[justasking]

HB

Is it possible that although not physically gone the OW/OM is emotionally gone and the relationship changes as the MLCer progresses along the tunnel by them distancing and detaching themselves at the end of replay?

[HeartsBlessing]

Is it possible that although not physically gone the OW/OM is emotionally gone and the relationship changes as the MLCer progresses along the tunnel by them distancing and detaching themselves at the end of replay?

The answer is yes, it can happen that way and in that fashion.  What you're asking is can the OW/OM break it off, using this procedure, just as well as the MLC'er can by doing the SAME thing...it has been known to happen that way; bringing on the awakening process within the MLC'er, as well as literally forcing the MLC'er into the OW/OM Withdrawal process.

[HeartsBlessing]

Something else I must say; so bear with me, here.

There was an answer I was praying for, in regards to the timing of when the MLC'er may decide their lives must go a different direction, and I was surprised by the answer I got, but it made a great deal of sense to me.

The Lord showed me at least three points in the tunnel where the MLC'er can decide that their lives go another direction.

The first point is just as the "awakening" occurs; the OW/OM is still within the picture; and the MLC'er CAN decide to just go on with them, as they "love" them; and it seems to be much easier to keep what they have currently, than to come back.
OR they can go on and dump them, and walk away from the LBS; this is a decision they can make.

The second point, is during Depression, as part of the damage is shown; they can decide at any time to just walk away and not come back....they may feel the damage cannot be fixed, no matter what they do; evidence of depression within.

The third point is during Withdrawal, when MORE of the damage done is shown.  They are hit harder than they were during Depression; they may decide to cut their losses, and simply walk away.

Easier to run away than to face all they've done, and to face the one they've done it to, is too much.  But it does NOT mean they won't come on through...it simply means they may take longer to process through.  In all three points, the love the MLC'er once had for the LBS is most likely gone or buried too deep to resurrect.

In each case the LBS may or may NOT be told....this is an individual decision, and regardless of how much the LBS would feel entitled to know; they may NOT get a chance to influence the MLC'er to change their minds.

I mean, it may go as far as the MLC'er telling the LBS to leave them alone, they are done with them, and they would actually MEAN what they were saying...and it can come at any of these three points, BEFORE the marriage is recommitted to.

Now, the fact that some commit adultery doesn't make what they may end up doing right, and the MLC'er will STILL suffer consequences for their actions toward their marriage; but it is what it is.

That is why the LBS must accept ALL possibilities of how this may come out, as what I saw CAN happen this way.

Tell you something else; I was reminded of when my husband said he'd thought THREE times of leaving, but the third time he'd had to look ahead and see what life would be like without me, and he couldn't stand the thought.

OK; the Lord showed me these three points..the exact places where my HUSBAND stood as he faced this decision three times.  I asked Him if there was a variation; He said not by much.

As my husband faced his awakening, and faced that crossroad the first time, he realized that he didn't love the OW, he loved ME; but was unsure what he could do about the damage that had occurred, although intellectually, he knew, the emotional hit hadn't come, just yet.  Now, the Lord had instructed me to lay off him during that time, and I didn't; because of my disobedience, I ALMOST caused his walk away that first time, and didn't even know it until now.
If it had not been for the Lord; my husband would have walked away that first time he faced that decision to stay or go.

The second time came while within the stage of  Depression, as he bottomed out, or hit rock bottom..the damage he was shown at that time seemed too great to overcome; and he thought about it again, but didn't do it...it was too scary to see beyond the thought.

The third time was his second time in the stage of Withdrawal after I laid my boundaries and triggered his tantrum,; he was angry with me because I wasn't doing what he wanted me to do;(which was throw him out, so he could blame me) and he thought of walking away and never coming back, but that third time showed him a life without me...and it was clearly the life he did NOT want....love for me was still there, uncovering within himself, and stronger than he imagined.  He couldn't stand the thought.

He chose to still stay married at that time, but it was some time before I knew his decision; as his fear kept him quiet for quite awhile before he broke Withdrawal.

