taking ADs (tried 2 different types) when then meds finally clicked in.  He has told me that at that point he knew something was wrong with him and could finally allow certain things to seep in for him to process.  He also told me it wasn't until the psych, therapist and MC told him he was depressed that he believed it.  Once he allowed himself to believe that there was a psychological and physical cause of why he was feeling like he was, he allowed himself to move forward and out of replay. 

We talked a lot this weekend about depression and replay.  He told me it was a stimulant that he was constantly looking for like a high of sorts.  He also said it didn't matter if it was a good stimulant (i.e. sex, ow) or bad stimulant (fights with OW, me, the kids), he needed the adrenaline high.  It really made me see why the monstering part was so volatile . . . he needed his fix.  He also explained how when he knew the ADs were working and his brain would clear and he could think. 

I am a firm believer that depression is also a life long disease that needs to be managed.  Once you have a clinical depression, you are more likely to have recurring bouts.

Hugs,

Sassy

[WarriorSprit]

Depression is hard for me to talk about but here goes some of what my life has been like with a w that is depressed. Our kids don't think she loves them. She holds her love an uses it as power over us. She took meds for 15 years. She quit taking them on her own 6 years ago. She now says the meds and doctors caused her depression. She is severly depressed now. This is what caused her MLC and she completely thinks there is nothing wrong with her. I brought up depression a few months ago to plant a seed. I said I know a friend at work his wife was feeling down and she talked to somebody and got better. I then changed the subject. W went back to it angry saying talking to people leads to other things. I think she meant this is how her affair started. This is almost impossible to talk about as they don't want to think there is anything wrong with them. This is the battle. God bless you all.

[LoveMeMyself]

SassyOne or anybody who has any thoughts.

My exH is on antidepressants and has been now for a long time.  His demeanor has changed; he is calmer, seems more like himself, etc.  He continues to state things such as the "I can't undo what's been done, or I can't un-ring the bell".  Just to give a little history: my exH was already taking medicine for social anxiety and visiting a therapists prior to BD.  Directly after BD his moods, cycles, monster, etc. were off the charts!  He continued with the same therapist but medications were given in increased amounts.  I started noticing memory issues with my exH along with some very deep darkness.  Then 21 months after BD he had a failed suicide attempt...........overdosed.  This was to me a blessing in disguise as it got him straightened out with better doctors and more regulated medicine.  He was such a different man.........like the man I married.  Well, just a few months ago (April) he had another severe bout of depression and went back to his doctor.  He was put back on antidepressants.  He had stopped taking them earlier because he said he felt better and thought he could cope.  We have very limited contact.  I try not to initiate and wait for him.  He had gotten to a point where he would contact me about every two or three weeks.  Last contact I had was a week ago but I had to initiate as I had an issue with our joint vacation property.  We got into a relationship conversation which I regret but can't "undo what's been done".  I haven't heard anything from him since. 

So, I'm questioning the fact that my exH is on medication for the depression and under a doctor's care (therapy) but I don't see any possibilities of his return to me or any movement forward regarding our relationship.  It's looking more to me like he's convinced all his actions were "depression" based.  So, why should I think or hope for him to come through the tunnel and want to return?  Does being treated for depression make it easier for them to accept that's all this is.......and not MLC?

[Sassyone]

LoveMyMan:

Every situation is different and I personally believe the more problems they have stemming from their childhood the longer the bout will be.  Remember depression is just a part of the MLC.  You can't just take a pill and it will go away.  My H is still in MLC and acknowledges it as such.  (Very unusual and he did not do so at first.)  However, he does take his ADs and continues with MC and IC regularly.  His psych told him that once he feels 100% better (he isn't there yet) he will still be on his meds for a whole year afterwards.  So the meds help his chemical imbalance, the therapy (once he was honest and open most MLC'ers are not when in replay) helps him tackle his FOO issues.  Both therapy and medication must be consistent.  On and off meds can cause havoc with the MLC'er.

