[Dontgiveup]

What I meant AnneJ, is that I don't think it's very conducive to greet newcomers this way: "this is going to take a long time, it's not your fault, and therapy doesn't help".

I think many who find this site are looking for information, which includes the time frame.  The time frame is hard to wrap a finger around anyway, which may be why RCR writes that most LBS will learn it through experience.

I believe letting the LBS know MLC is not their fault is very important early on.  I've seen LBS who are devastated by the Projection from their MLCer.  RCR addresses this well in the article Midlife Crisis Takes Time.

You are to blame. You were controlling and manipulative, weak, too fat, too skinny, withheld affection, too much public displays of affection, worked too much, didn't work enough, used sex as a negotiating tool, forgot to floss on the second Tuesday after your wedding...

Though no one is perfect, in the beginning you will search your own behaviour for what went wrong. Since the MLCer often offers a long list of your transgressions, it is not a difficult search. In the beginning, many LBS's accept this blame, using it as the excuse for the bad marriage. For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis.

There are two different things to consider with therapy.  Many LBS seek therapy and are encouraged to do so.  It's marriage counseling that is rarely beneficial......and there are specific reasons for this.  MLCers avoid and deny.  MLC is not a time when the MLCer is going to put forth the effort to work on the marriage.....they are doing just the opposite.....the MLCer is abandoning.


I cannot tell you why my friend's therapist believes she can treat my friend's MLC H, I have very limited experience of therapy myself, but both my friend and her H feel that therapy is beneficial for them. Should we not then say that yes, in some cases therapy may work instead of dismissing it altogether?

They should be in therapy.  Both are willing.  If he's in MLC, that may not last.  See comments above about MLCers and marriage counseling.

[Anjae]

What I meant AnneJ, is that I don't think it's very conducive to greet newcomers this way: "this is going to take a long time, it's not your fault, and therapy doesn't help".

Well, we can't say, it is fine, it will go away in 3 weeks of 6 months. We use the averages. And I think it is better to say to be prepared for a long time, and then it be a short time, than the other way round. What would happen if we would say "It is a short term situation" and years went by and the person remained in MLC?

It is not the LBS fault. Why should we say it is?

As for therapy not working, when people here that go to therapy, tell on the board it is only making it worst, yes, we say that, normally, it does not work for MLC. That is the experience most have. And several have tried to go into therapy with their MLCer.

If therapy is helping your friend and her husband, that is good. it may be working because he is on a latter stage, has a less acute MLC, or any other thing we are not aware of. But the experience most here have in therapy with MLCers was not good.

Yes, we can prolong it by not moving forward. But it is hard to say with which MLCers that would work or not. I've moved froward, my husband remains in MLC. In fact, with him, I think it is the opposite. Since I made myself unavailable and he is, by nature, a clinger, that prolonged his crisis. But it was impossible to remain closer. If I had, I had not moved forward and would be enabling him to cake eat and live between me and OW.

Getting over our anger and fear is important for us but does not seem to be enough to cut down anyone MLC. Do what? If we try to reach out to the MLCer we will be meet with anger, monster and rejected. If we allow the MLCer to swing between us and OW, the crisis will go on. Not sure what we should  that we're nopt doing since everyone here has tried different things and none seems to have worked.

Unless an MLCer accepts to go see a doctor or therapist and his willing to work on his/her issues, there seems to be little we can do for them. Some MLCers seem to get very scared if the LBS remarried or has a new partner (that is the reason why my husband drgas the divorce, he knows I will remarry). In a way, he is also prolonging his crisis by not let me be free to remarry but he does not know it.

Evas, reconciliation/reconnection stories are one thing, the deep of Replay another. In reconciliation/reconnection's therapy and other things that don't work in Replay can work. But in Replay, with someone that is living with OW/OM (or married to them), does not have contact with us, how are we going to work on something that, currently, does not exist? His your friend's husband a high replay MLCer on the depths of Replay? His he on the beginning of his crisis? His he past replay? Where he is on his crisis may explain why therapy is working. As for curing his MLC... well, that require that MLC is seen as a disorder. Something I think it is but RCR, for exemple, does not.

If you have ever read my threads you will know that I think MLC can be mitigated with treamtement but that it would only work if we had managed to have the MLCer go to a doctor in the begining of the crisis and remained in the course that course of action. I think MLC has neurohormonal causes, with a little of past issues on the mix. Many here believe it is mainly a development issue.

