[kikki]

Personally, from everything that I have read so far, I believe it is both the disease of clinical depression plus dis-ease due to the culmination of other mid life factors (as described here on the forum).

Mid life depression has often been called the 'Mother of all depressions'.

Midlifers do not wish to seek help, as they are experiencing an enormous pull to run away and abandon their former lives and responsibilities. 
To be able to treat them medically, we would have to have laws written, that gave permission to put them in straight jackets and take them away for treatment against their will, should they be displaying a certain number of symptoms.  As they are so adept at their public masks and their private MLC selves, who could legally decide that they were displaying those signs and symptoms?  The family couldn't do it.  They put their mask on for medical, psychiatric, psychological professionals.
I have witnessed this myself.

Even if the MLCer was force fed treatment for the clinical depression component, I believe they still need to work through the other mid life factors.  Support and understanding of what is required would be helpful, but not likely to be taken on board even if offered, given the fact that they all pretty much deny that there is anything wrong with them in the first place, because their thinking is so skewed during this time. 

[Anjae]

DGU, there are two titles and two similar articles from the same author. I’ve posted parts of both on your thread and one here. The essence of both articles is the same, the chemical imbalance and the problems in the neurotransmitter cause depression.


One of the articles can be read here: (the one in your thread) and the one in this thread here:
They have different beginning and are address in slightly different ways. The first one is aimed at families of people with borderline personality disorder and called “Stop Being Tortured by Your Own Thoughts http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a112.htm, the second one is, from what I get, an academic paper “The “Chemical Imbalance” in Mental Health Problems http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html (the oen posted on this thread. The first one is focused in a more specific type of mental problem, the second one deals with chemical imbalances overall. The beginning is different but most of the main points addressed are the same.

Of course an emotional hurt can harm the brain and its chemicals. It is a hurt, it triggers neurological responses that can imbalance the normal levels of brain chemical. The same is true for a euphoric reaction, a rush of adrenaline and many other things. The contrary is also true, chemical imbalance can affect emotional response and perception.

The fact that an emotional hurt/pain is real is the reason why I have many times said here on the board, in different threads, that hurt must not be minimized (usually when saying that I’m referring to the pain of the LBS) because it is real, it is felt by the brain. It is not an imaginary thing that we can ignore and overcome from night to day. It takes time, we need to adjust. 

However, emotional hurt/pain alone do not cause the crisis. Otherwise all LBS would have had a MLC post BD. And that did not happened. And, of course, our spouses had felt emotional hurt before. We do not have any way of knowing what caused it for our spouses. If it was emotional hurt that caused the chemical brain imbalance or if their brains were chemical imbalanced and that caused emotional distress.

Kikki, in the end of the second article (the one on this thread) reads “This article is presented as a public service by Joseph M. Carver, Ph.D., a Clinical Psychologist. Revised: January 2002”. I thing this type of research has been around for a while but I think it used to be more addressed at neurologists.

We tend to see depression had a psychiatric problem, nor a neurological one. And those two areas of medicine, traditionally, were not the best friends on earth. But more and more psychiatrists are learning and taking from neurology. Not enough, if you ask me.

DGU, Not all depressions are treatable in the sense of solvable. Chronic depression has no cure. One can only mitigate it. But, yes, I think that if there was a way of taking our MLCers to a good neurologist or psychiatrist, ones that would be up to do all those needed tests, the crisis could be, if not totally treated, at least mitigated or alleviated. Of course our MLCers would have to take the medication and many psychiatric patients,  suffering from all sorts of psychiatric conditions do not. For instance, many Schizophrenics tend to avoid medication because they say “it calms them down” and leaves them slow. Normally what happens is that the medication levels them but they found being balanced/normal wrong and try to skip the medicines. Needless to say without the medicines they end up a total mess.

MLC can be one other type of depression. There are many types, why not having MLC has a new/other type? It obviously is not classical clinical depression. Perhaps, in a way, it is the mother of all clinical depressions?...

This Kikki I would say is very much it : “a jigsaw puzzle of biological factors (neurotransmitters, hormones), developmental factors, spiritual factors, personality style (avoidant), and therefore lack of coping mechanisms during stressful times of your life when responsibilities are many and your body is wearing down and feeling tired.”

Also, I think we can see MLC in, at leas, two ways:

1)   what Kikki said, that is, biological, emotional and other factors
2)   an emotional issue that need to be overcome

I still think the chemical/hormonal factors do not invalidate the Shadow. We are dealing with the Shadow, with all the garbage and the darkest of the dark side. The light was cut off, only the darkness exist. Or put another way, the brain fluids are all too short or too high, there is nothing but a blur and despair.