So since you have, I am assuming, no idea if he is being consistent with his meds or therapy (and if he is truthful in therapy) it is hard to say. 

"I can't undo what's been done, or I can't un-ring the bell". 

  This is a typical MLC'er statement.  While it is true that you can't go back in time, you can move forward and forgive.  I always found that answering and acknowledging that in a truthful manner was food for thought when H was monstery or said that.  I would just agree and say, we all make mistakes, some bigger than others, you are going through something, I am here for you and want to help you when you are ready. 

Any way you slice it . . . this is a very long journey, each of our sitchs are similar yet different.  For my H, meds helped and therapy helped and is helping but he had to be willing and he really wasn't at first.  The first set of ADs he was on did not work and honestly the only reason he tired another was at my persistence because of some sexual side effects (which coincidentally he still has, but not to the same degree as on the previous med.)  He also has low/normal testosterone which he is finding a lot harder to have a doctor treat him for it.  So personally I feel there are a lot of components in MLC, some physical, emotional, mental, etc., that form the perfect storm in our MLC'ers.

Hugs,

Sassy

[LoveMeMyself]

Thanks for replying, SassyOne.  I appreciate your information and insight regarding the depression, MLC situation, etc.  I realize it is what it is........right?  There's no way around it..........must go through it.  I also realize, nothing, no matter what, will "fix" it or make it go any faster.  So, regardless of depression, treatment (meds or therapy or both), it is going through the MLC process.  My exH only admits to depression.  He once stated among a group of female co-workers that he's gone through a Midlife crisis twice and the last one (this one) is the worst.  I believe he did it in a joking manner but non the less he acknowledged it.  I mentioned the possibility to him in the very beginning and he got angry at me and said no, it's just depression.  Later, I gave him information and Conway's book.  He hasn't come forward admitting to having a MLC.  So, trust the process, accept it and let it be. 

I asked the question regarding "undo what's been done" on the "Ask the Mentor" thread.  RCR wrote some very good information as to how to handle such a comment.  Very good information. 

I also believe the AD's my exH takes has an effect on his "performance".  Before BD he actually discussed it with a doctor who gave him a prescription to help enhance his libido.  This was just a few short months of BD..........which he finally filled the prescription only to use on his OW#1 at the time.  He has mentioned testosterone levels to me but only briefly.  I had once suggested that he needed to get it checked.  He said he didn't want to seem like a man looking for a medical reason for everything wrong.  So, whatever.  I do not believe he has an OW now.  I think the fact that his lib do is as it is he has no interest what-so-ever. 

Thanks again.

[Sassyone]

LoveMyMan:

Depression can often be caused by low T too.  Sounds like your H is at least thinking about MLC.  It takes a lot for them to admit it that's for sure.  Depression, MLC are those hush hush lets not talk about it things.  I bet if they became more main stream discussions more people would seek treatment or at least be educated on them.

I am sure my H tried a second AD because of OW who I didn't know about at the time too. 

Hugs,

Sassy

[OnMyJourney]

Been managing a horse show office for 4 days with no internet access.  Finally came up for air  :)and realized I've missed so much great discussion.

Thank you AnneJ for the excellent articles and to everyone for your thoughts!   

I have so many comments and questions that I'll have to respond separately when I can.

OMJ

[OnMyJourney]

Kikki - thanks for that article. Fantastic read. My H went through most of those elements. H will readily admit he saw us as one person.

I think I've also read that seeing your partner and yourself as one person is part of co-dependency. 

OMJ

[OnMyJourney]

• Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.
[

I also wonder if this happens in stages or cycles because in the days before H left he was highly agitated and was recalling  abusive incidents that happened to him as a child, as well as a tramatic incident that happened to him as an adult. 

[OnMyJourney]

Clinical and chronic depression are the more acute forms of depression. Those, like all other types, have several levels of intensity. I’m not so certain MLC is di-sease rather than disease…

Apparently there is also the depression type call "anhedonia".  Some psychiatrists say that they commonly hear complaints of "falling out of love" from their patients and think these are prime examples of anhedonia.  It causes your capacity for pleasure to be so low that it takes enormous stimulation to feel anything.