Stiil, if you have any idea how do I make my husband to come out of replay, please let me know. So far I've found none except let replay end and then see what happens. And I think the same goes for the husband's and wives's of most of us. What should we do to bring them out of Replay? How can you help someone that does not want help? Do you go over to where they live with other person and drag them to a doctor/therapist?... Many of us didn't even to manage to do that before they left, let alone with them in Replay...

But I'm interested in hearing what worked for others (don't remember ever said I was not and if there is one thing we do here is read/listen to others). However we don't seem to have those many different stories or results with different ways. Not with severe MLC at least.

My cousin had MLC and it was different, and milder, than most of our MLCer but it still come down to him had reached a point when he hit rock bottom and, from then on, allowed for help. Until that point he either would go to therapy and bail out on second appointment, or would monster at us and his partner. He never listened to us or therapists.

Sorry, I don't understand what many had spend years and years walking on eggshells before BD has to do with MLC. Does that mean the spouse of those people was already in MLC for many years before BD or that the marriage had issues that have nothing to do with MLC?...

Could it be that what the therapist who is helping your friend and her husband labels MLC is, in fact, midlife transition? There are many sites and articles that talk about MLC and say the person suffering from it had an affair, went to therapy and is working on the marriage but those articles and sites don't seem to be talking about the same things we deal with here.

As for the length of MLC, for me, the full length is full length, from before BD to the end of rebirth. RCR says on average a MLC starts 12-36 month before BD. Again, we are talking on average. It could be shorter, it could be longer.

I'm sorry but I really don't understand why, all of a sudden, there is a concern we tell newbies that it will take time, that infidelity will most likely happen (if it already hasn't) and that, normally, therapy does not work. That is all on the articles, blog posts, info, coaching offered here. It is not like we have decided to start have new rules of our own.
 
I don't remember if anything happened to Mr J 7 years before BD. He have had 2 depression due to exhaustion before MLC (no longer remember exactly when) but they were normal depressions, no signs of Replay. He would be "dead", with no energy, depressed, only wanting to stay home.

[evas]

Oh dear... I did not say it's the LBSer's fault that his or her spouse goes into MLC. But from my own experience (which I hope will count for something?) I can say that for years I kept reacting the same way towards H and his depression and nothing changed. Absolutely NOTHING. It wasn't until I changed that also his pattern changed. Is it fair that I, as the LBSer, should have to change? No. Is life fair? No.

Earlier on, I wrote about the harsh way with which some comments are delivered. A prime example would be this:
They should be in therapy.  Both are willing.  If he's in MLC, that may not last.  See comments above about MLCers and marriage counseling.
Do you see yourself how you (almost) dismiss therapy, since her H is in MLC it  may not last? I'm all for reading RCR's valuable comments, but as I said before there are OTHER views, ideas, and thoughts out there that we ought to be open for to explore and pass on as information. I'd say don't let us become so negative and "sure". We, this forum as a collective, and RCR do not have patent on MLC nor do we know everything that is to know.

I'll say it again, although I have a feeling it won't be heard: MAYBE, just MAYBE there are solutions that work in SOME cases. And MAYBE just MAYBE we should pass on this information to others before dismissing it altogether? As Marcus Aurelius said: "Because a thing seems difficult for you, do not think it impossible for anyone to accomplish."

[forthetrees]

I think as a forum we have already acknowledged that there are different patterns by starting the vanisher, clinger, boomerang designations. We already accept that not all of us will travel the same path. Some of us turn to faith and some of us to meditation. Some of us have opted for anti-depressants, some of us not. I don´t think that the vast majority of posters is trying to slam a newbie. I do think it is a kindness to forewarn a newbie even if he or she is not ready to hear it. When I arrived here, I was shocked to read of a two year time span and shocked to read of infidelity- even though I had already caught h signing up for match.com and his friend was helping him with a dating profile. It´s just so very hard to digest that your special someone has altered so drastically. I think the first year is just taking all that in as it seems surreal. This site IS supportive. I think that Thundarr, despite your/his therapy background, is so close to his own situation- obviously, that he wants daily reassurance that his xw will pull out of this. Accepting the unknown takes a long time. T, when you really start working on YOURSELF and stop focussing on your xw, you will realize that with or without, her the future is unknown and that every day is a gift. Fear is keeping you from being all that you can be. From reading your posts, I DO think your w will pull out of it and try to reconcile, just one observer´s opinion. So, in the meantime, what will you do with the time?