Reintegration and Rebirth are also not compromised by the chemical/hormonal factors. Anyone who has been depressed needs reintegration and will have a Rebirth.

And, the soul, of course, is totally broken. The soul is not the brain in itself, it is a more metaphysical thing. At least in my view.

So, will we be able to treat MLC? I doubt. When they BD us they are already too far out of their heads and they need to run until they totally burn out. Of course we can try and use a rifle with a tranquiliser dart, shoot them with it, tie them to a bed and have them tested, scanned, probed and force feed medicines.  Not sure if we manage to do that… 

[Anjae]

I am still curious for feedback as to why MLC is not treatable if the information about biological components/depression is the root cause instead of emotional/developmental issues.

Because they've run and since they've run were not able to have them treated. They see nothing wrong with them, why would they treat themselves?

It is on the article, the imbalance makes them want to run.

And, before they run, did we knew what they have? I think we did not. And even those who knew they were unwell, like myself, and tried to have husbadn treated, got no luck. Husband refused the treatment.

Now, how could we treat them? One of the things some hospitals and psychiatrics do, to have Schizophrenics out of meds is to give them a monthly shot. Usually they start giving the shot when the Schizophrenic has a seizure, therefore requiring being taken to hospital emergency, and keep on from then. If a Schizophrenic never misses a monthy shot they never go down and never start having the mad thoughts they do otherwise.

If we could do the same to our MLCers I think we would have it solved. Or at least mitigated. But how are we going to stop them before BD (many of us have no clue about what is going on) ot after BD? And, as far as I know, medicines to depression are pills. They can stop take the pills.

Plus, it would require that all health professionals would be aware of what is happening with our spouse. We already know that most of them don’t have a clue.

DGU, how do you treat a person that does not want to be treated? Take Mermaid's husband. He knows he is depressed, he is doctor. He does not treat himself. He does nothing to improve his own depression.

[Dontgiveup]

However, emotional hurt/pain alone do not cause the crisis. Otherwise all LBS would have had a MLC post BD.

I should clarify that I believe it's emotional development issues at an earlier age......not emotional hurt and pain.  I agree that we all experience emotional hurt and pain.  The lack of development has affected the coping skills of the MLCer.  The coping skills of the LBS are certainly put to the test, but thankfully....at least for most of us.....coping skills are there.

[Dontgiveup]

If we could do the same to our MLCers I think we would have it solved. Or at least mitigated.

Thank you for your response.  If I'm reading correctly, you believe MLC would be treatable if the MLCer would allow it.

Since I believe MLC is a development issue, I believe it must be gone through.

Interesting stuff, and I am certainly not a scientist.

[Anjae]

You’re welcome. Yes, treatable in the same way as a severe depression. That is, it would have to be a slow, gradual and very well done treatment. Most “normal” depressions are not well treated. Both doctors and patients tend to want fast results. Never a good idea with these delicate issues.

And, of course, the treatment in the case of MLC could not be just medicines. No point in using them if the person was going to go back to the same things and ways of being. So, in a way, it would have to be a MLC, with the growing and development, but without the destruction. Really more a mitigate of the crisis than a “cure”. Even because the medicines on their own do not automatically solve a depression. They give a big help but more than that  is required.

I do not disagree that emotional development issues at an earlier age can be a factor. But not the only one. For instances, my husband had to put to use is coping skills a few times before the crisis and he managed it. For some reason this time it was all too much and crisis come to be.

Very interesting stuff indeed. I have another appointment for my cousin, with the psychiatrist, in a month and I have previously agreed with the doctor that I will have some time to make questions about husband, MLC, chemical brain imbalanced, emotional development issues, coping skills, etc.

I’ve been having several talks with that friend (the psychiatrist) of mine about this issues, following his work with his patients (they suffer from several conditions, from mild depression to heavy schizophrenia, passing by bipolarity, borderline and any other existent psychiatric disorder), and learning a lot about this stuff. Fascinating but also frightening. Our mind can be destroyed with very little and, under certain circumstances, it can happen to any one of us.

[Sassyone]

Depression is a component of the MLC.  So the depression part can be treated, and aside from anti-depressants, talk therapy to go through the issues is a must.  The part that is hard is to get an MLC'er to get the therapy and ADs.  I am convinced that my H's replay was far shorter than most because he placated me and when to therapy and his psych dr. for meds. 

He was a typical MLCer in that he lied to the therapist and MC until almost two months after he started taking ADs (tried 2 different types) when then meds finally clicked in.  He has told me that at that point he knew something was wrong with him and could finally allow certain things to seep in for him to process.  He also told me it wasn't until the psych, therapist and MC told him he was depressed that he believed it.  Once he allowed himself to believe that there was a psychological and physical cause of why he was feeling like he was, he allowed himself to move forward and out of replay. 