This made me think about Sassyone's H:

We talked a lot this weekend about depression and replay.  He told me it was a stimulant that he was constantly looking for like a high of sorts.  He also said it didn't matter if it was a good stimulant (i.e. sex, ow) or bad stimulant (fights with OW, me, the kids), he needed the adrenaline high.  It really made me see why the monstering part was so volatile . . . he needed his fix.  He also explained how when he knew the ADs were working and his brain would clear and he could think. 

I wonder if he needed these "stimulants"  just to feel anything at all.

OMJ

[OnMyJourney]

I am still curious for feedback as to why MLC is not treatable if the information about biological components/depression is the root cause instead of emotional/developmental issues.

Good question. 
In one of RCR's articles (couldn't find right now) it mentions that some MLCer's get to a point where they start taking ADs and I got the impression that this then helped them to see clearer.  I've also read from other post-MLCer's that taking AD's helped them see how irrational their thinking was.  This makes me think it's treatable. 

Another problem with depressives is that they are in denial and adamantly believe that nothing is wrong because they are so convinced that their thoughts are real and rational so it is VERY difficult to get them to treatment. 

 

  So the depression part can be treated, and aside from anti-depressants, talk therapy to go through the issues is a must.  The part that is hard is to get an MLC'er to get the therapy and ADs.  I am convinced that my H's replay was far shorter than most because he placated me and when to therapy and his psych dr. for meds. 

He was a typical MLCer in that he lied to the therapist and MC until almost two months after he started taking ADs (tried 2 different types) when then meds finally clicked in.  He has told me that at that point he knew something was wrong with him and could finally allow certain things to seep in for him to process.  He also told me it wasn't until the psych, therapist and MC told him he was depressed that he believed it.  Once he allowed himself to believe that there was a psychological and physical cause of why he was feeling like he was, he allowed himself to move forward and out of replay. 

Sassyone -  In your h's case it sounds as though depression was the issue in your H's situation.

[OnMyJourney]

Since I believe MLC is a development issue, I believe it must be gone through.

Jame's Hollis' Midlife Passages book talks about midlife crisis (he doesn't use this term) as a passage. This book is not a light read by any account.  A reader summarized Hollis's views as,  "he sees it as wonderful warnings that new directions are needed to achieve a meaningful life. He compares the depression, the loss of energy, the unexplained anger, the flare up of passion, as earthquake type pressures that give evidence of the rumblings below.

The passage allows for us to accept our shadow so that one's faults are put in perspective and do not weigh one down day after day with guilt and flashbacks and recriminations. This gives us the strength to go into the final years where one by one we lose all those whom we have loved and eventually they will lose us."

 

[Anjae]

You’re welcome, OMJ.

My husband never told me he saw us as one person. We did see ourselves as a unit, but that is what a couple is. Two people that complement each other, whose total is more than the parts.

Good question, OMJ. Does the thinking speed in their heads happens in stages or cycles… I think the thinking is pretty fast before, during and after BD. From the correspondence that my husband exchanged with OW1 it is possible to see is mind, and what he terms “his felings” start to race up the more he starts to decide to leave. He never brought anything from childhood up but he was totally manic a couple of weeks before he left and until some 2 or 3 months out of home.

The thinking may calm down when they are more stable with other person but I’m only guessing here. When they are heading towards rock bottom, and they start to feel nothing can hold them from it, their heads, again, start to go fast. At least the last one happened to my cousin (my cousin never left or got OW).

Mermaid writes a bit about anhedonia in her threads/posts since her husband suffers from it. Her husband is more a wallower that a replayer. Anhedonia is part of depression, since when we are depressed we lost the joy of doing things we used to like. We see everything grey and have interest for nothing. It is also part of Schizophrenia. In our MLCers it has to do with the depression since they are not Schizophrenics. Maybe some suffer more severely from and for those who are wallowers it may be more obvious because the don’t engage in all those activities than the ones in Replay and High Replay engage. I think wallowers don’t have the amount of adrenaline rush than replayers have some their anhedonia can be more obvious. They are apathetic, visibly numb, sometimes it is like they are dragging themselves.

