[Thundarr]

No hijacks on my threads ever, Evas, and this is EXACTLY what I wanted to happen.  A sharing of perspectives and ideas from extremely intelligent individuals that hopefully helps to move us as a community one step closer to the goal of finding the answers to salvaging marriages and relationships with as little suffering as possible.  RCR herself has said it before (and most recently on the Discussion thread I started) that none of us know all the answers and all situations are different.  We should not try to shoe-horn every poster that shows up here into the same boat and risk discouraging newbies who may still have a chance to do the things that will save their marriages.  THAT is what I meant by the LBS Playbook needing to be updated/ revised!!  I think we veterans tend to get very cynical over time, and who would argue that we don't have valid reasons to?  We see hundreds of stories similar to our own with spouses behaving badly, committing infidelity, abandoning their children and destroying their finances all in the search for "happiness."  But, as someone said earlier just because something is true 99 times it DOES NOT mean it will be true the 100th time.  We have to be flexible and accommodating, not rigid and divisive.  And that's coming from a conservative Republican!! (right, Mamma Bear? lol).

[DCD]

I'm not talking about what we as LBSers do for ourselves, like turn to meditation, practice our faith etc, I'm talking about POSSIBLE solutions to shorten or help our MLCer move out out of MLC sooner rather than later. I'm talking about something that we often consider "impossible", because I don't think it is.

I am going to go out on a limb here by challenging "validation". Let's look at what RCR writes about it:

Though you cannot fix your MLCer, you are not incapable of providing help--by accepting and validating his choices. I'm sorry you feel...

life is hopeless
you do not love me
I was an awful wife
you deserve better
you are not worthy
this new person is your soul mate
you are never coming home
you hate me...
By not validating, your MLCer feels you are not listening or taking him seriously; to dismiss his feelings is to also be dismissive of him--and that is insulting.

This is how I (before I even came to this site, and before I had even heard of MLC the way we talk about it here) responded to my H for a very long time, many years actually. It wasn't until I STOPPED validating/accepting his feelings that I noticed a change in him. Saying "I'm sorry you feel I was an awful wife" (for instance, which I am sure I did or some echo of it) is actually a LIE coming from me, either a lie or a form of sarcasm, as I don't at all feel sorry that my H believes I was an awful wife. I feel it's a bunch of crap. It wasn't until I stopped this, stopped what my H perceived as sarcasm, stopped validating, stopped "accepting" how he feels, stopped babying him, stopped also "paving the way", that I noticed a change. Actually I stopped communicating with my H altogether other than the very basics. It was then that he realized that he could NOT HURT me, which was part of the "fun" for him. To bait me, to see how I'd respond: Would I bark, would I roll over, what would I do? Or would I, his highest hope, go under knowing that he had met a younger woman?

And saying things like "I don't want a divorce", well, in my case I just KNOW it would have given my H a longer MLC leash. In his eyes it would have made his MLC behavior perfectly legit. Though it wasn't my intention, I did hand H a "deadline", an ultimatum of sorts, because I needed to leave the country. Without him, I couldn't afford to stay with my son in the US. I didn't say: "If you don't come back, I will have to relocate." I said: "I need to move, we can figure out a way for you and S to keep in touch and visit." That's when H realized he couldn't behave like a teenager anymore. I know, I know, in MANY of the situations here it doesn't work that way. But in mine it did, and so I say there might be other cases in which it MAY work as well.

My H was (is?) a Boomerang with slightly "clinging" tendencies. I often felt that if it weren't for our son, he'd be a vanisher.

Eva's - I also agree and very much see this in my situation. While we are not on the road to reconciliation, I've noticed a big change in husband's actions and behaviour towards me since I've changed the manner in which I engage him...which has been to completely disengage him on all matters that don't have to do directly with our son. Past attempts to "pave the way" and validate his feelings seemed to give him the gas he needed to ramp up the replay behaviours.  He was as his angriest when I engaged him and the urge to "stick it to me" at its greatest.

At this point, I have no urge at all to share anything in my life with him and I really don't care to know what he's up to. At times, he will try to provoke me with actions and veiled threats, which I ignore (actions) and "agree with" (threats I.e. sep agreement "ok, let me know how you'd like to proceed with this" or selling our home "ok, I've been working on a list of things we need to have done to the house to prepare for the sale"), but this has lessened (he has signed off on something this past week that tells me that he sees son and me in this house for another year) and acts of service and gifts (his love languages) are again on the increase. While I validated, these actions and threats happened more frequently but since I've stopped, I find he's calmer, clearer, less intense and "dead" although he'll still find something to pick at (lately Pinterest and FB posts that he takes personally...he really can twist anything and make it all about him) and I respond in my disengaged way and he quickly runs out of gas. I've completely closed off my FB since and changed Pinterest accounts to one he won't be able to find, so I can't imagine what he'll come up with next.

