[toughtimes]

How do we recognise a touch and go? I haven't seen any from my H, he has gone and gone! He is here for the children and is quite nice sometimes and others he ignores me or seems grumpy with me and lovely to the kids.

Not sure if I have noticed a touch and go or not. My H is well and truly in love with ow and making a life with her and their business. But then for many months I didn't recognise monster as monster, I hadn't realised that the monster spew I was having slung at me was actually monster spew! I am a slow learner 

[Anjae]

Evas, in the articles and blogs posts the LBS it is advised to do a 180, that is to change our approach to the MLCer. The LBS is also encouraged to work on itself.

As for things like “10 Things You Can Do to Prevent a Mid-Life Crisis”, they are normally addressed to a person in midlife who could, possible, have a MLC. If you know any one to be MLCer who would know they are going to be an MLCer, please let me know. All the things I’ve found that claim to be able to prevent, or “cure” MLC are the type of simplistic articles that really don’t have a clue about what a real MLC is.

In that type of articles it is also often common to mistake a Midlife Transition, especially a serious, one, with a MLC.

Joel R. Sneed study say “may” not will. May was what DGU used for MC not working in MLC. He used “may not last” Not “will not last”. And you become upset with it.

And a sample of “182 adults ranging in age between 20 and 54” is a fairly short one. We have more people here than he used on his study. His study also says this “To the extent to which individuals in their 40s continue to maintain a positive and coherent sense of who they are and where their lives are going, they are likely to continue to enjoy warm and intimate relationships in their 50s.” Again, likely, not for sure. Also, we have MLCers whose crisis start way before they were on their 40’s, many whose 40’s were fine and, yet, MLC happened.

More from his article: “Because the so-called ‘midlife crisis’ is essentially a revisiting of identity issues in the 40s and 50s, resolving these identity issues in a coherent and positive way appears to facilitate satisfaction with work, family, and life in general.” There is also this. “the so-called MLC” (one more person that really does not believe in it) and is using 40’s and 50’s. We have people on their 30’s and past their 50’s having MLC.

But Sneed is not talking about ways of dealing with an already existing MLC, he is talking about things that may prevent one from happening in the future. He offers no advice, cures or solutions for an ongoing one. No one that I know, except for this board, does. And not even here there are cures or solutions, only advice (probably because the first two don't exist. Yet) And in these board we do not all have the same views of what mainly causes a MLC.

As far as I’m concerned, MLC is far more than identity issues. It has a neurochemical and hormonal component. Since it has a big neurochemical and hormonal component it should be possivle to mitigate it. Sneed follows RCR, Conway and others that think it is more an identity and development crisis. He does not even move away from that path, nothing new in what he says. He sticks to the normal “identity/development” issues thing, and talks about how if those were well addresses during teenage years and adulthood a MLC may be avoided. MAY, not WILL. Not a word of how MLC has other factors associated to it. A view I consider narrow minded.

Regarding the neurochemical and hormonal side of the crisis, I think if our MLCers were tested, both for blood and brain chemicals, and doctors had any knowledge of what a real MLC is and that it is also associated with imbalances in those things, it would be possible to mitigate it. Of course that would require that, on a very early stage of MLC, someone would have been able to identify it. Since they are on the loose and if they do not accept to be treated I really don’t see much that can be done.

Mr J knew he was depressed before he left. The doctor from the company he worked for and the GM both diagnosed him with depression. Unlike the two previous times he had been depressed, this time he refused help. He also called me (I was already back home) in May 2007, crying, saying he was depressed and needed help. I offer to go the capital, take him to a doctor, or bring him back home to MIL or SIL. Or to ask SIL to do it. He refused. SIL, me and the doctor from the company Mr J worked for, have also insested, since 2005, for Mr J to do thyroid tests. SIL and MIL suffered from hyperthyroidism and they were worried Mr J would suffer as well. Hyperthyroidism provokes many things, among them, depression, lack of sleep, excessive energy, anger.

Since Mr J refused to be tested, to be medicated to depression, to accept any sort of medical help, what do you think it could have been done differently? Two doctos, me, SIL, Mr J best friend, we all tried, none of had any luck. 