[evas]

I'm not talking about what we as LBSers do for ourselves, like turn to meditation, practice our faith etc, I'm talking about POSSIBLE solutions to shorten or help our MLCer move out out of MLC sooner rather than later. I'm talking about something that we often consider "impossible", because I don't think it is.

I am going to go out on a limb here by challenging "validation". Let's look at what RCR writes about it:

Though you cannot fix your MLCer, you are not incapable of providing help--by accepting and validating his choices. I'm sorry you feel...

life is hopeless
you do not love me
I was an awful wife
you deserve better
you are not worthy
this new person is your soul mate
you are never coming home
you hate me...
By not validating, your MLCer feels you are not listening or taking him seriously; to dismiss his feelings is to also be dismissive of him--and that is insulting.

This is how I (before I even came to this site, and before I had even heard of MLC the way we talk about it here) responded to my H for a very long time, many years actually. It wasn't until I STOPPED validating/accepting his feelings that I noticed a change in him. Saying "I'm sorry you feel I was an awful wife" (for instance, which I am sure I did or some echo of it) is actually a LIE coming from me, either a lie or a form of sarcasm, as I don't at all feel sorry that my H believes I was an awful wife. I feel it's a bunch of crap. It wasn't until I stopped this, stopped what my H perceived as sarcasm, stopped validating, stopped "accepting" how he feels, stopped babying him, stopped also "paving the way", that I noticed a change. Actually I stopped communicating with my H altogether other than the very basics. It was then that he realized that he could NOT HURT me, which was part of the "fun" for him. To bait me, to see how I'd respond: Would I bark, would I roll over, what would I do? Or would I, his highest hope, go under knowing that he had met a younger woman?

And saying things like "I don't want a divorce", well, in my case I just KNOW it would have given my H a longer MLC leash. In his eyes it would have made his MLC behavior perfectly legit. Though it wasn't my intention, I did hand H a "deadline", an ultimatum of sorts, because I needed to leave the country. Without him, I couldn't afford to stay with my son in the US. I didn't say: "If you don't come back, I will have to relocate." I said: "I need to move, we can figure out a way for you and S to keep in touch and visit." That's when H realized he couldn't behave like a teenager anymore. I know, I know, in MANY of the situations here it doesn't work that way. But in mine it did, and so I say there might be other cases in which it MAY work as well.

My H was (is?) a Boomerang with slightly "clinging" tendencies. I often felt that if it weren't for our son, he'd be a vanisher.

[forthetrees]

Evas,
You can´t help a vanisher in any sort of way. Pretty much any contact initiated by the LBS is rebuffed. My h vanished from the lives of every person we knew in common. I know nothing of his life or state of mind. In my sitch, it´s effed up if you abandon and won´t sign the d papers, ignore a prenup and sue LBS but won´t request a court date. Sure, I hope he finds his way. I just know that our paths will not cross down the road, though that IS what I was desperately hoping to happen for 1.5+ years. Love does need to be nurtured. We LBS are strong, but we also need to be cared about.

One out of five adolescents has mental illness. I doubt that they all grow out of it. Perhaps many of us married the twenty percent.
Love does not cure mental illness. The longer the MLCer goes without intervention- CBT for example, the more distortion that occurs to his or her brain. Without seeking help, I don´t see how they arrest the brain changes due to depression.

Is there hope? Yes, there is always hope that an abandoner will realize how much he/she was loved and after self-reflection will realize that the majority of the issues were internal and influenced by FOO. It takes a strong character to look that deeply and these folks are emotionally weakened.

[evas]

I'm beginning to think I cannot make myself clear at all.

1. I am not saying that every MLCer can be helped. I am saying some MAY be helped.
2. I am not saying love can cure mental illness.

What I AM saying is this: There ARE ways to help SOME MLCers come out quicker from their tunnels. And I feel that that's something pretty much deemed impossible here.

My H has enormous FOO issues. He was sexually abused on a regular basis as a child, and when his family found out they just shrugged their shoulders.

[kikki]

Evas, I agree with you.  I believe some may be helped to exit the tunnel sooner.

