[Anjae]

I don’t know if you’ve read the all article but it has more on serotonin and also has a part about Norepinephrine. For this neurotransmitter it says, among other things:

“Norepinephrine: From Arousal to Panic
Norepinephrine (NE) is the neurotransmitter often associated with the “fight or flight” response to stress. Strongly linked to physical responses and reactions, it can increase heart rate and blood pressure as well as create a sense of panic and overwhelming fear/dread. This neurotransmitter is similar to adrenaline and is felt to set threshold levels to stimulation and arousal. Emotionally, anxiety and depression are related to norepinephrine levels in the brain, as this neurotransmitter seems to maintain the balance between agitation and depression.

Low levels of norepinephrine are associated with a loss of alertness, poor memory, and depression. Norepinephrine appears to be the neurotransmitter of “arousal” and for that reason, lower-than-normal levels of this neurotransmitter produce below-average levels of arousal and interest, a symptom found in several psychiatric conditions including depression and ADHD. It is for this reason that medications for depression and ADHD often target both dopamine and norepinephrine in an attempt to restore both to normal level.

Mild elevations in our norepinephrine levels produce heightened arousal, something known to be produced by stimulants. This arousal is considered pleasurable and several “street drugs” such as cocaine and amphetamines work by increasing the brains level of norepinephrine. This increased sense of arousal is pleasurable, linking these substances to their potential for addiction. Research tells us that some individuals using antidepressants develop a state of “hypomania” or emotional elation and physical arousal in this same manner. For that reason, individuals using modern antidepressants are often cautioned to notify their treating physician/psychiatrist if they become “too happy”.

Moderately high levels of norepinephrine create a sense of arousal that becomes uncomfortable. Remembering that this neurotransmitter is strongly involved in creating physical reactions, moderate increases create worry, anxiety, increased startle reflex, jumpiness, fears of crowds & tight places, impaired concentration, restless sleep, and physical changes. The physical symptoms may include rapid fatigue, muscle tension/cramps, irritability, and a sense of being on edge. Almost all anxiety disorders involve norepinephrine elevations.”


We’re dealing with spouses that are a total chemical/hormonal mess (add to all these possible problems in low/high testorenone/estrogen) and it becomes really scary.

Ready2 30 supplements per day? That is a lot. I think I don’t want to know how many may husband would need after he hit rock bottom… I think

l they have burned out all the chemical fuel  they will keep running. The totally messed up chemicals are I think, the reason why in Replay they are unable to solve any issues. Was thinking if this chemical vision of depression/MLC would contradict what I have wrote on Kikki’s previous thread Positive changes http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2443.0  about the soul/self/shadow/integration/rebirth. I don’t think so. Their soul is very damaged, trapped under all the chemical mess. The more extreme and damaging for their emotional and physical health their behaviour the worst for their soul and bodies (I think this chemical madness along with the lifestyle creates the physical decay and ruin and upsets and amazes me so much). I think one can say that the Shadow is their chemical imbalanced version, their dark twisted side. And it will only go away when they are no longer capable getting their”fix”, when they can no longer achieve a high, no matter what they do or try. Then, rock bottom and overt depression are the only things left. From then on, slowly, they may start to rebuil, reintegrate and rebirth.

JoJo, yes, it is lovely when they project. Not!  Oh, I see, your husband has found the fountain of youth, or a time travelling machine, and managed to made himself young…  and he is very sorry he is not able to share those miracles with you and made you young… MLCers… Of course you were mean, we all were. This board is full of mean, horrible spouses… 

[kikki]

Well - can't believe myself.  I printed your fantastic article out yesterday AnneJ, and had it sitting on the kitchen bench as I was reading it again over my morning coffee.  Left it sitting out.
My H just arrived, unannounced - he hasn't done this in a while.  S16 and I were the only ones home, and we felt a bit peeved, but he apparently came to try to fix S17's car. (This man is no mechanic, but I appreciated him taking responsibility for it though.  A change.)

Anyway - he saw the article sitting on the bench and actually asked about it.  The words just came out of my mouth 'I printed it out thinking you might be interested in the information for your brother (who they all think is either an undiagnosed schizophrenic, or bipolar??).  It explains all of the new information coming out now about neurotransmitters in the brain, and has a great analogy about them being similar to fluid levels in a vehicle.  Too much or too little and it causes problems.'  He said 'oh he wouldn't be interested in anything like this, but I would be, because we seem to have a family history of this stuff!'.