As for divorce, yes, I think if we had divorced sooner his crisis would be shorter but he is the one who has been dragging the divorce, not me. So, again, what do you suggest? In the beginning, when I did not want a divorce, the crisis carried on, when I want a divorce (since April 2008) the crisis carried on.

Could you please list what ways could help and MLCer coming out of their tunnel fast? Ways that work for most, not for your husband. You said that would have that thing of thinking you had been a bad wife and so on and if you had not, it may had helped your husband. I never had any of it. It did not helped Mr J.

You’re wrong, ways of helping an MLCer coming out of the tunnel faster are not deemed impossible here. We often talk about how divorce the MLCer or remove ourselves from their way may help them to cross their tunnel fast. Still, those things don’t work with all MLCers. And even when they do, the crisis lasts, on average, several years.

But Kikki, a LBS (or even an MLCer) is not aware that an early depression, or a peculiar episode, will, years latter, turn into MLC. It may or it may not. Also, you could have went to therapy with Mr Bursty. It may, or may have not prevented his crisis. But, again, like Sneed article, those are things that may had worked many years before the actual crisis come on. With them in crisis, what do we do speed them on the tunnel, apart from the things we have always talked about here in the baord?

As you  guys know I’ve been stuying neuroscience, genetic and going back to Jungian archetypes and other archetypes. So far I have not come across anything that would reduce tunnel time, except if the MCLer would go see a doctor (to be tested for blood and brain chemical levels) and followed the plan the doctor established. But how do we take the MLCer that is the middle of Replay to the doctor?

Well, we could do like with schizophrenics. When they have severe episodes, nurses can be called and they are given a shot, normally of risperidone. 

Paving the way sometimes does seem to backfire. I’m more in favour of us to be kind to the MLCer but not to care much about paving the way. At least not in the beginning. It can confuse the LBS and we may be too worried if we are messing up and doing things that will make us loose the MLCer.

“The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome”

Yes, very much so, Ready2. But I’ve been doing/having that for years. Where is my husband?   And if there is one thing I’ve always done was speak freely with my MLCer, not caring about the outcome. I'm known to throw truth arrows and not care about it. Truth arrows, not insult or be unkind.

Since I’ve done all the change I could, I must, therefore, conclude that Mr J is a lost case. Or is he not?...

Evas, and you do fail to see that things like “ways of preventing MLC” are for inform people, who are not suffering of MLC, of things they could do to prevent a future one. They are not for people in the depths of a MLC, nor for the LBS of such people. Again, the words used on those articles tend to be may not will. You could do all those things and still have a MLC. What then? How would one deal with the crisis in itself? And you are assuming we're not familiar with the articles you have been coming across on google. But several of us are.

Thundarr, you’re a therapist, is there anything you could do to make your wife come out of the tunnel faster? Is there are advice, other than the one we give, that you would give us if we were to see you as patients? What would you tell us to do? How would you approach the person deep in the tunnel? What line of action would you give them? Would they be likely to follow it or not?

TT, most os us, if not all, would not recognise our spouse has having a MLC. It is only in hindsight we manage to get it. And, of course, from then on we’re able to recognise it in others.

[Still Kicking]

"Reconnection" was a poor choice of words as I didn't mean it as it relates to the stages.  I just meant he could be reaching out in a way and I was ignoring him. 

[Ready2Transform]

“The LBS becomes confident in themselves
The LBS sheds any condependent tendencies
The LBS finds strength in their intuition
The LBS finds the strength to speak freely in their own power to the MLCer, unaffected by any potential outcome”

Yes, very much so, Ready2. But I’ve been doing/having that for years. Where is my husband?   And if there is one thing I’ve always done was speak freely with my MLCer, not caring about the outcome. I'm known to throw truth arrows and not care about it. Truth arrows, not insult or be unkind.

Those are observable consistencies, not tactics or techniques.   I believe getting to this point will (and has) created miracles in my life - none of them to date include my husband.

