[Thundarr]

Take it for what it's worth AnneJ, but generally Wikipedia is pretty accurate on DSM topics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5

And thank you Alwayshope, I am doing well overall!

[Anjae]

Thank you, Thundarr. It is late here. I'll take a look at the link tomorrow.

[honour]

and oftentimes almost discourage some newbies it seems by telling them in a roundabout way that it's either hopeless or that they can count on having years of separation and infidelity to look forward to. 

Can you point to any threads where this hasn't been the case? Because there is separation, there is infidelity, there is cruelty and viciousness in almost every thread on this forum and on almost every thread at other forums.

What advice do you suggest we give those new to the forum?

[Dontgiveup]

but my point is that some of us veterans may perhaps be jaded by our own situations or by having read so many similar accounts that we may unintentionally give off the message that this IS going to take years

"So many similar accounts" could also be referred to as sample size, which can indicate validity.  As far as the time frame, RCR addresses that in the article "Acceptance".  And yes, part of the Acceptance of MLC includes it's time frame.  There's a separate article called Midlife Crisis Takes Time.

If your goal is speed, it will fail. But most of you will need to learn that through experience. Make your goal Acceptance. It is my wish that you accept the Time reality and make goals within that context. But most of you have the fantasy and hope that you will be the exception, you will change his mind or maybe you doubt it is MLC and therefore believe it will be faster for you. Maybe you are right; exceptions to rules are part of the rules and this is your journey.

and that our spouses WILL have an affair.

You put "will" in all caps, meaning an absolute.  Here's where RCR addresses it in the articles.....it's a rare few who don't cheat in some form.  One of the basics of MLC is abandoning the spouse.

Infidelity
Though this is merely a symptom of the Dis-Ease, it is often the most painful and public. It is not a litmus test for determining MLC. An affair is about a relationship--the MLCer forms a bond with the other person. Most midlife affairs become sexual (physical), but there are some who have Internet affairs, emotional affairs or use pornography instead. It is a rare few who do not cheat on their spouse in some form.

[osb]

This is a very interesting discussion. And DSM-V is already out on the shelves in my med faculty library, of course without a word of MLC in it  no surprise there!

No I'm nothing resembling a therapist - and most certainly not a veteran! - but have a solid grounding in basic psychiatry (though more adolescent than adult) - so at least the field isn't unknown to me. Kindly caveat lexor! But FWIW I think we don't have consensus (anywhere, not just on this forum!) re specific diagnostic language around MLC. So we should acquit each other of trying to diagnose at a distance. But each of us can probably identify the moment when our own partner's behaviour started to exhibit a mental health flavour. I don't have a better medical word for it than "not alright" - the shark look in the eyes, the feverish actions and narcissism, the violent anger and oppositional/defiant behaviour - above all, the abrupt personality change from the person they were, mere weeks or months before. Something badly went off the wires, at a definable time point. 

...there is separation, there is infidelity, there is cruelty and viciousness in almost every thread on this forum and on almost every thread at other forums.

Very true. It's horrible, and well-nigh unforgivable. But I suppose most massive behavioural changes that have an abrupt point of onset, also have an endpoint. Not scientific, just my anecdotal thoughts. Sudden catastrophic changes in any organ system tend to be reversible; chronic incremental changes are the irreversible ones. Don't think that's wishful thinking, seems to show up in many threads including my own. But whether our partners prove strong enough to undo the mess of their own making, when they wake to it... there's the rub. Eventually so many of them do seem to get it on some level; but they aren't strong enough to deal with the consequences - hence all kinds of self-medication ensues, to force their conscious thoughts to stay safely in fantasy land.

Remembering many years ago when I studied psychiatry, a smelly and disheveled, quite schizophrenic gentleman sitting in his locked room reading Hemingway. He asked me "Since it doesn't bother anyone or change anything, why don't you just leave me to MY reality, and I'll leave you to YOURS?". ...I didn't have any kind of an answer. Still don't.

[Thundarr]

and oftentimes almost discourage some newbies it seems by telling them in a roundabout way that it's either hopeless or that they can count on having years of separation and infidelity to look forward to. 