Well - bowl me over with a feather.  28mths post BD and the man wants to read about his brain.  Don't worry - I won't be holding my breath or anything.  Will be interesting to hear whether he mentions it again or not???

[Thundarr]

Anne, I agree with every bit of that article and have always maintained there HAS to be a biological component to this.  Very intriguing is the notion that childhood issues only are seen as part of this BECAUSE of the depression and that they are not the cause of it.  Also, the tone of voice my W used early on when she brought up all the bad things I had done was very surreal.  She spoke of things from 20 years ago with the clarity and insistense as if they had happened yesterday, and even I had to stop and get my bearings before realizing they were two decades ago.  When I would point that out to her she would only look at me in a confused way and say that she didn't forgive easily, which made no sense given that she had not brought them up in over 20 years.  I told myself that she must have met someone and was justifying her actions, but logically meeting someone would not contribute to someone's memory becoming so incredibly sharp and detailed about negative things. If anything, the euphoria of a new love would cause someone to look at the world in a better way and remember fewer negatives.  I believe this article explains many things the best I have seen it yet.  Unfortunately, the knowledge does nothing to make my situation any better although it does help me to have less anger toward my W.

[Ready2Transform]

WOW kikki!!  Talk about divine intervention!!  No expectations, but prayers going out that it helps close the gap for you guys.  You deserve a breakthrough with him, and this would be at the least a wonderful place for dialog to start.

Thundarr, my experience with my H has been the same.  Biggest problem happened 13 years ago that he's thrown in my face, and this article is helping me reconcile that.  I also remember being very angry at my father for things at least a decade old at the height of my crisis.

[Dontgiveup]

From RCR's article on Liminality
This is not the disease of Clinical Depression; rather it is a dis-ease manifested as grief; the MLCer falls to rock bottom, the home of the Shadow. This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm's ledge and try not to fall. The depression gets deeper with the Liminality phase when the old Self dies to create a new Self--Ego-Death. The MLCer has no Self; he is suspended in nothingness.

[kikki]

Divine Intervention all right Ready2 
Will be most interesting to see whether he takes it on board, or burns the article  .
It would be great if he did think about it - he obviously is starting to put two and two together.  He would have to be fed up with feeling this way by now - surely!

Thundarr - I was hoping you'd come across this thread. Always interested in your point of view. 

Very intriguing is the notion that childhood issues only are seen as part of this BECAUSE of the depression and that they are not the cause of it.

It is very intriguing.  I have always believed there to be a biological component to this, but I do also believe it is a cocktail of other things too.  I don't think you get the crisis without the 'perfect storm' of components. 

[Anjae]

That is amazing, Kikki! Maybe your husband may realise his state has something to do with Too little or too much fluids in his brain.

I also found the analogy between car and brain fluids to be great, It makes it very easy to understand. d has a great analogy about them being similar to fluid levels in a vehicle. 

Thundarr, to me it makes much more sense than biological chemical/hormonal are a component, and I think a major one, of MLC than childhood issues to be the main component/reason of the crisis.

It makes sense that the childhood issues arise when the depression sets in. Those and many other issues. Agree with you, meeting someone does not contribute to have negative situations becoming so sharp. Like Kikki I think the crisis is a conjugation of factors. But the biological component sharpens or turns more acute any other issues.

Exactly, if anything the enthusiasm of a new love would make someone see everything pink and bright. And that is not what happens. They may find OW/OM fantastic but all their past was a disaster. At all their past was a disaster even to those, like my cousin, who never had OW.

Sadly, no, the article does nothing to make our situations any better. But may allow us a further understanding of MLC.


DGU but before Liminal depression there is already depression. The whole crisis is filled with depression. They are already depressed before BD. My husband, like many other MLCers, had said, several times before he left, that he was depressed. The doctor on his company confirmed he was depressed. Clinical and chronic depression are the more acute forms of depression. Those, like all other types, have several levels of intensity. I’m not so certain MLC is di-sease rather than disease…

If we are dealing with depression, of whatever type/intensity, we are dealing with a health matter.

I still don’t think it changes the Shadow idea/thought. According to Jung:

“The Shadow
The shadow is an unconscious complex that is defined as the repressed and suppressed aspects of the conscious self.
There are constructive and destructive types of shadow.