I think that if MLCers take AD they start to see things more clear. That does not mean the crisis is over. A depression is not over because one is taking the meds, let alone a MLC. But the Ad help to see how irrational the behaviour is, so it may make it milder.

Jame's Hollis' Midlife Passages book talks about midlife crisis (he doesn't use this term) as a passage. This book is not a light read by any account.  A reader summarized Hollis's views as,  "he sees it as wonderful warnings that new directions are needed to achieve a meaningful life. He compares the depression, the loss of energy, the unexplained anger, the flare up of passion, as earthquake type pressures that give evidence of the rumblings below.

The passage allows for us to accept our shadow so that one's faults are put in perspective and do not weigh one down day after day with guilt and flashbacks and recriminations. This gives us the strength to go into the final years where one by one we lose all those whom we have loved and eventually they will lose us."

I don’t disagree that MLC is a passage. However I don’t think it is necessary to get to the extremes our MLCer get to have that passage. And I’m certain many MLCers, like of us, already know they have a dark side. My husband always said he had a Darth Vader side. It is true, like us all, he had a dark side. But that dark side never got out of hand.

In my view the crisis magnifies the Shadow, augmenting ones faults, and creating much more guilt than the previous existing one. And it will leave people forever regretting what they have done. In that sense, it does not take any guilt away, let alone if the MLCer end up without the spouse and the marriage.

A person who had done what our MLCers have done may be burdened with it forever. I find what they do (to us and themselves) too much of a high price to pay to become a better and stronger person.

It almost like saying Europe become much better and stronger after being totally devastated and destroyed by WWII. Even if so, the price was too high (and for half of Europe that stronger and better only come many decades after Soviet Unuion crumble to pieces) Not to mention we (Europe) are, again, heading the same way, making people paying a too high price because of a crisis, an economic/financial one.

I would vote any day for a less better and less stronger husband than the maybe, after MLC, stronger and better version. Yes, husband, and all our spouses, may become much better but… I’m not so sure it will be/is/was worthy all the pain and devastation. Even less when one thinks that, with meds, it could have been minimized.

[Dontgiveup]

Just as an fyi.....there is a thread somewhere on this site about James Hollis and "self-actualization", which I called a fancy term for the maturation process.

[Sassyone]

This made me think about Sassyone's H:

We talked a lot this weekend about depression and replay.  He told me it was a stimulant that he was constantly looking for like a high of sorts.  He also said it didn't matter if it was a good stimulant (i.e. sex, ow) or bad stimulant (fights with OW, me, the kids), he needed the adrenaline high.  It really made me see why the monstering part was so volatile . . . he needed his fix.  He also explained how when he knew the ADs were working and his brain would clear and he could think. 

I wonder if he needed these "stimulants"  just to feel anything at all.

OMJ, yes that is exactly what he said.  He felt dead inside.

Hugs,

Sassy

[honour]

In my view the crisis magnifies the Shadow, augmenting ones faults, and creating much more guilt than the previous existing one. And it will leave people forever regretting what they have done. In that sense, it does not take any guilt away, let alone if the MLCer end up without the spouse and the marriage.

A person who had done what our MLCers have done may be burdened with it forever. I find what they do (to us and themselves) too much of a high price to pay to become a better and stronger person.

I have to agree Anne. The writings and views of James Hollis make me feel uneasy.

honour

[kikki]

A person who had done what our MLCers have done may be burdened with it forever. I find what they do (to us and themselves) too much of a high price to pay to become a better and stronger person.

I agree too Anne. Healing if they're one of the ones to get through it - but at what price?

[Anjae]

A person who had done what our MLCers have done may be burdened with it forever. I find what they do (to us and themselves) too much of a high price to pay to become a better and stronger person.

I agree too Anne. Healing if they're one of the ones to get through it - but at what price?