The reason I believe that, is because of my H's earlier, much milder version of crisis (although I wouldn't have called it that at the time).  Same behaviours, same detach, long distance emotional affair - he swears to this day that it wasn't a PA, but given what I know now - I have to wonder.  And because he refused to go to therapy, and I didn't insist (my mistake) - I believe this landed us all in his second, far more severe bout of crisis now.

I had quite a lot of influence last time.  I felt as though I could punt him around the pool table, and steer his course to some extent.  Not all things worked, but I kept trying until something did.
This time - no hope of that.  He is way too far gone and 'out of it'.

I have witnessed and believe these things to be on a spectrum.  Some will be near the mild end, and some near the more severe end. 

[toughtimes]

Saying "I'm sorry you feel I was an awful wife" (for instance, which I am sure I did or some echo of it) is actually a LIE coming from me, either a lie or a form of sarcasm, as I don't at all feel sorry that my H believes I was an awful wife. I feel it's a bunch of crap. It wasn't until I stopped this, stopped what my H perceived as sarcasm, stopped validating, stopped "accepting" how he feels, stopped babying him, stopped also "paving the way", that I noticed a change. Actually I stopped communicating with my H altogether other than the very basics. It was then that he realized that he could NOT HURT me, which was part of the "fun" for him. To bait me, to see how I'd respond: Would I bark, would I roll over, what would I do? Or would I, his highest hope, go under knowing that he had met a younger woman?

Just chiming in here too to say that this has been on my mind an awful lot. I find it very difficult to validate lies. I almost physically cannot do it, I have managed to say "I'm sorry ..." and tried to continue but lost my words. I don't want my H to feel $hit because he isn't being heard but I also don't want to feel $hit by saying what he is saying is okay. It's so hard. My H doesn't feel heard by anyone who loves him only people who agree with him. If I agree with him I am listening, if I don't agree and offer a different opinion, I am not listening. I guess this is where validating comes in .... it is very difficult but I guess when we are dealing with feelings then they are true for that person.

Evas, I agree with you.  I believe some may be helped to exit the tunnel sooner.

The reason I believe that, is because of my H's earlier, much milder version of crisis (although I wouldn't have called it that at the time).  Same behaviours, same detach, long distance emotional affair - he swears to this day that it wasn't a PA, but given what I know now - I have to wonder.  And because he refused to go to therapy, and I didn't insist (my mistake) - I believe this landed us all in his second, far more severe bout of crisis now.

I had quite a lot of influence last time.  I felt as though I could punt him around the pool table, and steer his course to some extent.  Not all things worked, but I kept trying until something did.
This time - no hope of that.  He is way too far gone and 'out of it'.

I have witnessed and believe these things to be on a spectrum.  Some will be near the mild end, and some near the more severe end. 

I think I was in a similar boat Kikki, November 2010 and H said he couldn't be with me anymore etc. It was very intense speech. We said we would try, would work on things. He was open to any ideas. I had a 6 month old baby and felt gutted. I didn't know what to do and I felt hurt and sank into a depression. When he left 18 months later he said he had warned me this would happen. If only I had know about midlife transition and midlife crisis. I think I would have been SOOOOOOO much more understanding about his changes and his needs and desires. That book "This is not the story you think it is ..... " forgotten the author's name, really shows how through her understanding of her Hs transition and though her own self development she averted a full blown abandonment and crisis.

I had therapy and the therapist basically told me that I was in an emotionally abusive R. If she had some understanding of MLC and could suggest this was a possibility it would have helped. She didn't know it I guess. She suggested I get a lawyer!

[evas]

Exactly Kikki! You hit the nail. Thank you.

And in my case, I think that if I had STOPPED my validation of my H's early signs of MLC (again I did not think MLC at the time) I firmly believe I would have been able to PREVENT his full-blown MLC with OW, Monster, and moving out and all the other things that happened last year. And this is where this site comes in: A newbie arrives and gives us his or her story and right away we give the SAME advice to EVERYONE. Right away we PRESUME that there's NO WAY the LBSer can do ANYTHING to shorten her partner's MLC. It's the rigidity of that advice that makes me wonder.

In my case there's no way I can use therapy. We have no insurance and it's far too costly to pay out of pocket. Thus I have to do the major work myself. Also H. And he is really trying. We have a good life together now.

Thundarr, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. Let me know, and I'll take this over to my own thread.