[superdog]

Hey Thundarr, you started an interesting one here.

I am not medical in anyway whatsoever but I have a few comments to make on the other stuff.

Morality and choices. I believe that each and every one of us have the actions of the MLCer in us. But.... we choose not to let this overrule our sense of right and wrong that was taught to us as children and from what our life environment teaches us. Example. I was in the supermarket the other day with my kids and the lady was emptying the self serve machine and left a huge pile of money lying on the top of an easily accessible tray we walked past. I said to my kids hey, someone could just lift that money and be gone. Does that mean I thought about it, obviously I did, but would I ever do it.... never ! What was she thinking? that everyone was as honest as she was and it was okay to leave it there because no one would steal it while she turned her back ( okay she was being neglectful) but at the end of the day we absolutely do judge others on what we would and wouldn't do ourselves.

Perhaps our h's and w's in mlc have chosen to see now what would actually happen if they let this side of them breath life. Did you ever life sweets from a counter top when you were a teenager? I did then but I wouldn't do now. Consequences are the only cure for the morality side of things.

Coping skills- I believe the reason we go through so many stages of development before our 40's is to prepare us. Prepare us for death, for changes, for our children's needs and for old age. It makes perfect sense to me that someone who missed out on any of the development stages will struggle to cope at mid life. It stands to reason that adult issues cannot have child coping skills applied to them. My h is a perfect example of this. He is using a 7 year olds coping skills like he has all his life. Now they don't work, end of. How do you learn new coping skills, you HAVE to or you will die. Anxiety = heart attack and stroke etc etc etc.

Hormones - I can't remember who talked about this but it stands to reasons that low T = feeling less of a man. NEED to find ways to feel like a man from outside them, not inside as normal.

Also there is research out there regarding the chemicals used to grow our food. Girls as young as 7 or 8 starting their periods due to the hormones pumped into animals and food. Our generations these days are going to suffer from many things the medical profession don't yet understand. That's down to nurture rather than nature.

Our world is a mess, we cant change it so we have to change ourselves to survive in it. Evolution carries on business as usual.

MLT becomes MLC because our world is evolving quicker than we are.

Just imho.

SD
x

[Niek]

About stress in infancy and how important bonding is for children, and how these things are responsible for changes in our brains.

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/linda_folden_palmer2.html

IMO this explains also the fact that FOO issues has everything to do with MC. Everybody has FOO issues, but when you know about them, discuss them and whatever more you can do with them, you can heal those issues. When you never have been feeling safe within your own family and there were no possibilities to communicate about what was going on and your parents, the people in your life you should first turn to, are not available and tells you to keep up the happy face to the outside world. What will you do as a child? I think you start rationalizing everything, put all these problems outside yourself and maybe even start to develop a dark side that nobody know of.

[UKStander]

Could RCR's survey of MLC include a survey of how many of those here have partners who may have suffered trauma in childhood? (Maybe it does already - if so, apologies.)  What Niek just wrote strikes a chord with me. It would be interesting to know the percentage of stories that do have this as a factor. Tricky judging what, exactly, counts as trauma, I grant you. But most who post here seem to have a pretty good idea whether there has been some harm done in childhood/adolesence.

What's FOO, btw? 

[OldPilot]

What's FOO, btw?

'Family of Orgin

[LisaLives]

First off, this post is an extension of an earlier one in which you pointed out that for an MLC to happen there had to be moral and character flaws already present.

You won't find any research showing that ANY drug can do ANYTHING that your body cannot do naturally a different way, and the release of the feel-good brain chemicals brought on by an infatuation high would theoretically be just as powerful as that brought on by any drug and possibly even higher as different systems would also be affected. 

But what sticks out to me the most is that you post in absolutes based on disproven (and arguably vain) assumptions that the way we see the world is the way it IS and that our MLCers see the world the same way, and given that perceive morality the same as we do.  But the problem with that is that morality is RELATIVE.

T, I'll respond to these, in brief.   

First, I did not mean to say that to have an MLC, there had to be moral flaws present.  In fact, I pointed out that many people have MLCs and in the view of many become better people, as my friend who would like to give up his life of high finance and go to seminary--to be a youth minister.  Most of our MLCers are not in that camp, they have done things to hurt us and betrayed their vows, their children and often, others. 

I am not willing to give them a free pass because their hormones were out of whack.  You can say the same thing about most of the people in the justice system.  Most addicts are self-medicating mental health disorders--do they all get a free pass, too?  Even the ones who kill while on soap crystals?  I used to work in a treatment facility, and I used to serve on a state substance abuse commission and county social service commissions.  I count three psychiatrists and three PhD psychologists among my closest friends, and dozens of mental health professionals in my wider circle. 