[kikki]

But Kikki, a LBS (or even an MLCer) is not aware that an early depression, or a peculiar episode, will, years latter, turn into MLC. It may or it may not. Also, you could have went to therapy with Mr Bursty. It may, or may have not prevented his crisis. But, again, like Sneed article, those are things that may had worked many years before the actual crisis come on. With them in crisis, what do we do speed them on the tunnel, apart from the things we have always talked about here in the baord?

Very true Anne.  I guess I just look back on that time and wish that I had insisted on therapy.  Whether or not it would have mitigated things now, I will never know. 

Well, we could do like with schizophrenics. When they have severe episodes, nurses can be called and they are given a shot, normally of risperidone. 

When my H was having his psychotic episodes, I was told that no formal help could be obtained without either his approval (not going to happen with someone running away) or unless he was a danger to either himself or others.  How do you prove that you think there is a good chance he could take his life, or that the emotional abuse hurled at me was going to stop there, and not continue into physical abuse.  (which it didn't thankfully). 
So, we're back to the awful situation of the LBS and the children seeing all of those behaviours that osb so eloquently wrote about yesterday, and the MLCer then being firmly masked up in front of others.  Or explaining their anxieties away as the trauma involved in leaving their families. 
No easy answers here.  And I am with you completely - when they are this far gone - stand well back.  They are going to take as long as they are going to take, because I also believe that there are many factors at play here, and until they get some clarity and their brains are functioning at least at a level where they can see the damage and they are strong enough to start cleaning it up - they will continue blindly on.

[Anjae]

Those are observable consistencies, not tactics or techniques.   I believe getting to this point will (and has) created miracles in my life - none of them to date include my husband.

Agree. I second the part where reaching this point creates miracles in our lives. But Evas was taking about things we could do to speed up the MLCer tunnel, have them back faster, save the marriage and help the MLCer. None of those do. At least not from what we observe. They work, and very well, for the LBS.

We're still left with that could speed up the tunnel/fasten the MLCer crisis.

Speaking from my own personal experience of MLC (or transition or whatever you want to call it) there could have been a point when a lifestyle change or appropriated medical help could do. From a certain point on I had to go out & about and found things for myself.

Must say me and Mr J were talking about to changing our lifestyle, thinking of "white picket fence, 2.5 kids, etc". I keep wanting it, he started with the "I only have now to do this (DJ/clubbing), you'll have the rest of your life for the things you like (reading, study, photography)."

Of course he forgot I cannot have children for the rest of my life.

A little more about my "crisis". I was not surrounded by people who just nod their heads, pat me on the shoulder and say yes, but I was allowed to have a lot of space and freedom. Since, by then, I still wanted a husband, marriage, family, I knew the situation was temporary and it was best to give myself time and space.

But I did not broke a marriage, had OM, hurt Mr J or did the nasty things our MLCers do. So I had no guilt/shame to deal with.

When my H was having his psychotic episodes, I was told that no formal help could be obtained without either his approval (not going to happen with someone running away) or unless he was a danger to either himself or others.  How do you prove that you think there is a good chance he could take his life, or that the emotional abuse hurled at me was going to stop there, and not continue into physical abuse.  (which it didn't thankfully). 

It is the same here, Kikki. With someone that has already been diagnosed with schizophrenia you can call the medics and they will give the shot. If it is a first episode, one has to go to the hospital and it is up to the psychiatrist. Normally, as first measure, some thing to calm the person down will be give and then the doctors will decide. Of course if the person runs way we cannot take them to the hospital.

So, we're back to the awful situation of the LBS and the children seeing all of those behaviours that osb so eloquently wrote about yesterday, and the MLCer then being firmly masked up in front of others.  Or explaining their anxieties away as the trauma involved in leaving their families. 

We are. OSB wrote brilliantly about it. I think the mask the MLCer manages to use in front of others can be confusing for LBS. How do they manage? They look so normal with others but so crazy with us. However, the simple fact they are doing things they wouldn’t normally do should tell us something is wrong with them. MLCers do have some level of control. The same if true for several psychiatric disorders. And think of the alcoholic that beats the wife every night but is a model employee and a nice guy and none one believes the wife because they have never seen him at home, alone with her.