I'd known RCR was correct in what she was saying about people deciding on a different direction for their lives while within the tunnel, but I was unsure about when it would occur...so, I asked the Lord to show me.

The MLC'er still has to face consequences for their actions/adultery/treatment of the LBS, but they can decide on a different direction while within the tunnel.   IF they have not committed adultery; and simply divorce the LBS and go on, or even walk away; AND don't start up another relationship or even remarry in the process, they have NOT committed sin against God, although they HAVE sinned against the LBS AND God, by not being open with them.(Thou shalt NOT lie)  Yet, they are unable to do this out of fear, etc.

Even I had to face the possibilities of how this could come out, long before he recommitted to the marriage, but on some details, I was foggy at best.

My understanding is coming more clear as time goes on; and I'm more accepting of how this can happen; a place I wasn't in so long ago.

And I'm writing these things down as I see them more clearly; to help others understand the range of possibilities that can happen within the tunnel.

I can only hope it helps someone understand more about this monster we call MLC.

[Trustandlove]

HB, it's interesting what you say about them being able to decide on a different direction while in the tunnel.  I often wonder about my H in that regard.  He has shown himself to be a child, at least that is what it sounds like to me and to others to whom I recount the converstions (mostly here); however he also says  "I don't want to and that won't change".  I know I've wondered before if this is a decision already made.   

Now I know it isn't clear-cut, but he has been through some pretty down times, and not really considered coming back.  He did for a while near the beginning, but then said that he had thought about it, but that there were too many resentments.  Then for a bit he said that there might be some hope.   Then not.   Then he said that we get on well, we share core values, but he doesn't feel sexually attracted.  That he could love me as the mother of his children.  Then he admitted attraction. 

But through it all he still says he doesn't want to, that he doesn't go back.  And now he's added that his not wanting to won't change.

And yes, I know he means it right now.  That is how he feels, whether I like it or not.  Despite his petulant tone. 

I write because this bit left me a bit confused -- it seems to make sense, then that sense eludes me.  It's like it comes and goes, like a cloud that materialises into a shape and then out again: 

Easier to run away than to face all they've done, and to face the one they've done it to, is too much.  But it does NOT mean they won't come on through...it simply means they may take longer to process through.  In all three points, the love the MLC'er once had for the LBS is most likely gone or buried too deep to resurrect.

In each case the LBS may or may NOT be told....this is an individual decision, and regardless of how much the LBS would feel entitled to know; they may NOT get a chance to influence the MLC'er to change their minds.

I mean, it may go as far as the MLC'er telling the LBS to leave them alone, they are done with them, and they would actually MEAN what they were saying...and it can come at any of these three points, BEFORE the marriage is recommitted to.
 

[OldPilot]

T&L although I am sure what HB wrote is true, I really wonder how you can be sure that it applies in each situation.
More specifically to your situation.
I know I have told you to accept his feelings for now,
I just can't help thinking that his feeling now may not change after his crisis.
I am sure if I pushed my wife right now for her feelings she would not tell me what I want to hear.
Do I think those are really her true feelings?
NO!
Just what is coming out in words right now.

I do not feel you can measure their decision by words and maybe not even by actions while they are still in the tunnel.

HB what do you think about this?
Can you expound a little more?

[Trustandlove]

  I just can't help thinking that his feeling now may not change after his crisis.

OP, I just want to clarify this sentence -- does this mean that you think that his feelings are likely TO change, or COULD change after the crisis, or are likely NOT to change?  It sounds like you think that what he's feeling now will NOT change after the crisis, but based on what you wrote about your own wife above (that you don't think what she says now are her true feelilngs) I feel a bit confused.

Am I making sense?

And yes, I know I need to accept whatever it is. 

For my part, I completely agree that we can't measure their decisions by their words while in the tunnel. 

FWIW, I still feel calm. 

[OldPilot]

Yes you are making sense, I think I wrote that poorly.

