[kikki]

each of us can probably identify the moment when our own partner's behaviour started to exhibit a mental health flavour. I don't have a better medical word for it than "not alright" - the shark look in the eyes, the feverish actions and narcissism, the violent anger and oppositional/defiant behaviour - above all, the abrupt personality change from the person they were, mere weeks or months before. Something badly went off the wires, at a definable time point. 

Do you think this would 'do' as a submission to the dsm team for the next edition?  I think it is an excellent summary and potential diagnosis osb 

most massive behavioural changes that have an abrupt point of onset, also have an endpoint. Not scientific, just my anecdotal thoughts. Sudden catastrophic changes in any organ system tend to be reversible; chronic incremental changes are the irreversible ones.

This is an exceptionally good point osb.

whether our partners prove strong enough to undo the mess of their own making, when they wake to it... there's the rub.

Yes, this seems to be the clincher, and the unknown factor.

it happens I work in an ICU. We are silly folks who persist in believing things may get better when every sensible soul might give up - rule of thumb used to be, until three organ systems are irrevocably damaged, the case isn't desperate yet! - so maybe that ethos shows up in my emotions too?  My H has damaged my heart and my confidence; but to date he has failed to irrevocably damage my mind and faith. So still I dare to think this MLC is reversible.

I love this.  So many of us have questioned what makes us different to those who can kick their MLC spouses, to the curb.  I think this sums it up perfectly.  Most of us are still only two organ systems down.
Thank you osb.  Much to think about.

Interesting discussion T, and thank you - would love to read about the schizophrenia/MLC link when you get the chance.

[OldPilot]

There is a thread at the top of the forum that includes instructions for newbies and advice for advising.

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

I will re-read this shortly but I dont recall any advice in what RCR has written that needs to be changed.
If you tell me that others give bad advice on the forum, well that is possible, and is something that we try to correct as gently as possible.

I would discourage any one from giving the advice that their is NO HOPE since HOPE is within us and something WE can CONTROL.
However the TIME element is certainly something that needs to be discussed and not swept under the rug.

I also believe that those of us that do not detach, may contribute to time spent in this nightmare.
Now what degree of detachment is necessary can be up for debate.

We are the ones that must lead our families forward and to get on living our lives "as if" they are never coming back.

Oh and FTR as far as  I know my wife has never had an affair with a real person.
So does that  mean their was no infidelity?
After reading some other websites I have decided that infidelity can include just plain abandonment with no other person involved.

And as DGU has posted above abandonment is part of MLC.

[justasking]

Thundarr

Although my post is not about MLC I would like to pick this up with you and ask you to pin point the research that identified this:

 Because the person closest to someone is NOT a reliable source of information about them in almost all cases.  And the reason for this is that they are the most BIASED.  When we diagnose a child with ADHD for example, we give the parent a rating instrument to gauge their perception of the child's behaviors but we put more weight on the one we give the teacher because of less risk of unaccounted for variables.  Perhaps the child acts up more at home because they are reacting to the parenting style.  I'd like to have a dollar for every parent who has brought their child in for an ADHD diagnosis based on their behavior at home only to hear them report the child is "an angel at school."

I work in a team that supports children with disability including all the ASD spectrum disorders, ADHD being one of them. To us the parents give the most accurate account of their child's behaviour and actually at times under play it in my view.

Children often 'behave' at school and then become challenging and aggressive at home. Most are children who have sensory dysfunction and by the end of the day they are at overload. It is like filling a fizzy pop bottle. Eventually the fizz will just explode through the top just as a child does at home with challenging behaviour and hypermobility.

A teachers perception of a child (particularly in they are in a mainstream setting and not a special school) is that parents should make them behave and that the child has dysfunctional parenting. Very interesting when you think in this country they have minimal training on learning needs and disability unless they specialise in it. They see the behaviour as a challenge NOT a symptom of something. Yet you identify that they are the best people to identify and comment on a child as it is unbiased and objective. I have also been a  school nurse and believe me I met a lot of teachers who were opinionated, subjective and biased about the children in their class.

But I am open to any research that says otherwise as we need to keep up to date and broaden our knowledge base.

Good to get lots of different views though 

[Thundarr]

JA,  here is a link to one of several studies done that found parent reports were inferior to teacher reports on ADHD diagnosis.  I'm not saying parent reports are invalid or should always be discounted, but research does support teacher reports being more reliable.  I do want to add that I completely agree that the average teacher is I'll-trained to work with ASD kids, which is why a large part of my job involves training teachers and other caregivers.  This needs to change and soon!

http://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncg/f/a_anastopoulos_predictive_1998.pdf

[Jagger]

I would like to echo Serenity's comment.

 I discovered this website 8 months post bd. To say that it saved my sanity, would be an understatement . My h had 3 attempted early returns by this time and then went deep into the tunnel. I was questioning my own sanity by this time and he had beaten me down with his cruel words and deplorable actions. I'm at the 2 year mark and have seen his MLC eerily play out exactly how described by RC R's articles and by the experiences of many of the members of this forum.

It has been a lifeline for me, and more importantly made it possible for me  to navigate my three children through this unbelievable nightmare.

In my opinion, almost every poster here has shown responsibility when advising newbies and oldies alike. We are constantly reminded   to : Trust your instinct, you know your situation and your H the best. No two situations are alike, take what works and leave the rest , etc.... .

It is heartbreaking when a newbie first posts and almost miraculous when they begin to restore their battered self esteem rather quickly with the support and compassion of this forum. Not everyone posts, I very rarely do , but I don't know where I would be without the comfort of knowing that I am not alone  and the wise words of some of the most intelligent people I have come across.

Just my humble 2 cents worth.