On the destructive side, it often represents everything that the conscious person does not wish to acknowledge within themselves. For instance, someone who identifies as being kind has a shadow that is harsh or unkind. Conversely, an individual who is brutal has a kind shadow. The shadow of persons who are convinced that they are ugly appears to be beautiful.

On the constructive side, the shadow may represent hidden positive influences. This has been referred to as "the gold in the shadow". Jung points to the story of Moses and Al-Khidr in the 18th Book of the Koran as an example.
Jung emphasized the importance of being aware of shadow material and incorporating it into conscious awareness, lest one project these attributes on others.
The shadow in dreams is often represented by dark figures of the same gender as the dreamer.

According to Jung the human being deals with the reality of the Shadow in four ways: denial, projection, integration and/or transmutation.”

And, also according to him:

“Individuation
Jung introduced the concept of individuation. This brief summary is based on a chapter by Henri Ellenberger in the book "The Discovery of the Unconscious."
While important to many people, the concept of individuation takes on a deep meaning for adults at midlife—a time at which life’s meaning and purpose come to the fore. In writing about Jung, Ellenberger described midlife or Lebenswende as representing a profound change, gradual or sudden—that can manifest from "long-repressed intellectual or spiritual needs".  This change may be seen as a gift from the unconscious—a warning to take full advantage and not waste this precious second half of life.

The process of individuating can take a lifetime. It consists of a series of metamorphoses (the death/rebirth cycle), such as birth/infancy, puberty, adulthood, and midlife. If one can individuate at midlife, the ego is no longer at the center, and the individual makes some sort of peace with her/his mortality.”

I admire and like Jung works a lot but we need to keep in mind that he was theoretical psychologist. He was also a practising psychiatrist but he died in 1961. Since then major progress has been done in the study of the brain. We now have access to PET scans, MRIs and other things. And the more and more psychiatry is picking things from neurology, including medicines (what has improved my cousin condition was a medicine my friend, the psychiatrist, gave him that before was only used in neurology).

We also have to have in mind that many times psychiatrists/psychoanalysts/ psychologists/therapist just look and listen to people, they do not request blood, brain and other tests. So, essentially, they are diagnosing things without knowing how the brain chemicals, hormonal levels, thyroid levels and others are. They tell this is this and it is because of this but, in many cases, do not choose to see if there is any biological cause for the situation they have before them.

RCR, if you are reading this thread, and what I’ve posted in DGU It’s in the Articles, I would like to know what is your though on this.

[Dontgiveup]

Thundarr, to me it makes much more sense than biological chemical/hormonal are a component, and I think a major one, of MLC than childhood issues to be the main component/reason of the crisis.

Here is part of what was posted on my thread...."Your Emotional Hurt Can Seriously Alter Your Brain Chemistry".  This seems to indicate, at least from this author, that the emotional issues may cause the chemical issues in the brain.

It makes sense that the childhood issues arise when the depression sets in.

See above
 
DGU but before Liminal depression there is already depression. The whole crisis is filled with depression.

So why do we need the term MLC?  Why don't we just call it depression?

I’m not so certain MLC is di-sease rather than disease…If we are dealing with depression, of whatever type/intensity, we are dealing with a health matter.

If true, then MLC should be treatable at any stage

Since then major progress has been done in the study of the brain.

Again, the information at the beginning of this post seems to indicate emotional hurt can affect brain chemistry.

[kikki]

This is not the disease of Clinical Depression; rather it is a dis-ease manifested as grief; the MLCer falls to rock bottom, the home of the Shadow. This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm's ledge and try not to fall. The depression gets deeper with the Liminality phase when the old Self dies to create a new Self--Ego-Death. The MLCer has no Self; he is suspended in nothingness.

Not the disease of clinical depression, rather dis-ease manifested as grief?  I also believe clinical depression (covert and overt) shows throughout the whole of the crisis.
RCR may have written this prior to knowledge of the research now showing from scans, that we are now benefitting from?
I believe it is MLC and not JUST depression, because it is a jigsaw puzzle of biological factors (neurotransmitters, hormones), developmental factors, spiritual factors, personality style (avoidant), and therefore lack of coping mechanisms during stressful times of your life when responsibilities are many and your body is wearing down and feeling tired.

[Dontgiveup]

I am still curious for feedback as to why MLC is not treatable if the information about biological components/depression is the root cause instead of emotional/developmental issues.