No easy answers here.  And I am with you completely - when they are this far gone - stand well back.  They are going to take as long as they are going to take, because I also believe that there are many factors at play here, and until they get some clarity and their brains are functioning at least at a level where they can see the damage and they are strong enough to start cleaning it up - they will continue blindly on.

Too many factor for a simple answer. When they are this far gone, either they come to a point they are capable of clean up and be strong enough to face what they have done, or they don’t. Most reach that point. The irony, as we all know, is that the more they run, the more mess they cause, the more they need to run from, the more guilt and shame they have. If only they would stop, change their lifestyle, and calm down a bit…

[evas]

AnneJ,
First of all, it takes a lot more than the quote from DUG to upset me! I smiled when I read it because it was in a way so predictable, of course since the H is in MLC it "may" not work...

What I am saying, and I wish instead of nitpicking you'd see my overall point here, is that LET US TRY TO BE A BIT OPEN! Is that so difficult? Or is it dangerous because it upsets some order or something? I don't know how to put it for you to understand - but maybe you do, but you just insist that I am dead wrong? And if so, it doesn't matter either. What matters to me, is that we pass on alternative ideas to people who come here and are, often, desperate. A story where something generally thought of as impossible here has become possible - would that be so harmful to present? There's a lack of reconnection/reconciliation stories here. Don't you wonder why? I am not going to be afraid to post what worked for ME. I am also not going to be afraid to post what did NOT work for ME. In the hopes that others will too, and that it will in the long run be helpful.

I am not suggesting you should do/not do anything at all in your situation. In fact I am not suggesting ANYONE here should do or not do anything. That's YOUR decision, and their too. I am just suggesting we are OPEN for other ideas, that we don't SLAM anyone who tries or is interested in trying alternative ideas. And that we make this a place where they can feel utterly free to post their reconnection stories. This is a bumpy road for all of us, AnneJ.  I can't suggest ways that work for most. I can only tell people what worked for ME. But perhaps what worked for me MAY work for others too? I am not a doctor, AnneJ, I cannot perform miracles.

Did you read what I wrote earlier: I said a quick google led me to these two articles, among many. I am not saying to take either one of them as gospel (again let us not be overly rigid here now, OK?), but I said to be open for the possibility that curbing or preventing a MLC may be possible. In every case? No.

Perhaps you're right, perhaps there is a discussion that it is possible to help the MLCer exit the tunnel faster and I have missed it. I know only that this is part of what greeted me, and most people, when I got here: "You can not do anything to control this trip." And versions of it. Personally, I don't believe in that anymore. Does this mean I dismiss everything on this site? Absolutely not. And OP has been and is extremely helpful to me. It's fine, because in his greeting there's also one of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given: "He has given you a gift. It is time!!Use the time wisely to make yourself a better person." Again AnneJ I wish you'd want to hear what I am saying: "Let's open up some. Let us not be so rigid. Let us make this a place where ideas can flow."

I'm happy for you that you're studying neuroscience. That's great! I have no studies backing me up, I am just a writer, I have only my own story as an example, that's all I can put out there. But for some perhaps that's inspiration enough!

[Ready2Transform]

Speaking from my own personal experience of MLC (or transition or whatever you want to call it) there could have been a point when a lifestyle change or appropriated medical help could do. From a certain point on I had to go out & about and found things for myself.

Ditto.  I can honestly say that were it not for the extreme regimen of supplements I take daily, and started in on when Hoss left, I may have continued to spiral out of control.  I know this because I just skipped them for two days.  I am up to about 29-30 various pills per day (I don't do a multi-vitamin, which accounts for probably the bulk of the individual things I take so I can control the dosage).  When I started, it was probably under 20 - the rest include hormone stabilizing, neurotransmitter regulating amino acids and roots.  The first day I didn't take them - I felt a little off, but not in a way I couldn't function or anything.  By today, I was very angry for no reason, I felt a burning in my arms, and a permeating sadness that felt just like pre-BD. 

