[evas]

RCR Note:
I have split this topic from Thundarr's thread because I think it is a great discussion that needs highlighting. I would like to post as well and hope to do that, but today is a holiday and we have plans all day. So I have skimmed the thread to determine which posts to split. I don't know if I should post here or maybe write so, me blog posts or perhaps both--I need to read without skimming first.
Thundarr already started another topic from this post of his, but since this also stems from that, I am including it here and Evas original starting post for this thread follows.

One topic of discussion I want to broach is that on this site we seem to be so MLC-centric that we tend to deal with every situation by the "LBS playbook" and oftentimes almost discourage some newbies it seems by telling them in a roundabout way that it's either hopeless or that they can count on having years of separation and infidelity to look forward to.  But, the truth is that no one here including myself is qualified to diagnose MLC and especially not vicariously through another person's account.  I'm qualified and licensed to diagnose anything in the DSM-IV but would never diagnose someone's spouse based solely on what the person was telling me about them.  It would not only be malpractice but foolishness of the highest order.  And why, you ask?  Because the person closest to someone is NOT a reliable source of information about them in almost all cases.  And the reason for this is that they are the most BIASED.  When we diagnose a child with ADHD for example, we give the parent a rating instrument to gauge their perception of the child's behaviors but we put more weight on the one we give the teacher because of less risk of unaccounted for variables.  Perhaps the child acts up more at home because they are reacting to the parenting style.  I'd like to have a dollar for every parent who has brought their child in for an ADHD diagnosis based on their behavior at home only to hear them report the child is "an angel at school."  Moral of the story is that I have no idea whose spouses here are really in MLC or if any are at all, and I also cannot diagnose my own XW as I'm too biased. 
So, what point am I trying to make?  We should follow the lead of those who have gone before and been successful (just like in anything), but we should also look for real signs and not discount our spouses' behaviors as "cycling" or "Nice Monster" without at least considering following techniques that might work with estranged spouses in "normal situations."  As OP says, "No Expectations" but that should never mean to give up hope or stop trying which is the message I'm afraid some of the newbies might be getting.

I agree with you Thundarr. It's rather amazing how rigid we are in our MLC "guidelines" while knowing just how vague MLC really is. I think all possibilities should be explored. So something didn't work in the first nine cases, but it worked in the tenth? Does that mean it should be deemed "not successful"?

When H came back home last year, I spent a long, long time watching for god only knows what signs, expecting him to pack up and leave any day. I actually prepared myself for that, as I'd been told this was just a touch and go, it was much too soon, it was, basically, "hopeless". So I watched and watched. But there was no contact with OW, there was no depression, H actually seemed relieved and happy (9 months later that is still the case). Of course I didn't buy any of it. I remember one day when I was sitting by the computer and H was sitting in the sofa behind me and we were chatting about something and I just blurted out: "Are you sure you're actually going to stay here?"

Looking back, I do question the rigidity of some advice given here at times, and the sometimes harsh way with which it is being delivered. "Sorry honey but this is going to take a decade to solve". It's not that black and white. Nobody knows for sure how long a midlife crisis takes. Actually, my friend's therapist who believes in MLC and is treating both my friend and her MLC H, rolled her eyes when she heard how long we believe MLC takes here. I wish there were more reconciliation stories coming out of this forum, I'd like to know what worked in those stories, but I think I know why there are so few. People are terrified of calling themselves "reconciled", former LBSers are terrified that if they do, the other shoe will drop, they will be jinxed somehow. Perhaps many who are in "reconnection stage" are actually anxiously awaiting the other shoe to drop. How can a person live like that? How many years do you have to be together again in order to be deemed "reconciled" anyway? Who wants to live life like that? I sure don't.

The truth is there is always hope. If we live as if this is a forever-lasting doom and gloom and misery then that's of course what it will be. But miracles happen all the time. It's a miracle I made it through last year. I'm sure some people here feel it's a miracle they get out of bed some days. Let's focus on that. Let's focus on laughing, on finding joy even during this painful experience. I laughed so much last year, it's amazing really. I thought I should write a book about it: "How I Laughed My Self through My Husband's MLC".

