[Thundarr]

I posted this on my thread but then decided I wanted to bring more attention to it and put it out there to everyone.  Of late, we have had at least 3 other therapists join the board who can help in adding to what I've written here but we also have several who have studied MLC enough to have a Ph. D in it without ever attaining a formal degree so I really value their input as well.  As always, all respectful opinions are welcome as is feedback and questions.  Let it fly, guys!

The topic of discussion I want to broach is that on this site we seem to be so MLC-centric that we tend to deal with every situation by the "LBS playbook" and oftentimes almost discourage some newbies it seems by telling them in a roundabout way that it's either hopeless or that they can count on having years of separation and infidelity to look forward to.  But, the truth is that no one here including myself is qualified to diagnose MLC and especially not vicariously through another person's account.  I'm qualified and licensed to diagnose anything in the DSM-IV but would never diagnose someone's spouse based solely on what the person was telling me about them.  It would not only be malpractice but foolishness of the highest order.  And why, you ask?  Because the person closest to someone is NOT a reliable source of information about them in almost all cases.  And the reason for this is that they are the most BIASED.  When we diagnose a child with ADHD for example, we give the parent a rating instrument to gauge their perception of the child's behaviors but we put more weight on the one we give the teacher because of less risk of unaccounted for variables.  Perhaps the child acts up more at home because they are reacting to the parenting style.  I'd like to have a dollar for every parent who has brought their child in for an ADHD diagnosis based on their behavior at home only to hear them report the child is "an angel at school."  Moral of the story is that I have no idea whose spouses here are really in MLC or if any are at all, and I also cannot diagnose my own XW as I'm too biased. 

So, what point am I trying to make?  We should follow the lead of those who have gone before and been successful (just like in anything), but we should also look for real signs and not discount our spouses' behaviors as "cycling" or "Nice Monster" without at least considering following techniques that might work with estranged spouses in "normal situations."  As OP says, "No Expectations" but that should never mean to give up hope or stop trying which is the message I'm afraid some of the newbies might be getting.  None of us know whether or not our spouses are in MLC and I would hate to think someone missed out on the chance for a reconciliation because they thought their spouse had not "been in the tunnel" long enough.

[Anjae]

So, what do you propose, Thundarr? Ask the MLCer? They will deny anything is wrong with them, let alone having a MLC. Ask their new friends? Ask the OW/OM?

And we have not "diagnosed" our spouses MLC because of what we say (or what they say) but because of the things they do.

How do you diagnose something? A schizophrenic is not going to tell you they are one. Are you going to believe what the delusional schizophrenic tells you (that the spouse or relatives want to poison them and so on) or the sane spouse and relatives? I know one of the questions it is made to schizophrenics is if they hear voices, if they ever hear someone tell them they have to do this or that but they may lie.

You are forgetting, I think, that in MLC is the MLCer who is not a reliable source of information. About themselves and about the LBS/family. So, who is going to be the reliable source? Do you believe what your wife tells or yourself?

DMS-IV will soon be DIM-V. Maybe one day DMS will have MLC. Things change and evolve, even depression classification is going to change for DMS-V

"to deal with every situation by the "LBS playbook" and oftentimes almost discourage some newbies it seems by telling them in a roundabout way that it's either hopeless or that they can count on having years of separation and infidelity to look forward to."

Do you want to play by the MLCer playbook? And how would that book be? "I'm never coming back", "you've been a terrible wife/husband for the whole of our marriage", "I've been unhappy for 10,15,20,25 years..."...

Don't remember anyone telling there is no hope. The truth/fact is there are years of separation and infidelity. Or are you forgetting the stories of all of us here?... Would your prefer us to omit that and sugar coat how things are?

And some of us have had MLC of our own, we will be able to tell you how it was and to recognise in others.

Who are the 3 other therapists of the board?

[Thundarr]

Duthla and Beginagain have come out publicly and identified themselves as therapists.  There is one more but I can't remember if they told me in a PM or on the open board so I will leave it to them to identify here if they choose.

You make an excellent point, AnneJ, about the comparison to a schizophrenia diagnosis ((and also remind me that I promised Kikki I'd make a thread comparing the prodromal (early onset) stage of schizophrenia and MLC and I'll try to do that this weekend)).  I would not diagnose someone as schizophrenic without at least meeting the person first, but yes a combination of their outlandish statements along with the report of their relative based upon factual reports (not subjective views or opinions but facts to dispute the outlandish statements) would be sufficient for the diagnosis in most cases.  And is self-reporting really valid in historical diagnoses?  Some therapists would assign a diagnosis of "Major Depression by history (hx)" to someone who had reported going through something similar to MLC but unless they had been diagnosed by someone in the past most would shy away from it and limit their diagnosis to what is currently going on. 