Sorry for the hijack - I've gone on and on just to say that validation and paving the way were not tools that served me very well - polite detachment while putting mine and son's interests first always has been key.  Thank you, Eva's, for your insight.

[Dontgiveup]

Since there are those who read not as familiar with RCR's articles, I thought it might be helpful to post a couple of things from the articles for information in the discussion.

From Midlife Crisis Takes Time
Prevention

"What can I do to prevent...?"
 "...all else has failed."
 This is a common question from a Beginner. It is often asked by an LBS who has not yet read MLC books and resources or had other feedback, or by an LBS who has not accepted or believed the books, resources, stories and feedback. Just as with MLC, Acceptance of the processes of MLC takes TIME.

There is no failure; there is also no prevention. There is impatience and the inability to accept the process of MLC. Regardless of what is healthiest, of what is best, of what you or anyone wants--MLCer included--a Midlife Crisis cannot be prevented. It can be prolonged by an unaccepting LBS. Acceptance can ease it. But once it has begun, the crisis must continue to completion; it is a journey to go through, not get over.

From A Midlife Metaphor
The danger is from those who do not understand and are thus unaccepting of this natural state and seek to fix the problem, through pharmaceuticals or simply denial and unacceptance of observers who yank the midlifer all the way out of the labyrinth. The midlifer thus returns to society with no skin. A vital part of himself remains in the labyrinth and the only way to retrieve it is to enter from the beginning and follow it through to the end.

[evas]

DGU,
You fail to see my point. You quote from RCR, and the views accepted and believed here - but I say let's look at OTHER ideas and thoughts.

Can a mid-life crisis be prevented? A quick google led me to a study by Joel R. Sneed of the Dept of Psychiatry at Columbia Uni. According to him it is possible. I also found "10 Things You Can Do to Prevent a Mid-Life Crisis". I have not read it in-depth, I just googled it now, to show you and everyone else that there are other ideas and thoughts out there. And what if it can help someone here? Wouldn't that be great?

Instead of repeating the advice here, which we all can access and which has been helpful to a lot of people (including me), I say let's do more by branching out and looking at alternatives AS WELL. Again, let's not be so rigid.

[Ready2Transform]

Evas, I hear you too and agree a lot.  What you are saying does not negate RCR's perspective, it is just the wise suggestion that we take it as the inspiration it is, and just as RCR did, we all find our own way.  Being open to discuss what has created change in each of our lives should not throw newbies off track, but give them more power to heal their own lives.

The consistencies I've noticed across the board for reconnections, no matter what the contact type or energy level of the MLCer are:

The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome


There is no technique, tactic, or formula more potent than strength and honesty.  It's unrealistic to say we do not affect them at all - we are the most important relationship of their adult life, no matter what the outcome.  But underlying everything, I have seen from all of your examples that if I know who I am, if I know what I believe, and if I let that be my voice - not my husband, an expert, or even family and friends, as well meaning as they are - what others refer to as miracles will happen in my life.  I believe that is the magic of our community, and if anything is to be stressed to newbies, that is it. 

[Thundarr]

Where is that blasted "LIKE" button when you need it?  An excellent discussion today!!!

[toughtimes]

The consistencies I've noticed across the board for reconnections, no matter what the contact type or energy level of the MLCer are:

The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome


There is no technique, tactic, or formula more potent than strength and honesty.  It's unrealistic to say we do not affect them at all - we are the most important relationship of their adult life, no matter what the outcome.  But underlying everything, I have seen from all of your examples that if I know who I am, if I know what I believe, and if I let that be my voice - not my husband, an expert, or even family and friends, as well meaning as they are - what others refer to as miracles will happen in my life.  I believe that is the magic of our community, and if anything is to be stressed to newbies, that is it.

Copied and pasted this and put it in my notebook! So true.