I do believe in detaching. I think detaching is healthy. We sometimes lose sight of who we are as individuals, we get so wrapped up in couplehood and family that we lose sight of ourselves. I am still detached in a good way, I hope. Yes, I am sure there's a part of me that my H will never again have full access to, that's part and parcel of the MLC experience, a battle scar I guess, but perhaps that's not such a bad thing. I am more than a mom, I am more than a wife. Like Sylvia Plath wrote: "I have a self to recover."

[Anjae]

"Sorry honey but this is going to take a decade to solve". It's not that black and white. Nobody knows for sure how long a midlife crisis takes. Actually, my friend's therapist who believes in MLC and is treating both my friend and her MLC H, rolled her eyes when she heard how long we believe MLC takes here.

Don't think anyone says it is going to take a decade to solve. More like, on average, it takes 3-7 years. Average is just that, average. It can be longer, it can be shorter. What we need to remember is that MLC does not start at BD and does not end at Replay. From what I recall it is also said here that a MLC can last until 10 years. Can, not will.

Could you please explain how is your friend who is a therapist treating a man in MLC? Also, how long does your therapist friend thinks MLC lasts? How does she sees the fact that many here have been having spouses in crisis for many years (,3.5, 4,5,6 years and more)? Is she aware many crisis last a long time?

I would love to believe MLC lasts, on average, 6 months to 2 or 2.5 years but that is not what the experience of people in this board, my own, my husband's and the  other people in my real life tell me.

[OldPilot]

This was posted on DB by a friend of mine that has posted here occasionaly and  might be a good explanation, also I would reccomend the Gail Sheehy book Understandings Men's Passages

I think many people have heard about the "7 year itch" and some may understand that people, in their adult lives, go through "transitions" every 7 to 10 years, give or take.  Those transitions can often include re-making themselves, including some behaviours.

That said, once a person makes a lucid choice to become "version 2" of themselves, they are going to stick with it, own it, embrace it...  for likely the next 7 to 10 years...  until their next transition.

If we look at MLC as being a transition, just in crises, the same can hold true.  If someone comes out of transition, or what an LBS and others might think as "stuck" (because they are continuing to be someone that we don't recognize), it holds to reason that it can take 7 to 10 years before they decide, in their next "normal" transition, to return back to a person we more recognize.  At that next transition, they may come to realize what they have done in the past (their behaviour during MLC and "after") was inappropriate.

[Dontgiveup]

This was posted on DB by a friend of mine that has posted here occasionaly and  might be a good explanation, also I would reccomend the Gail Sheehy book Understandings Men's Passages

I think many people have heard about the "7 year itch" and some may understand that people, in their adult lives, go through "transitions" every 7 to 10 years, give or take.  Those transitions can often include re-making themselves, including some behaviours.

That said, once a person makes a lucid choice to become "version 2" of themselves, they are going to stick with it, own it, embrace it...  for likely the next 7 to 10 years...  until their next transition.

If we look at MLC as being a transition, just in crises, the same can hold true.  If someone comes out of transition, or what an LBS and others might think as "stuck" (because they are continuing to be someone that we don't recognize), it holds to reason that it can take 7 to 10 years before they decide, in their next "normal" transition, to return back to a person we more recognize.  At that next transition, they may come to realize what they have done in the past (their behaviour during MLC and "after") was inappropriate.

RCR also has some info about it in the MLC Overview article

Life transitions are isolated periods of qualitative changes in life structure and ego development experienced at varying phases of life by each person; they are also cyclical, occurring every 7-10 years. Transitions become crises when one attempts to avoid the inevitable internal processes of change, growth and aging. There is an increased likelihood that a transition will become a crisis if a person has a history of turmoil and avoidance at previous life transitions. Unresolved issues surface and rebury, only to resurface with additional issues at each growth phase. Greater transforming-avoidance, coupled with the recycled and unresolved issues, yields crises of increasing severity over time. This is why many consider the Midlife Crisis to be the most tumultuous.

