[justasking]

eCe711

That is very interesting regarding drug addicts and alcoholics as I have heard councillors refer rock bottom for MLC along the same lines. In this case it would be more a thought rather than a situation where there is no money, no hope etc.

[trusting]

T&L - my guess is maybe your H has come close or hit rock bottom and is fighting it and not willing/ready to make the changes, thus continuing the behaviors and the MLC.  Just a wild guess.

[ece711]

If I may add something regarding Rock Bottom...  and this is not to discourage anyone here, but any events that occurs in their life, no matter how bad it is... such as probably death can even get them to ROCK BOTTOM.  They will get there when they get there.  It is how well grounded they were that would take them to ROCK BOTTOM.  On the other hand it could be as simple as hearing a song on the radio, or attending a family function that will make them hit ROCK BOTTOM.

So for us LBS we really have to just let go... as they said before "ACTIONS" not "WORDS".  You will notice it...  They have to catch up with us. 

[Rollercoasterider]

Buggy has got it. But I found OldPilot's answer interesting.

My guess is that the depression stage is a reaction to hitting rock bottom, which occurs at the end of replay.
What outwardly we see in depression stage looks like rock bottom but I believe it is the MLC'ers way of navigating out of the tunnel and up and out of the rock bottom.

And what ECE711 said may help shed some light on that.

based on some alcoholics, and or drug addicts which I have spoken to, even the ones that were in and out of rehab, for them their description of hitting rock bottom is more like when they say to themselves "what am I doing to myself?", or "what have I done to myself?", "I've got to do something about this addiction!". (sort of like "realization").

There will come a time when your MLCer becomes aware of what he or she is doing and/or has done.

 

• They are bankrupt and expecting a child with the alienator,
• Their kids hate them and their spouse...hate, loves, begs and pleads...depends on the spouse.
• Their parents are disgusted and ashamed
• Their long-time friends no longer in contact and probably embarrassed.
• They lost their job and then the next two jobs that replaced the original.
• They have no home, maybe a one-room flat, maybe someone's couch.
• Without a Standing spouse their may be someone new living their life with their LBS and raising their children.
• Their liver is shot
• The alienator is stalking them, calling incessantly, threatening suicide, exposure...

That is not rock bottom; it is only the initial realization of what they have done and become. They hit rock bottom as that realization washes through them, penetrating every fiber of their being. They feel the consequences as well as the pain they brought others and they think they have caused too much damage.

That is a common phrase I've caused to much damage and thus is becomes dilute with overuse, but at Rock Bottom just before Rock Bottom they believe it. Rock Bottom is where they make the decision to change. They've tried before, but they were banking on the excuse of having tried--trying presupposes failure--to allow them to fail. Now they are not going to try but are going to do. They don't know what they will do; they don't know what options are open to them--spouse, kids, friends... But they are going to act within their available options to make things better because they can stay at the bottom or go up, there is no other palce to go...though don't tell them, but it is possible to drill deeper. At Rock Bottom they don't know what to do and thus there is a stagnant period where they are stuck in their hopelessness. But at the same time they desperately want a solution. They are the molted crab without a new shell.

I went through my manuscript to find my references to Rock Bottom and then googled my site since the manuscript doesn't give web page addresses.

Here are the pages that reference Rock Bottom
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html
TrustAndLove's paraphrase came from this one:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_doubt-and-confusion.html
 
That article is directly followed by another in the series referencing Rock Bottom:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_limbo.html

[HeartsBlessing]

As a general rule the MLC'er hits bottom during the TRUE Depression stage....I saw my husband do this ONCE; he was within the TRUE Depression stage, sometime during the stage itself; it wasn't early in, he'd been in there for some time before I saw him do this.

He didn't take a bath for around three days, and his hair was sticking up in every direction, and he'd neglected shaving AND brushing his teeth..quite unusual for him, as he is such a stickler for physical appearance.....what seemed to complicate matters was the fact that my son and I were BOTH very sick, and he was running back and forth between us, trying to take care of us...and this was something I'd NEVER seen out of him before.

He looked a little crazy, and on the verge of tears...and he was shaky on his feet.  My throat was SO sore, I could barely speak, but asked him if he was all right, and he said "No, but I will be.  Can I get you something else to drink?"

My fever and son's fever ran high, then broke...he was putting cold washcloths on us both and giving us tylenol to try and break the fever.

Some would say us being sick was what drove him crazy...but that really wasn't it..just before me and son succumbed to being sick, I was already seeing the signs of him beginning to bottom out...he was running from it...but when we got sick, it caught up with him, and I think it was supposed to...we distracted him, and allowed it to catch up with him....otherwise, he would have fought it off and probably been stuck that way.

He stayed bottomed out for those three days, and slowly but surely began to climb out of the pit after the third day...I saw pure relief on his face, and he started the signs of thinking deeply...still fighting the tears that threatened to fall...and there was nothing I could do to help him.