I don't know, Kikki... I guess we all have to wait and see. And we may have to wait many years...

[FinallyGettingThere]

I know depression is a very real part of MLC, I've read all the stories and articles.

But my H's family are all on antidepressants, (two of three sisters and his mother) so I'm sure its genetic in his family.  He started displaying signs of depression around 2003-2004 when I was going to be having major surgery.  He was very upset, weepy, and stressed out.  He thought it was just due to my upcoming surgery.  But he went on antidepressants, I had my surgery and came out of it really well.  He was feeling better and not worried about me anymore so he went off the pills.  He then had a minor heart attack in 2006, about two years after my surgery (he was 42 at the time).  Between 2003-2006 he was having some problems in the bedroom, we thought maybe prostate problems, but turns out when he saw a specialist that everything was OK there.  After his heart attack things went from not great to bad, even Viagra or any of the other pres meds he tried didn't work.  I was trying to be supportive and reassuring him and not pressuring him in any way.  I just didn't realize what was going on.  Now looking back I think he's been clinical depressed.  Our family doctor is convinced he's clinically depressed.  But he refuses to go on any more meds as he's already blaming all the meds he takes for his heart condition on how crappy he feels.

So in February 2011 when I confronted him about what I think was a friendship leading up to the start of an emotional affair with a 24 yr old girl at his work.  I realized how depressed he was.  But everything just hit the fan and the fighting started in what has always been a really great marriage.  We usually don't fight.   

He ended up moving out temporarily to get some counselling and try and figure out what he was going to do.  Always maintaining that he thought he still loved me.  He moved into his mom's place and he's still there almost two years later.

So the biggest thing I want to know.  Is what he's going thru really MLC or is it clinical depression.  Is it possible to work thru the MLC tunnel if he refuses to go on meds?  He doesn't really seem to cycle or monster the way some people describe.  Since I'm almost at year two I'm trying to figure out where he's at in his MLC, if that is what he's having.  Or since his depression started so long ago is this really MLC?  I'm thinking that he might have just been depressed before he moved out in 2011.  But when I started pushing that he needed counselling and antidepressants is that what pushed him into MLC, when he started in denial.  I know he did say two years ago that he just wanted to run away, get into the truck and just drive and keep driving.   

I know some of you might say does it really matter?  And that by my trying to figure out what's going on I'm not detaching and letting go. 

But I just have these questions and since I do value everyone's opinion and I think all of you and this website are helping me.  I just really wanted to ask.   


RCR edited to change topic icon.

[Ready2Transform]

Just my opinion:  it sounds MLC to me, but I think the depression is woven into it.  My husband comes from a family full of depression, substance abuse, and outright insanity.  He was originally diagnosed with and treated for Bipolar Disorder and then downgraded to Generalized Anxiety, but ultimately went off of all of his antidepressent and antipsychotic meds cold turkey and has become somewhat of an alcoholic throughout his crisis.  He too suffered from ED issues (low testosterone can be the culprit, but the meds can too - there's a great audio link posted on kikki's latest thread that's an interview with John Gray that goes deeper into that). 

I think his suppression of these issues has lead to his crisis, but that the natural process of the "perfect storm" will balance him physically, emotionally, spiritually, and biochemically (if he allows it to).  When he was on meds, it helped slow down the super fast thoughts and kept him generally more content.  When he got talk therapy, it helped with the emotional issues.  When he meditates, he seems more spiritually sound.  But none of these things stopped his crisis, even when he was doing them in the prescribed way.  There are few of the reconnection stories here that involve any medication or therapy as the root of their healing, so I think it definitely does happen without them.

In my own MLC/MLT, I took a lot of supplements when I started returning to myself.  But I don't believe the supplements were the key - I didn't WANT to take them until I had a change in my thinking that once again cared about nurturing and healing myself.  I had to get to that point before I could make more positive choices - but that point did come.

[FindingJoJo]

That is the point ready2 isn't it.  Until anyone gets to the point of wanting to make positive choices nothing else they try will work until the pain if remaining where they are becomes so great they need the change.