This is just who I am - probably a personality disorder that ramped up in the stress between our financial/business problems, the bcps I was on, and Hoss' problems.  I really don't know.  When I was a tiny child I would be a perfect angel at school, I was very shy and reserved.  When I would get angry at home I would have epic tantrums where I would usually hurt myself.  I had versions of this throughout my life that in looking back, I can see form a pattern of covert rage when I didn't live up to my own expectations.

I have not felt like that in the two years I've been on my regimen (except when I go off of them for a few days).  That is a very short amount of time to have a relapse back into it - but it mitigates just as quickly.  This is why, AnneJ, I very much agree with you on the fact that if natural chemicals are behind it, natural chemicals can mitigate it.  Not cure - but care for.

Now, what got me to start taking them?  That's the big question, and where I look to a God/Universe/however you view it that looked kindly on me and dropped the inspiration in my spirit.  Or, from a scientific angle, the nutrients I was lacking that my subconscious mind knew finally had the clear channel to put that in my consciousness with Hoss gone.  So there's that unknown factor, too.

What I am saying, and I wish instead of nitpicking you'd see my overall point here, is that LET US TRY TO BE A BIT OPEN! Is that so difficult? Or is it dangerous because it upsets some order or something? I don't know how to put it for you to understand - but maybe you do, but you just insist that I am dead wrong? And if so, it doesn't matter either. What matters to me, is that we pass on alternative ideas to people who come here and are, often, desperate. A story where something generally thought of as impossible here has become possible - would that be so harmful to present? There's a lack of reconnection/reconciliation stories here. Don't you wonder why? I am not going to be afraid to post what worked for ME. I am also not going to be afraid to post what did NOT work for ME. In the hopes that others will too, and that it will in the long run be helpful.

I for one am very grateful you are standing up on this issue, evas.  And I am probably not the only one who is reading both Anne and Evas wanting the same thing out of this forum, just a different way of stating it.  I think with all of our input, there is a balance of information. 

[Still Kicking]

What I see is that if someone does say something worked for them then it can cause pain in someone else as if it is an accusation that they didn't do something they could have done.  It brings on a defensive stance.  And most on here are so aware of the pain that they don't want to add to it.

I agree that many MCLers are are in a place that no one but a higher being can reach.  But it shouldn't keep us from discussing the less extreme cases where actions might have an effect--even if those actions can't affect the tunnel progress but just lead to better communication.   If someone had a reconciliation than they deserve a bit of credibility even if what they did might not work for most.  It deserves examination even if it happened in spite of what they think they did.  Even if it only helps one person to discover a key to their particular situation then the sharing would have been worth it.  We all just have to be careful not to take it as a personal failure if we don't get the same results.  It would be interesting if Evas's husband was willing to share what he thought of her actions.

Ready2 I would laugh at your 32 supplements but immediately after BD a friend gave me a sample bottle of a supplement she was selling that had a lot of Tumeric in it and I didn't go into my usual 10 year pine away abandonment death spiral.  I couldn't afford to buy any more of it and I didn't plummet but one has to wonder.....

Hope you haven't given up on us Thundarr.

[toughtimes]

For me emotional pain has been a big factor in how I have responded to the break up of my marriage. I am aware that I should keep communication open etc but I find it so painful to hear about ow and his desire to involve her in my family. Non contact, except about the children, is the only way I can get through. He doesn't contact me for any reason at all.

So I wonder if I was stronger emotionally and able to communicate better whether it would help my chances for reconciliation? But then he came for Xmas and Easter and I was lovely and kind and made meals and we went for a walk as a family and he was just so unhappy and tired and didn't want to be around me. So I guess I have tried everything and nothing works!

What we are dealing with are individuals, MLCers are all different, LBSs are all different and their dynamic in their R are all different. So it can't be a one size fits all approach. But we can take generalisations and give advice based upon that.

I think ready2 is right, those of us who are able to gain confidence in ourselves and our intuition of our situation fare well regardless of what happens. It's the advice given to us when we first arrive, focus on you.