I wish I knew more of what he was seeing during that time, but it was not for me to see...and I don't remember what I saw when it happened to me....some things I remember, some I don't, and this is one of those times I don't remember about myself.


What I do know comes from experience:

All Replay behaviors are totally behind them, they have moved forward into Depression... and they are in the throes of very deep depression when they bottom out, emotionally.

The physical signs are neglect of their personal hygiene, tears that threaten to fall, or do fall...they are shaky on their feet.....you may hear them beating themselves to pieces over how they are...but, remember, they've been shown a small part of the damage they've done...and that is really hard on them.

This IS after, all, the deepest pit in MLC...and it's really hard on them...but if they don't bottom out, seeing themselves for what they really are, they can get stuck here between Replay and Depression...cycling backwards into Replay for a time, then cycle back into Depression.

I haven't seen the latter much..but TAL's husband may be in that area...and honestly, I'm not sure what you do when they cycle like that.....Boundaries wouldn't exactly work because even if you could force them back out of Replay...they may cycle right back into this stage if they can't face themselves in Depression, if that makes sense.

Then, again, when one thing doesn't work, try another...do something different in order to maybe bring them forward within the tunnel.   Don't give up, keep trying until something breaks or they leave permanently ON THEIR OWN WITH NO HELP FROM YOU.

Yet, they MUST face themselves, in order to move forward...if my husband hadn't been able to face himself during that time...he could NOT have moved forward into Withdrawal....now, what made him bounce backwards into Withdrawal was his FINAL FEARS that he was unable to face..so he bounced backwards, in effect, getting STUCK in that stage, because he did NOT want to face his issues, which were contained within his final fears....so, I was called upon to confront him...and even then, I took a chance on losing him, by the boundaries I set upon his behavior.

On what exactly that you do to break this type of cycle, I would have to pray for an answer, as I don't have one....and I know, that's not like me NOT to have one..but I've never seen this but a couple of times...and the person going through was STILL cycling back and forth when I dropped out of circulation.

This is different than cycling between OW and LBS....OW Withdrawal, if there's been an affair has also been navigated through....and when the MLC'er reaches Depression, everything should be finished in regards to Replay...but the door to Replay may NOT be locked...remember coming through or NOT coming depends upon the MLC'er..and that is what makes this crisis so hard to understand and survive.

Hopefully SOME of this will help. 

Like I said, I NEVER said I had ALL the answers...but I will see what the Lord gives me on this...or if He gives some of you answers for what I cannot answer, please let ME know. 

RCR, I see your answer, and it is a very good one. 

[Trustandlove]

On what exactly that you do to break this type of cycle, I would have to pray for an answer, as I don't have one....and I know, that's not like me NOT to have one.

RCR, if you do pray, and do come up with something, I'd love to hear it.....

I've already figured out that boundaries have no place here; I'm trying to think of what I could do that is different....    so not doing anything particular right now.....

[watching and waiting]

http://www.articlesbase.com/religion-articles/hitting-rock-bottom-147662.html

The above is  what i have been reading to research Rock bottom.  I am not sure if I am supposed to post links to other sites.  (If not sorry RCR)

I have found them useful, along with RCR information on Liminality.

Hope they are useful.
HUGS

[Trustandlove]

uote
On what exactly that you do to break this type of cycle, I would have to pray for an answer, as I don't have one....and I know, that's not like me NOT to have one.

RCR, if you do pray, and do come up with something, I'd love to hear it.....

I meant HB, of course, as my quote was from her post, rather than RCR....   sorry!

[trusting]

I just wanted to add that it took awhile even after I thought my H had rock bottom before he did much to try to make any positive changes.  Honestly, for awhile I don't think he had the energy.  He was very depressed.  And now, almost eight months later, his positive changes are still slow, slow, slow but they are definitely there.  MLC just takes a long, long time.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

To RCR and HB, what incredible posts and great information. The drug addict analogy also comes into play. I am a newbie in all of this, but I have tried to read as many stories as well as posts to look at commonalities. If I were to approach this from a quantitative approach, I would code key phrases and see how often they occur throughout the different posts. (I am not doing that, I don't have the time nor the permission to do so).

If I have been reading the post correctly, most of our MLCers see their actions as beyond their control. (Love at first sight, my soul mate, etc...) They make decisions and actions based on reactions towards others (I have to leave because you did this, or the environment is not right). They use emotion and feelings to validate their actions.


I think that rock bottom occurs when they realize that everything is a mess and it was within their control to have prevented it.  HB is right, we can't save them. They must save themselves. Otherwise, the responsibility and acceptance of consequences never occurs and we, the LBS bails them out once again.

This is just my observations from reading your posts. I have little experience with this since my w is still in replay.