We talked a lot this weekend about depression and replay.  He told me it was a stimulant that he was constantly looking for like a high of sorts.  He also said it didn't matter if it was a good stimulant (i.e. sex, ow) or bad stimulant (fights with OW, me, the kids), he needed the adrenaline high.  It really made me see why the monstering part was so volatile . . . he needed his fix.  He also explained how when he knew the ADs were working and his brain would clear and he could think. 

I am a firm believer that depression is also a life long disease that needs to be managed.  Once you have a clinical depression, you are more likely to have recurring bouts.

Hugs,

Sassy

[WarriorSprit]

Depression is hard for me to talk about but here goes some of what my life has been like with a w that is depressed. Our kids don't think she loves them. She holds her love an uses it as power over us. She took meds for 15 years. She quit taking them on her own 6 years ago. She now says the meds and doctors caused her depression. She is severly depressed now. This is what caused her MLC and she completely thinks there is nothing wrong with her. I brought up depression a few months ago to plant a seed. I said I know a friend at work his wife was feeling down and she talked to somebody and got better. I then changed the subject. W went back to it angry saying talking to people leads to other things. I think she meant this is how her affair started. This is almost impossible to talk about as they don't want to think there is anything wrong with them. This is the battle. God bless you all.

[LoveMeMyself]

SassyOne or anybody who has any thoughts.

My exH is on antidepressants and has been now for a long time.  His demeanor has changed; he is calmer, seems more like himself, etc.  He continues to state things such as the "I can't undo what's been done, or I can't un-ring the bell".  Just to give a little history: my exH was already taking medicine for social anxiety and visiting a therapists prior to BD.  Directly after BD his moods, cycles, monster, etc. were off the charts!  He continued with the same therapist but medications were given in increased amounts.  I started noticing memory issues with my exH along with some very deep darkness.  Then 21 months after BD he had a failed suicide attempt...........overdosed.  This was to me a blessing in disguise as it got him straightened out with better doctors and more regulated medicine.  He was such a different man.........like the man I married.  Well, just a few months ago (April) he had another severe bout of depression and went back to his doctor.  He was put back on antidepressants.  He had stopped taking them earlier because he said he felt better and thought he could cope.  We have very limited contact.  I try not to initiate and wait for him.  He had gotten to a point where he would contact me about every two or three weeks.  Last contact I had was a week ago but I had to initiate as I had an issue with our joint vacation property.  We got into a relationship conversation which I regret but can't "undo what's been done".  I haven't heard anything from him since. 

So, I'm questioning the fact that my exH is on medication for the depression and under a doctor's care (therapy) but I don't see any possibilities of his return to me or any movement forward regarding our relationship.  It's looking more to me like he's convinced all his actions were "depression" based.  So, why should I think or hope for him to come through the tunnel and want to return?  Does being treated for depression make it easier for them to accept that's all this is.......and not MLC?

[Sassyone]

LoveMyMan:

Every situation is different and I personally believe the more problems they have stemming from their childhood the longer the bout will be.  Remember depression is just a part of the MLC.  You can't just take a pill and it will go away.  My H is still in MLC and acknowledges it as such.  (Very unusual and he did not do so at first.)  However, he does take his ADs and continues with MC and IC regularly.  His psych told him that once he feels 100% better (he isn't there yet) he will still be on his meds for a whole year afterwards.  So the meds help his chemical imbalance, the therapy (once he was honest and open most MLC'ers are not when in replay) helps him tackle his FOO issues.  Both therapy and medication must be consistent.  On and off meds can cause havoc with the MLC'er.

So since you have, I am assuming, no idea if he is being consistent with his meds or therapy (and if he is truthful in therapy) it is hard to say. 

"I can't undo what's been done, or I can't un-ring the bell". 

  This is a typical MLC'er statement.  While it is true that you can't go back in time, you can move forward and forgive.  I always found that answering and acknowledging that in a truthful manner was food for thought when H was monstery or said that.  I would just agree and say, we all make mistakes, some bigger than others, you are going through something, I am here for you and want to help you when you are ready. 

Any way you slice it . . . this is a very long journey, each of our sitchs are similar yet different.  For my H, meds helped and therapy helped and is helping but he had to be willing and he really wasn't at first.  The first set of ADs he was on did not work and honestly the only reason he tired another was at my persistence because of some sexual side effects (which coincidentally he still has, but not to the same degree as on the previous med.)  He also has low/normal testosterone which he is finding a lot harder to have a doctor treat him for it.  So personally I feel there are a lot of components in MLC, some physical, emotional, mental, etc., that form the perfect storm in our MLC'ers.

Hugs,

Sassy