And DSM-V was supposed to be out by the end of the month and I will have to very quickly become an expert on it as the insurance companies will want us using it immediately.  I had not heard how the depression classification was going to change but I have heard of many other changes as I used to work with one of the psychiatrists who had been invited to be a reviewer.  I look forward to seeing how the field has evolved. 

And no going by the MLC playbook!!  Heavens no.  But, there are some here whose spouses either did not follow the same patterns as others or were never MLC at all.  It's been awhile but one point that DGU and I did agree on in the past is that not every situation here is MLC.  As OP says, the 180 and other strategies for dealing with what is happening are the same regardless but everyone here may not have to suffer through years of this.  Before anyone suggests, I know it will likely be years down the road for me if ever and it already has been at least 2 so I'm not counting myself among them.  But one of the newbie threads here (not calling anyone out) is mixed between "You can possibly save your marriage" and "Your marriage is over."  That's pretty rough for a newbie to read and I would hate to see someone discouraged or driven away from the site due to this.

And I also want to point out that I'm not saying that ANYONE is doing anything wrong as we all have formed a community focused on helping others as best we can through our own experiences.  I just think that from time to time those of use who have been on this road awhile need to examine the message we are sending to those new to it. 

[1Cor.13]

Hi All,

 Well Thundarr, you made some intersting points but I believe AnneJ hit the proverbial nail on the head. Social sciences always seem to start with an"operational definition" of what something "is"..I can tell you from my own deeply painful experiances with my H that he walked away from everyone who ever truly loved him and knew him..with me leaving out all the crazed s$it of the OW, her kids, his (non) financial support of his own child, his anger, well, we know the possibilities here.
  The problem with the "psychology" field, if I may humbly say this based on my on extensive round-abouts with the system (our daughter has bi-polar disorder and it took 4 years for "them" to figure out it was not all behavior related)..this field is so lacking in any moral-value, integrity based standpoint or analysis..am I making sense here? Some things are just plain evil and comes from the satanic side, and all that the evil one does to destroy marriages/families/children/legasies..I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift, humbly?
  Until our society recognizes the moral decay and dishonesty that our MLC's perpetrate on their families and the fragile moral fabic of society in general, and admit that there is a HUGE spiritual dead zone and the injuries it brings with it..then the psychologists/therapists/MD psychiatrists are spouting nothing more than academics with a tinge of educated bla bla, and that's just the way this woman sees it.

I appreciate the dialog, always.
Be blessed
1Cor.13 (the true definition of what love is and is not)

[alwayshope]

Interesting discussion - but as a newbie, and a terribly sensitive soul, it makes me once again reconsider MLC, and look inward.  If I don't rely on MLC, then I am forced to believe what my H has said.

- I have been trying to get rid of you for 18 years
- You tricked me into marrying you
- I don't want to be with you
- I love you but I'm not in love with you
- You make me feel ugly, unloved and unwanted
- I am not emotionally or physically attracted to you
- We are not right for each other, our personalities clash

.... etc....

As the days go by, it is easy for me to lose focus on this being a crisis.  I often times forget, because there is hardly any interaction, and begin to believe all of his words.  And then I say to myself 'why not? they could all be true!'.  And I viciously spiral downward into despair.  And hopelessness. 

I wish that any part of this was easy.  But there is no easy part.  None.  It hurts, no matter how you look at it.  Do I want to be fooled into thinking that this is MLC, when in fact it may just be the reality of his choice?  I do not. I am a realist, and appreciate the truth.

It would truly help if MLC was a recognized diagnosis... not just a term people toss out there mocking the purchase of a red sports car, by a 50 year old man. 

I don't even know if my thoughts are connecting, lol, I'm tired!  But thanks for the interesting topic!

[alwayshope]

Hi All,

 Well Thundarr, you made some intersting points but I believe AnneJ hit the proverbial nail on the head. Social sciences always seem to start with an"operational definition" of what something "is"..I can tell you from my own deeply painful experiances with my H that he walked away from everyone who ever truly loved him and knew him..with me leaving out all the crazed s$it of the OW, her kids, his (non) financial support of his own child, his anger, well, we know the possibilities here.
  The problem with the "psychology" field, if I may humbly say this based on my on extensive round-abouts with the system (our daughter has bi-polar disorder and it took 4 years for "them" to figure out it was not all behavior related)..this field is so lacking in any moral-value, integrity based standpoint or analysis..am I making sense here? Some things are just plain evil and comes from the satanic side, and all that the evil one does to destroy marriages/families/children/legasies..I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift, humbly?
  Until our society recognizes the moral decay and dishonesty that our MLC's perpetrate on their families and the fragile moral fabic of society in general, and admit that there is a HUGE spiritual dead zone and the injuries it brings with it..then the psychologists/therapists/MD psychiatrists are spouting nothing more than academics with a tinge of educated bla bla, and that's just the way this woman sees it.