[OldPilot]

http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/healthy-identity-intimacy-prevents-mid-life-crisis-0106112/

Is it possible to avoid a mid-life crisis? According to a recent study led by Joel R. Sneed of the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University, it is possible. Identity formation is an essential part of adolescence. Many studies have examined the impact of healthy identity formation on adulthood. But few studies have examined how identity formation throughout adulthood affected well-being in mid-life. “Identity develops as individuals transition into adult roles, such as gainful employment, committed partnerships, and parenting,” said Sneed. “Identity can be developed either through thoughtful consideration of alternative options, or through internalizing ideals espoused by others. In either case, a strong sense of identity appears to facilitate well-being and satisfying committed relationships in adulthood.”

www.sethschwartz.info/pdfs/Racial_Ethnic_Identity_Paper.pdf‎

[Still Kicking]

  While I was writing away, people said it better and more efficiently so I will just leave in a few things from the new person perspective.  I  have never taken the RCR articles to be absolutes but more observations of what has worked and an ongoing study of this crisis in order to help people have the tools to survive.  Many times the articles even pose questions for thought rather than proclaim any answers.  But sometimes, like Evas says, the advice given by others may use the information as if it is an absolute.

The main problem I would see is that there are many different types of situations and many degrees of crisis and there are complications of concurrent medical problems,  mental illness or personality disorders with some.  So in some cases there really may not be anything even the most perfect person could have done to change things.  On the other hand, I think that in a mild crisis there may be ways to act that don't drive the person farther away than they might have gone if a person hadn't gone berserk all over them--yet we do tread lightly discussing that for fear of hurting people's feelings who got dealt a different set of cards.  I have met too many people lately who regretted their decision to leave (even proclaiming it on their deathbed) yet felt forced to stay on the road they took as it seemed to be accepted that once something like this happened there was no way back.  So I think that Paving the Way is an important concept.

I think it is also clear that RCR did different things at different stages.  She did pave the way but she also let loose with the truth darts and put the fear of loss into him later.   Some things may not be effective at different stages which is why we might think some things don't work.   Few of us have the ability to know exactly what is best to do when.  It is a lot of trial and error.  I think that is allowed for on this site as some of the advice has been if something isn't working try the opposite.  I don't think Evas did things radically different from the advice on here so much as she tweaked it to fit her situation.

But I do hear what Evas is saying.  I find myself not responding favorably to what could be attempts at re-connection because  all advice tells me that it can't be that as it is too soon.  I do get that you can respond but with no expectations and  I do acknowledge kindness with appreciation or kindness back.   But sometimes he brings up things that seem to be openers to discuss what has happened and I ignore them thinking it would be pressure to discuss the relationship.   Of course part of that is my own avoidance due to not feeling ready myself.   But I do see him pulling away right now after a period of being very nice, either because I'm not responding as he likes or because he was going to cycle away again anyway.  It is enough for me to wonder if it is just the crisis or my behavior.   On the other hand nothing I have done has stopped the crisis.  It has just mometarily modified the speed and distance of the run a bit. 

What Ready to Transform observed is what I saw early on while lurking.  While there is no guarantee of success, the people who did succeed did the things she mentioned.  And if it didn't result in re-connection they still came out ahead in rebuilding their life.   That is what helped me to respond to this situation in the opposite way to how I have reacted to every other break up in my life.  I saw the truth in it.   I did it at first to get him back and later it evolved into doing it for me but it got me through.  Detaching and getting a life are the most valuable survival tools for the person who is left behind--whether by MLC or just plain break up/adultry.   So in some ways it doesn't matter if there is a wrong "diagnosis" on the part of an advice giver--the treatment is still sound.   

This is too long as usual.  It also sounds way too calm so excuse me while I go get momentarily distraught over his latest statement that he doesn't need any friends because he has himself.   Never mind, I'm better.

[trusting]

I think maybe in the case of a midlife transition rather than a full blown crisis, it would be possible to steer them away from total disaster.  They would probably be much more open to getting help or working with the spouse through their issues.  It seems though that once a full blown crisis gets ahold of them then it just kind of has to run its course.  Just an observation. 

But I do hear what Evas is saying.  I find myself not responding favorably to what could be attempts at re-connection because  all advice tells me that it can't be that as it is too soon.  I do get that you can respond but with no expectations and  I do acknowledge kindness with appreciation or kindness back.   But sometimes he brings up things that seem to be openers to discuss what has happened and I ignore them thinking it would be pressure to discuss the relationship.   Of course part of that is my own avoidance due to not feeling ready myself.   But I do see him pulling away right now after a period of being very nice, either because I'm not responding as he likes or because he was going to cycle away again anyway.  It is enough for me to wonder if it is just the crisis or my behavior.   On the other hand nothing I have done has stopped the crisis.  It has just mometarily modified the speed and distance of the run a bit. 

Stillkicking, to me it sounds like these may be touch and goes rather than true reconnection attempts.  Hindsight is 20/20 and this seems to be true with MLC as well.  I think we often don't realize that they are truly reconnecting until we see consistent, positive movement forward for an extended period of time (i.e. months) and we look back and realize that any changes seem to have "stuck".  Just my 0.02.