I am sorry. I  should have left out the word "not".

I think his feelings MAY change.

Oh well, I am in midlife - you can't trust anything I say. LOL 

I am glad someone can catch my mistakes!

Edit, reason,  I cheated and went back and changed my post.

[Trustandlove]

 

Thank you, OP -- FWIW  I go back and change things like that as well....

[Rollercoasterider]

RCR does say that the OW can stay until the end of withdrawal but has to be gone before acceptance.

I don’t think that is specifically what I have said. I have said that there can be an alienator when an MLCer is no longer in Replay. Everyone has focused on that. But I have not said that it is common and people seem to leave that out. It is uncommon. I’ve seen people explain Replay asalienator = Replay as though it is a litmus test if there is an alienator—though it could be Replay without an alienator also, but if there is an alienator it must be Replay—or earlier.

The main importance is that it does not mean they are then with the alienator in Liminality. That would be highly uncommon. The specific case I think about each time I comment on this is a case of an MLCer who is stuck in Limbo which is the focus of an article series in the Newsletters coming out last week and for the next few issues. When Replay ends it does not mean they immediately go into Liminality. There may be a Limbo where they are between the phases, but not in either. That’s not so bad—this would be part of the awakening. The article series is about the extreme and rare cases of those who get stuck in Limbo—being in it does not mean they are stuck in it. An MLCer can also go back to Replay from this in-between phase. We often see that as cycling, but I wonder if there is something different in the cycling or if it is not what we usually refer to as cycling.

Liminality is rock bottom where they are the vulnerable and molted crab. But it is also a beautiful catharsis and reflection and is healthy when embraced. I’m not saying MLCers embrace it, but we all need Liminal periods.

The in-betweens who are stuck in Limbo don’t seem to have a rock bottom. I hope it is there, but it is more like falling into a black hole. I’ve said that Rock Bottom isn’t the lowest because they can dig deeper, but digging is an action. The in-betweens are not digging, they are just falling. You all think your MLCers are bad, Monsters, sad, lost…that is nothing compared to an in-between. The in-betweens goes through a psychotic breakdown; a typical MLC is like child’s play in comparison.

Is it possible that although not physically gone the OW/OM is emotionally gone and the relationship changes as the MLCer progresses along the tunnel by them distancing and detaching themselves at the end of replay?

The answer is yes, it can happen that way and in that fashion. What you're asking is can the OW/OM break it off, using this procedure, just as well as the MLC'er can by doing the SAME thing...it has been known to happen that way; bringing on the awakening process within the MLC'er, as well as literally forcing the MLC'er into the OW/OM Withdrawal process.

I did not see the question as asking merely whether either party breaks off the relationship with that procedure. In cases of the in-betweens (those stuck, not merely in Limbo without being stuck) the alienator may be present, but the relationship doesn’t exist. It is a disconnected coexistence and sometimes a codependence.

I was thinking about Replay and addiction withdrawals yesterday. Replay is the addictive high. The drugs of in-fatuation and other Replay behaviours are still able to elicit the high response. But think about junkies. Eventually the drugs are not used to get high, but to get higher in the low that perpetuates. Once they are low and the drugs only get them high-er but not high, that is not Replay. When I think of in-betweens and their alienator I think of junkies in run-down squalor lying on urine-soaked mattresses shooting each other up with shared needles. The MLCer may not be in the same physical squalor, but it is an emotional and mental squalor.

That addiction or junkie-low is also not Liminality. To be Liminal they shed the addictive behaviours. Shedding is different than releasing; it is not letting go but more like peeling off layers of clothing or skin. This shedding is part of the climb down the Liminal chasm. If they fall rather than climb down, they will shed on the way and at the bottom, but it may be like a painful ripping of skin and burnt flesh from tissue rather than the slower and more gradual experience of climbing down. A fall is when there is a crisis or traumatic event. Letting-Go is different. In Liminality a person reviews the Shadow fragments, determining what to keep and what to release—let-go. The shedding of skin is not necessarily something an MLCer does, but rather it is passive, happening to them. They may then choose to cling to those strips and piles of what used to be their outer protective coating. That metaphorical skin is part of the fragments they will review and choose to either release or use for their re-creation.