[trusting]

RCR also has some info about it in the MLC Overview article

Life transitions are isolated periods of qualitative changes in life structure and ego development experienced at varying phases of life by each person; they are also cyclical, occurring every 7-10 years. Transitions become crises when one attempts to avoid the inevitable internal processes of change, growth and aging. There is an increased likelihood that a transition will become a crisis if a person has a history of turmoil and avoidance at previous life transitions. Unresolved issues surface and rebury, only to resurface with additional issues at each growth phase. Greater transforming-avoidance, coupled with the recycled and unresolved issues, yields crises of increasing severity over time. This is why many consider the Midlife Crisis to be the most tumultuous.

Wow.  I had read that before but forgot about it.  My husband did go through something about seven years before his MLC started where he brought up many of the same issues that I believe are driving his crisis.  He actually acted the same way as he has been in MLC, only much, much milder and it only lasted maybe 3-4 months or so and then he returned to the husband I knew.  It was a rough couple of months for us as a couple.  Interestingly, around the time of BD he referenced that time and said that things he was dealing with had been "swept under the rug" at that time.  Wonder if he realizes he is the one who did the sweeping....

[kikki]

My H too.  About 7 years before BD, my H suffered a much milder version of this crisis - the worst of it lasted around 3-4 months, but the depression around it lasted about 18 months. 

My H too referenced a resurfacing of the same issues, for his reason for having to leave me, at BD. 

[Thundarr]

XW went through a milder version back around 2000 and exhibited many of the same behaviors.  I suspected infidelity back then but she always denied it.  But she did lie to me back then, dress like a teen and suddenly crave the bar scene for the first time.  It was around her 30th birthday now that I think of it as she was born in '70.  Why have I not put this together before now?!?

[evas]

What I meant AnneJ, is that I don't think it's very conducive to greet newcomers this way: "this is going to take a long time, it's not your fault, and therapy doesn't help".

Even though it has been said here that MLC doesn't start at BD, that's where the counting begins (we aren't supposed to count, but of course we all do). And when RCR talks about the average crisis lasting 3-7 years, she means from BD on, I assume. Many of us spent years and years walking on egg shells before BD, which if the crisis lasts say 4-6 years easily can add up to a decade or almost.

I cannot tell you why my friend's therapist believes she can treat my friend's MLC H, I have very limited experience of therapy myself, but both my friend and her H feel that therapy is beneficial for them. Should we not then say that yes, in some cases therapy may work instead of dismissing it altogether?

So it's not our fault that our spouses are in the claws of MLC, but the question is can we prolong it by not moving forwards ourselves? Can we cut down the MLC process by moving on, learning something from this, changing, getting over our anger and fear? If the answer to this question is "yes" then that must also mean that we actually CAN do something, no?

If we just let down our guard a little, open up to other possibilities and ideas then others might feel free to step forward with their reconciliation/reconnection stories and we'd all have a better overview of MLC. It's like cancer patients: Some are helped with chemo, some with radiation, some with a combination of drugs, and some use alternative methods. Why slam one method over another? You believe this, I believe that. Can't we all just agree that we may try different approaches and report back? Wouldn't you be interested in hearing what worked for someone? I know I sure would.

[Thundarr]

Off-topic, but that's the second Kierkegaard quote I've heard today after never having heard of him.  "When you label me you negate me" is the other.  Now that I think of it, it's not really that off-topic at all....

[Stillpraying]

For my exH, He had a transition in his fist marriage I think around the 7 year mark where he gave up drugs and became a Christian.  However, he ended up leaving his wife after 10 years of marriage. 

The depression' in our marriage started at 7 years.  He quit a lot of activities and wanted to move churches and homes.  That was 6 and a half years ago.  BD was 3 and half years ago.  He left us 2 years ago and he is still with OW2.