Jagger

[forthetrees]

My two cents: Newbies should be aware of the time scale- for me it prompted me to go get a Master´s degree knowing I had at least two years. I would say that two years is a pipe dream and would tell people that they can plan on the time scale of a PhD:).

Regarding infidelity- I think they all do it in one way or another and usually before moving out or giving "the speech."

What I think needs more posting is the toll this takes on the LBSer and his/her children. I for one am sure that my MS is due to the stress that this situation caused. I am now experiencing a relapse in response to h´s newest legal maneuver. I think it IS valid for the LBSer to question the cost to his/her health in waiting this out. I don´t regret my marriage. I do regret prolonging my stand as my health was so negatively impacted. There are several others who have received diagnoses of breast cancer, thyroid conditions and back surgeries. We too easily discount the mind-body connection.

Having been on the site for three years, I´ve seen many commonalities. I think as a generality, the MLCer is passive-aggressive and conflict avoidant. The LBSer is outspoken and does not play mind games. The MLCer is weak in terms of being sneaky and lying and the LBSer is blindsided and left in a sobbing puddle on the floor- literally. I do think that the MLCers are depressed, BUT this does not excuse the cruel treatment. They seem to have unilaterally bailed without a sincere attempt to address their concerns and the longer time goes on, the more those concerns seem to be personal issues on their part. The LBSers are strong, nurturing, caring, and loving. We deserve to have partners that acknowledge and validate those loving qualities. LIFE IS SHORT. I do think that there is a limit to how many chances and how low a MCLer is "allowed" before the door to reconciliation is closed. Each person has his or her own limit before standing down. That does NOT mean that we lose hope for the situation of others.

[alwayshope]

Having been on the site for three years, I´ve seen many commonalities. I think as a generality, the MLCer is passive-aggressive and conflict avoidant. The LBSer is outspoken and does not play mind games. The MLCer is weak in terms of being sneaky and lying and the LBSer is blindsided and left in a sobbing puddle on the floor- literally. I do think that the MLCers are depressed, BUT this does not excuse the cruel treatment. They seem to have unilaterally bailed without a sincere attempt to address their concerns and the longer time goes on, the more those concerns seem to be personal issues on their part. The LBSers are strong, nurturing, caring, and loving. We deserve to have partners that acknowledge and validate those loving qualities. LIFE IS SHORT. I do think that there is a limit to how many chances and how low a MCLer is "allowed" before the door to reconciliation is closed. Each person has his or her own limit before standing down. That does NOT mean that we lose hope for the situation of others.

This description fits H and I to a tee.  Great observation.

[Thundarr]

Excellent feedback from all regardless of which position is taken.  I can say this site and LT probably saved my life too as I hit absolute rock bottom and even had a suicide plan at one point (which I negated by creating a safety valve).  There's no doubt the toll this takes on one's health and vitality of life, and I can certainly understand someone ending their stand in order to save themselves.  But, what does ending your stand even mean?  Does it mean dating?  Getting in another relationship?  Simply closing the door and telling yourself you will NOT take your spouse back under ANY circumstances?  Standing is a concept as opposed to a material thing so it would stand to reason it has different meanings for different people, different cultures notwithstanding.

Having given this some thought I would propose letting the newbie control the amount of information thrown at them.  RCR has of course put together a near-comprehensive set of articles and readings on MLC that help to make any of the newbies who take time to read it much more versed in the ins and outs of MLC so they can guide the information they receive and how it is dissected.  I would NOT condone telling a newbie to brace for an OP because "all MLCers commit infidelity."  I would, however, answer any questions they had honestly but with a sensitive ear to where they are at in grieving and what they are ready to face.  Let's focus on helping them take care of the here and now and worry about how long and how severe once they are back to a point of stable footing.  As our own OP says, we have the gift of time.  No one has to have the whole of MLC dumped on them at once, especially when they have usually had so much dumped on them by the time they get here anyway.

[Thundarr]

I wanted to share this from Ala's thread.  I think it sums up perfectly one of the points I was trying to make much better than I did:

In response to Hobo and Rebel yell,
my fear is that as stated by Rebel Yell, we write this off as MLC too early and don't allow that decision to walk away to be theirs.

If we close down, go dark, cut off contact, we are declaring a position possibly too early and may be forcing a direction. My worry is that we don't over recognise MLC as many symptoms of a dissatisfied spouse who wants reassurance when kids leave home, a death or some other crisis, can be simply a dissatisfied or frightened spouse.
Many many couples have separated at this time and after a few months got back together. But this is only achieved by communication and not by closing down.
I know at least two examples where a wife left for one year, did nothing destructive and returned to a happy family.

This is not most usual, but it is a possibility and I don't think we hear about all cases.
My main point is responsibility. If the marriage is to be damaged we should be minimising that damage rather than emphasising it. If a partner is in fear we should be supportive. If they are uncertain we should be making reassurance.

If they are spending recklessly or having affairs, then we should be closing the shutters. Preserving stability and managing the family.

I just fear that a blip in  marriage could sometimes be pushed further by over reaction and this we must be careful. This was not my case, I was blind until it was too late.
Warning signs were there but I did not see them and I think at that time I reacted wrongly in that I did not do anything. 

Often by the time people find this Forum it is in MLC, but some may be searching for answers early. They may be the lucky ones.

[Dontgiveup]

I would NOT condone telling a newbie to brace for an OP because "all MLCers commit infidelity."

It seems the two things you are focused on are the time frame and the affair.  There is certainly some variance in time frame and, like RCR writes in the Acceptance article......most of us will learn about the accuracy of the time frame through experience.

The revealing of another person is often part of bomb drop (RCR's blog "What is Bomb Drop" references this).....so many if not most newbies may be dealing with it already.  While my MLCer did not have OM at the time of bomb drop, she made it clear at that time her intention was to find one.  Mission accomplished.