An MLCer who tries to run back to Replay after being in Liminality cannot survive because they are without their skin—exposed tissue and raw nerves. Perhaps that is how some become in-betweens, though others fall or climb back down into Liminality.

An MLCer can be stuck in Replay—or be progressing slowly. That is the case with the MLCer who continues to display Replay behaviours for years and years.

Although at some point we need to ask ourselves whether we are simply passing judgment on a lifestyle choice. Are we casual or intimate observers? What we see is only part of the story.

There was an answer I was praying for, in regards to the timing of when the MLC'er may decide their lives must go a different direction, and I was surprised by the answer I got, but it made a great deal of sense to me.

The Lord showed me at least three points in the tunnel where the MLC'er can decide that their lives go another direction.

The first point is just as the "awakening" occurs; the OW/OM is still within the picture; and the MLC'er CAN decide to just go on with them, as they "love" them; and it seems to be much easier to keep what they have currently, than to come back.
OR they can go on and dump them, and walk away from the LBS; this is a decision they can make.

The second point, is during Depression, as part of the damage is shown; they can decide at any time to just walk away and not come back....they may feel the damage cannot be fixed, no matter what they do; evidence of depression within.

The third point is during Withdrawal, when MORE of the damage done is shown. They are hit harder than they were during Depression; they may decide to cut their losses, and simply walk away.

Excellent. This is an excellent explanation. When I think of the what Jim Conway called Withdrawal I do not consider it a separate stage. I think of it is the upward climb from Liminality and continuing into Rebirth and I think it would be the portion of Withdrawal in Rebirth that this would occur.

HB, it's interesting what you say about them being able to decide on a different direction while in the tunnel. I often wonder about my H in that regard. He has shown himself to be a child, at least that is what it sounds like to me and to others to whom I recount the conversations (mostly here); however he also says "I don't want to and that won't change". I know I've wondered before if this is a decision already made.   

Now I know it isn't clear-cut, but he has been through some pretty down times, and not really considered coming back. He did for a while near the beginning, but then said that he had thought about it, but that there were too many resentments. Then for a bit he said that there might be some hope. Then not. Then he said that we get on well, we share core values, but he doesn't feel sexually attracted. That he could love me as the mother of his children. Then he admitted attraction.

But through it all he still says he doesn't want to, that he doesn't go back. And now he's added that his not wanting to won't change.

And yes, I know he means it right now. That is how he feels, whether I like it or not. Despite his petulant tone.

Trustandlove,

You are still describing him being inconsistent.

He did for a while…
But then…
Then for a bit…
Then not.
Then he said…but…
Then he admitted…

Then you describe his childish I don’t want to. He doesn’t want to face his feelings for you; he doesn’t want to lose control by having emotions; he doesn’t want to work on his Self. And so he denies and projects. You dismiss it, but his petulant tone is indicative of continuing Replay.

He may be consistent in one moment—or for a period of time, but he then says something that shows he is not yet certain. He may mean what he says when he says it, but that has no relevance to tomorrow. He is still mercurial.

I know that it is harder to see because he is neither high nor low energy where you can see Monster or depression. He functions and the two of you get along. But he has not shown significant (or any?) signs of reflection.

[Trustandlove]

Thanks for that explanation, RCR -- I may have to print that out to study further! 

I find it particularly interesting, as my H's MLC has gone on for quite a while now (yes, I know it's not that long in MLC terms, but I meant it isn't in the beginning stages, as for so many here), and there is much less written about this part. 

And you are right in that he hasn't shown signs of reflection.  For a while I thought there were some, but either he's hiding them well, or there aren't any. 

On my own thread I wrote out the chain of events, showing how he has changed, or rather how he has been inconsistent, to use your word, over the course of this crisis.  That was educational in itself.