I appreciate the dialog, always.
Be blessed
1Cor.13 (the true definition of what love is and is not)

Amen.  I had somebody point out to me, it is sin.  Plain and simple.  And yes, I get that.  Hard for me to discern if H had a mental/emotional breakdown of sorts, which caused him to 'lose it', and make these horrific choices, OR, did he allow himself to be tempted, and drawn away, into making sinful choices???  Either way, I believe that satan is the one temporarily in charge of H, leading him astray, and now H is dealing with his PRIDE... telling me one weekend that he wanted to 'come home, but just for the girls', (he got a negative reaction from D17 for that), to the next weekend saying 'it's too late'.  How so H, how so?  He didn't have to answer.  His pride revealed itself. 

I don't know if I got a little off topic from what you were saying 1Cor13, forgive me if so, but the spiritual aspect of this is something I feel very strongly about.

[Thundarr]

Hello 1Cor, and thank you for being honest in stating your opinion.  I guess the first point I would make in regards to what you wrote is that all accepted mental health beliefs and techniques can be found in the Bible.  I'm sadly not fluent enough on Bible verses to quote which scriptures pertain to which principles but they are all there.  Therapy is not something that has been invented that just simply didn't exist before, but rather a framework based upon the knowledge that has been passed down through generations.  I'm sure there are references in the Koran and Book of Mormon among others that would also qualify as being directly in line with mental health.  Below is a link to an article that I think you would agree with wholeheartedly, based on what you wrote.  Also, I'm sorry for the trouble you went through in getting your daughter properly diagnosed.  Therapists and psychiatrists are human and we do make mistakes.  Unfortunately, often when we do someone else pays the price for it.

http://www.ucg.org/files/reprints/pdf/MentalHealth.pdf

(I also just saw that the DSM-V WAS published 5 days ago.  I need to catch up!!).

I also wanted to mention that what you wrote reminded me of what a doctor friend of mine told me once.  There are "Christian Counselors" and "Christian" counselors, meaning that just because a therapist is a Christian it does not mean that they integrate Christian values and beliefs into their practice.  On the flip side, some counselors who are certified as "Christian Counselors" do not use evidence-based techniques and often do more harm than good.  As a practicing Catholic, I like to believe that I follow God's directives through what I do and how I do it both at work and with the family.  I may be off the mark and may not be doing as good a job as I think I am, but I do see what I do as a mission and not a "job."

Alwayshope, you're very welcome but I had no intention of discounting MLC as existing or insinuating that most if not all of our spouses are not in an actual crisis.  There is no doubt that based on the accounts of the LBSes here that something is not as it should be, but my point is that some of us veterans may perhaps be jaded by our own situations or by having read so many similar accounts that we may unintentionally give off the message that this IS going to take years and that our spouses WILL have an affair.  I think in some if not many ways this deviates from the original intent RCR had in creating this site (please correct me if I'm wrong, RCR).  What your H has said is unrealistic and illogical, and I base that on the statement of you making him feel ANY certain way and notwithstanding the fact that there is no such thing as "trying to get rid of you for 18 years."  How?  Poisoning?  Treating with a "cure"?  Please hear me when I firmly say NO ONE SHOULD TAKE WHAT THEIR SPOUSES ARE SAYING ABOUT THEM PERSONALLY. 

[Anjae]

Duthla and Beginagain have come out publicly and identified themselves as therapists.

Thank you, Thundarr. I think I missed it when they post that info.

Therapist can diagnose schizophrenia is the US? Here that is only for doctors, normally psychiatrist and/or neurologists but a GP can do it and, to confirm, send the person to a psychiatrist and/or neurologist. Normally it will be to a psychiatrist. Therapists here also cannot prescribe medicines unless they are clinical therapist and those have to be MD’s.

So, you are saying that someone like Mr J (and other MLCers here) who had been diagnosed (by MDs) with depression and exhaustion, twice previous to MLC and once when he already was in the early days of Replay (still at home) would get diagnosed MLC?

Mr J told me, several times before he left, he was depressed. The doctor from the company he worked for at the time, as well as the GP, disgnosed him with depression. Needless to say, like all (or nearly all MLCers), he never care and start to run from the doctors. A thing he had not done in the two previous times.

I have heard that depression classification was going to change on the Drugs and the Brain course I took at Caltech/Coursera. In the early 2013 classes, when Depression was approached it was said that depression often is also manifested by anger, especially in men, and that the new description would have to take that, and other manifestations of depression, in consideration. Do you know where one would be able to consult the DMS-V changes online?