[OldPilot]

MLC is more complicated than just clinical depression, IMHO.
It does get confusing because one thing about mental illness is DENIAL.

But I would say that the ingredients that go into MLC are hormonal depression(or some hormonal event, menopause, andropause, post partom, etc), childhood issues and some sort of trigger event.(Death, illness, empty nest, birth of child etc.).
Many times the depression is MASKED depression but other times it is OVERT(obvious) depression.
Midlife itself brings tremendous pressure to our bodies.
The weakest areas are attacked by our own bodies.
So those that are marginally depressed can become clinicially depressed.
I had bad knees as a teenager and now at older age that is being attacked.
You see cancer cropping up in many middle aged people.
All of these events are not a coincindence IMHO.
It is part of biology and life.

So those with clinical depression will have magnified results in midlife.
I have a cousin who is a in his mid fifties who had depression when he was younger.
I am watching him closely to see what happens to him and his marriage as he and his wife get older.
So far for them, so good.
So based on that I theorize that not all clinical depressions end in MLC.
But all MLC does have depression.
Same thing could be said for menopause.

I will think about this and see if I have any more to add to this later.

[kikki]

I would agree with that OP, absolutely

[Anjae]

Also agree with OP.

[Dreamer]

I have been reading a lot on depression. Does anyone know if MLC is a form of dep. would taking an anti depressant help the serotonin levels and be better for the spouse, or would the anti depressant keep them from working out their issues. Just curious.

[in it]

It's hard to say..when I was treated for what happened after I took Chantix they put me on lexapro and I felt really good. That may have been some depression but it was more like panic attacks but they didn't stop happening I was in a constant state of panic for two months.

People in depression lack direction and routine. And nothing interests them even trying to do something about it and denial can be a BIG part of it (especially in men)..read about covert depression they tend to hide it because it feels like they are "abnormal" and the ego steps in in the form of denial. That's when monster comes out because they get defensive.

Women may cry or at least reveal it more.

It can take a while for some meds to work and then a side effect might kick in and it gets discouraging. Then on the other hand it may work great and because it works so well someone thinks they are "cured" and go off them. Then the symptoms reoccur.

As weird as this may sound or (repeated) exercise and just ONE thing that someone can make themselves do even once week if possible.. to develop a routine will help.

IMHO people in this state need to try to socialize in a safe circle of people they trust if they have some. Maybe listen to someone elses's troubles can give their own some perspective.

[Anjae]

MLC is permeated with depression. You can read RCR articles on it. http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_depression.html

In a way MLC is more like Bipolar (or cyclothymic disorder, a milder form of Bipolar) than Depression. At least for Replayers because it has two poles, euphoria and depression.

As weird as this may sound or (repeated) exercise and just ONE thing that someone can make themselves do even once week if possible.. to develop a routine will help.

IMHO people in this state need to try to socialize in a safe circle of people they trust if they have some. Maybe listen to someone Else's troubles can give their own some perspective.

Your spot on, In it. Problem is it is almost impossible to have an MLCer socialize with a safe circle of people.

Regarding the meds, some here have MLCers who knew they were depressed, start taking meds, then just set them aside, often cold turkey. To some the anti-depressants were making them more agitated. A thing that seems to corroborate that MLC is more like Bipolar, therefore a mood stabilizer, like Lamotrigine, could be more appropriated.

But each person is a different case so, like In it said, hard to tell. We do not have bllod tests of brain tests of our MLCer to know what they are lacking (or having in excess).

You can read bout Bipolar here: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3872.0

Here about the Biochemestry of MLc and Infidelity: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3669.0

In Resources About MLC you will find articles ranging from depression to divorce and other MLC issues: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2297.0

Books discussion thread has several books on Depression and MLC:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=100.0 and http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1971.0

Hope this helps.

[OldPilot]

This topic has been discussed a few times before so I added it to some of the other discussions.

Also another depression topic that was archived might help

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=141.0