This is an ongoing debate in all the professional communities surrounding mental health.  I also live in a community with alternative sentencing drug, and mental health courts, including one for juveniles.  I do believe MLCers are whacked due to some body chemistry issues, but I know a lot of people in those same shoes, who juggle medications and therapy, and all that.  The key difference is some people choose to get help and admit they are in need of it.  And then others don't.   

Infatuation will NEVER do to the body what chemicals can.  I have seen heroin withdrawal and alcoholics in seizure.  Their need to feed their habits is real and physical.  I understand sex and gambling addictions, and hoarding, but they are not the same.  Most of our MLCers are not even there, they are just "in love."  And some psychologists argue the existence of a mild "love addiction" but those people behave like serial philanderers, always seeking the next new thrill.  Most of our MLCers don't seem to be in that camp. 

And your third comment.  In fact, what I meant to say is exactly what you said.  We are looking at MLC as a negative, based on our reality, but reality is relative.  How, in fact, do we not know that THEIR reality is the valid one.  I totally think that.  What right do we have to call it a disorder, or want to change them back?  If their development requires that they make these changes, so that their systems can right themselves again, who are we to say they're wrong?  All I know is that my H is a smart man and he still functions as a top leader in higher education, and is well-respected by his peers.  Every single day he makes 100s of decisions on personnel and budgets, strategy, he writes papers and presents them at international conferences.  I can see 100s of reasons why he felt he wanted a younger piece of arm candy to support him in that life. 

But if you think that's true also, then why do you think it's a condition that needs to be fixed?  These issues come up in mental health medical maintenance ALL THE TIME.  A lot of mentally ill people LIKE the way they feel most of the time.  It is only society that thinks their behaviors are not okay.  Medication makes them feel flat and foggy, and they have a hard time staying on them.  But WE tell them it is not okay to feel that way and they have to be medicated.  For many it is a lifelong struggle to understand who they really are. 

Complicated issues and I have debated them in policy from the federal level to client care...  Tough stuff... ll

[LisaLives]

To deny him not only medication that can not only help him to focus but in doing so likely lessen the anxiety he has about school and the depression that my result from this, but also not give him any allowances to somewhat even the playing field with his peers IS setting him up for failure. 

I presented this simply.  Believe me, I have not denied him medication and I have not told him to just suck it up.  He has and will always have access to the best medical, mental health and educational services available, anywhere.  We are working through his issues, but he does have choices and to take and one path, without him making an active choice for his own good, will be futile. 

For example, his father has long tentacles in all his schools.  When he works diligently on a paper, but gets to class and gets in trouble for tossing paper in the can (he is a boy and a basketball player, and sometimes...) and the teacher says "your father would be so disappointed..." and he promptly throws the paper in the trash, that is a choice.  And yes, there are 100 things wrong with everything in that situation, it activates anxiety, depression, teen shame, probably causes him to go into his next class in serious ADHD overdrive, etc... 

But managing all those things has to become conscious for him.  There is no magic pill.  His therapist helps him little, but in his 14yo mindset--it's not his fault and he doesn't WANT to.  It's hard stuff.  Same with our MLCers.  Rather than face their stuff, they ran away, and there is no magic pill to make any of those issues easier to face for them either. 

I hope that makes a little more sense.  I will never deny my kid any treatment that comes highly recommended by a respected professional, but he has some of the best, and there is no consensus, except that is sure would be better if his D were a little less selfish...  But we all know you can't fix that...  Love and light, ll   

[LisaLives]

I found an article today that talks about personality disorder symptoms and divorce.  I have not read the whole study, but it is called: 

Personality disorder symptoms are differentially related to divorce frequency.

The interesting thing is that they interviewed and tested people passed middle age, and lookad at "symptoms" not people with DSM diagnoses.  It would be interesting to see if the study gives any hint to MLC, but the brief article on the Psychology Today site talks about personality disorder symptoms increasing with age.  I know this plays away from the medical model of MLC, but I thought it was relevant, and recent, in any case.  Truly, ll 

[forthetrees]

Where is zee link?

[Ready2Transform]

Is this it? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23244459

[forthetrees]

omg- this could explain it - NORMALLY an avoidant personality is associated with a LOWER incidence of divorce and since many mlcers are avoidant, this would explain the blindsiding effect on the lbs and the incredulity factor- hmmmm