As for not follow the same patterns, I think not everyone with a mental disorder/illness follows the exact same patterns (that is why some disorders have more than one category – like, for exemple, Bipolar I, II and cyclothymia -,  and, when new patters are observed, things change and are revaluated). That some here have spouses who are not, nor have ever be in MLC it is true. I also agree with that and some others as well.

As OP says, the 180 and other strategies for dealing with what is happening are the same regardless but everyone here may not have to suffer through years of this. 

This is true. Everyone where may not have to suffer through years of this. But on average one will have to. I think we tend to deal, and refer to, averages. Of course someone may only have a short, one year MLC. From what I have seen here on the board and real life that seems to be very rare. Very rare, of course, is not the same as impossible or non-existent. 

Lets, see, we cannot save our marriage, yet the marriage can still get back on track. We cannot save it (or at least not while the crisis is going on) because it takes two to save and work on a marriage, but it can back on track when the spouse MLC is over. And, yes, the old marriage is dead. That is not the same as the marriage is dead. Just like we, LBS, are not the same post spouse MLC, nor will the marriage be. In that sense, the marriage is dead and cannot be saved. But something new, and, it is said, better, can come of it. 

I just think that from time to time those of use who have been on this road awhile need to examine the message we are sending to those new to it. 

Agree. But we all, at times, have our doubts, ups and downs, less good moments. For most of us this is a long, tiring, difficult, road. At times the message may become a little confused/mixed. Examine it from time to time is a good thing.

[alwayshope]

Thanks for your response Thundarr, and for saying what my H said is unrealistic and illogical, I am encouraged by that!  I'm such a newbie... 

Can't wait to read others opinions on this, thanks again!  Hope you are doing well!

[Anjae]

Duthla and Beginagain have come out publicly and identified themselves as therapists.

Thank you, Thundarr. I think I missed it when they post that info.

Therapist can diagnose schizophrenia is the US? Here that is only for doctors, normally psychiatrist and/or neurologists but a GP can do it and, to confirm, send the person to a psychiatrist and/or neurologist. Normally it will be to a psychiatrist. Therapists here also cannot prescribe medicines unless they are clinical therapist and those have to be MD’s.

So, you are saying that someone like Mr J (and other MLCers here) who had been diagnosed (by MDs) with depression and exhaustion, twice previous to MLC and once when he already was in the early days of Replay (still at home) would get diagnosed MLC?

Mr J told me, several times before he left, he was depressed. The doctor from the company he worked for at the time, as well as the GP, diagnosed him with depression. Needless to say, like all (or nearly all MLCers), he never care and start to run from the doctors. A thing he had not done in the two previous times.

I have heard that depression classification was going to change on the Drugs and the Brain course I took at Caltech/Coursera. In the early 2013 classes, when Depression was approached it was said that depression often is also manifested by anger, especially in men, and that the new description would have to take that, and other manifestations of depression, in consideration. Do you know where one would be able to consult the DMS-V changes online?

As for not follow the same patterns, I think not everyone with a mental disorder/illness follows the exact same patterns (that is why some disorders have more than one category – like, for example, Bipolar I, II and cyclothymia -,  and, when new patters are observed, things change and are revaluated). That some here have spouses who are not, nor have ever be in MLC it is true. I also agree with that and some others as well.

As OP says, the 180 and other strategies for dealing with what is happening are the same regardless but everyone here may not have to suffer through years of this. 

This is true. Everyone where may not have to suffer through years of this. But on average one will have to. I think we tend to deal, and refer to, averages. Of course someone may only have a short, one year MLC. From what I have seen here on the board and real life that seems to be very rare. Very rare, of course, is not the same as impossible or nonexistent. 

Lets, see, we cannot save our marriage, yet the marriage can still get back on track. We cannot save it (or at least not while the crisis is going on) because it takes two to save and work on a marriage, but it can back on track when the spouse MLC is over. And, yes, the old marriage is dead. That is not the same as the marriage is dead. Just like we, LBS, are not the same post spouse MLC, nor will the marriage be. In that sense, the marriage is dead and cannot be saved. But something new, and, it is said, better, can come of it. 

I just think that from time to time those of use who have been on this road awhile need to examine the message we are sending to those new to it. 

Agree. But we all, at times, have our doubts, ups and downs, less good moments. For most of us this is a long, tiring, difficult, road. At times the message may become a little confused/mixed. Examine it from time to time is a good thing.

It would truly help if MLC was a recognized diagnosis... not just a term people toss out there mocking the purchase of a red sports car, by a 50 year old man. 

Yes it would. As everyone here knows, I'm more inclined, and at easy, with the neuro-hormonal side of MLC and have been taking some neuroscience and genetic short courses. The psychological side eludes me a bit. Or better, I tend to get it from my Humanities background, namely the Classic Greek Epics and Plays and other literature or philosophy sources.