Can you point to any threads where this hasn't been the case? Because there is separation, there is infidelity, there is cruelty and viciousness in almost every thread on this forum and on almost every thread at other forums.

What advice do you suggest we give those new to the forum?

As far as male LBSes I can think of OP, Riven, Welsh (possibly), and DGU as well as his XW appears to have waited until after the D to have an OM.  From LT there was NJR and a few others who I can't recall as it's been down so long.  And we must also look at the stories of Ready2Transform, AnneJ, Beautiful Star, Lisa from LT and several others who self-report an MLC but never had an affair.  As far as female LBSes go I can think of Wed2HimWhatever, Tsunami, JD, ZafraD and a few others who I can't recall on this late hour.  As DGU pointed out there are no absolutes.

And as far as advice to the newbies?  I think taking care of themselves is tantamount, as is coming to a point of not blaming themselves.  Other than that I would say that most are seeking empathy rather than directives to "get ready for several years of this,""anticipate that your spouse has or will cheat on you" and "get ready for your spouse to verbally abuse you and destroy your finances."  Yes, those things happen all too frequently with those who choose to share their stories here but rather than adding onto the fears the newbies face before even coming here I think it better to simply advise them to eat, sleep, separate their accounts and take care of themselves in general.  I think in some ways we unknowingly focus too much on what the MLCers are doing (guilty as charged, btw) and tend to not focus enough on the one in the relationship we CAN help - the LBS.

[honour]

...there is separation, there is infidelity, there is cruelty and viciousness in almost every thread on this forum and on almost every thread at other forums.

Very true. It's horrible, and well-nigh unforgivable.

It is very true. So in light of Thundarr's advice that we re examine what we tell newbies, what do we tell newbies?

[Dontgiveup]

There is a thread at the top of the forum that includes instructions for newbies and advice for advising.

[osb]

 
...there is separation, there is infidelity, there is cruelty and viciousness in almost every thread on this forum and on almost every thread at other forums.

  Very true. It's horrible, and well-nigh unforgivable.

It is very true. So in light of Thundarr's advice that we re examine what we tell newbies, what do we tell newbies?

I guess the turning point is well-nigh unforgivable, or simply unforgivable?? And that's not a question for our partners to answer, that question is for each newbie in the dark of the night. All these bad things may happen, perpetrated by our partners. They may keep happening for a long time. Each of us have fixed endpoints within ourselves, boundaries which just cannot be crossed, which we may not even recognize until after they're already crossed. On the other hand, as we grow inside, surely our boundaries may change.

Speaking for my own self, while the forum gave me a wonderful sanctuary, a framework and a vocabulary, I had a personal task: to go hunting for my boundaries - perhaps not always the same as my LBS sisters and brothers, but mine own. Each of us has a mortal vulnerability, though some (all?) of us store it in non-standard places. And it happens I work in an ICU. We are silly folks who persist in believing things may get better when every sensible soul might give up - rule of thumb used to be, until three organ systems are irrevocably damaged, the case isn't desperate yet! - so maybe that ethos shows up in my emotions too?  My H has damaged my heart and my confidence; but to date he has failed to irrevocably damage my mind and faith. So still I dare to think this MLC is reversible. What do I know? I'm still a newbie in many ways; so very little.

[serenity]

I think this is a really good discussion.

I just wanted to say, that although I haven't posted from the beginning, I've been reading this site from the start. I found all posts and comments to be helpful and although a lot of the info stated this is possibly a long journey, I didn't find that discouraging when I was new to this. I actually found it tobe helpful in realising there was no 'quick fix' to this situation. I felt I needed to be told that it could possibly take years! Possibly with other relationships happening.

Otherwise I think (as friends pointed out that didn't understand) you might expect your spouse to return within a few weeks! Possibly feeling despair when that didn't happen.

I do not (just my view) think it hurts to point out possibly worst case scenarios. Like the saying goes ''expect the worst, and hope for the best'.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, it's just my own thoughts on this, and not giving false hope to newbies by stating how this might possibly play out.

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