[Anjae]

But not all MLCers had poor coping skills until MLC. And many people have unresolved childhood/adolescence and FOO issues and don't have a MLC.

It requires more than childhood/adolescence and/or FOO unresolved issues to have a MLC.

RCR, I know you think some other factor make part of MLC but your articles and blogs post focus mostly on the development/psychological/FOO issues side of it. Perfect storm is appropriated for MLC.

In Replay and MLCer does seem bipolar, even it they are not (except for those who really suffer from that disorder).

RCR, do you think you could wrote an article/blog post addressing the Biochemistry component of MLC?

It's been proven that the depressed brain tends to focus only on negative thoughts that only serve to prolong the depression, and also filter out positive thoughts that may shorten it.  There is a biological/ evolutionary explanation for this that I have addressed on a previous Discussion thread but fail to remember at this time.  One of the most common symptoms of depression is a clarity of memory when it comes to unpleasant memories and one of the primary reasons for this is that they are filtered out of the pleasant memories which are pushed away unconsciously.

This matches what I've been learning in my Genetics and Neuroscience courses. And also what I have observed in my cousin and Mr J.

I don't believe FOO issues or any other childhood experiences are the CAUSES of MLC but the return to them is rather one of the symptoms.  We all have traumas in our lives and we all experience transitions but for the most part do not revisit those past traumas (or at least not to the extent the MLCers do).

Agree, the return to childhood or other experiences is one of the symptoms of MLC.

So what happens when their armor is once again sufficient to protect them enough that they can actually focus on something besides self-preservation?  I believe for all of us here (and yes, Braveheart and AnneJ, I said ALL as I'm not convinced whatsoever that either of you would not welcome a reconciliation down the road and I love you guys for that knowledge!) are hoping that they regain the clarity to see us for who we really are and realize that we were never truly the enemies they perceived us to be. 

Well, time for reconciliation has passed for me. I want a divorce and to remarry. I always knew I wasn't the enemy, Mr J is still deep in Replay, I'll be 45 this year. Too many years of my prime gone by already. Let alone for something I know it could be mitigated with medical help. Mr J knew he was depressed and refused medical help. But, OK, Thundarr, lets leave the issue open… one never knows what will happen when I turn 80.

DGU, what if the MLC life process is, in fact, not a life process but an abnormality in the life process? We already know MLC is a crisis, therefore not the normal way things should go. Conway and others have focused on the psychological issues but did not look behind them. What causes the psychological issues? Often biological factors. Like Thundarr said psychological issues are easier to identify and treat than biological ones.

I think of this in the context of Eriksonian Development. If a person has developmental gaps, those gaps may be a contributing factor (cause) later on when the person does not have the necessary skills that they would have acquired in those gaps. They then regress to those developmental gaps and the regression would be a symptom.

But we don't know if a person has, or has not, developments gaps. It is not something that can be measured, or quantified. Hormonal levels and brain chemicals are. Also, many MLCer have had good cooping skills until MLC hit. They have spent decades coping with whatever they could have from before, plus all the challenges life put on their way. Until the day MLC turned up. The regression is a symptom and concurs with what Thundarr have said.

Hormones contribute to EVERYTHING we do, and they can cause us to react in strange ways, but so do drugs.  However, only in rare case to drugs make anyone do things they were not predisposed to doing anyway.  Even most addicts don't willingly walk away from their families, their moral compass will allow them to steal and cheat their families, but in a twisted way, they still believe they are doing their best.  And, clearly, they are not functioning well, in a lot of capacities, but most MLCers still compartmentalize exceptionally well and do function well in other capacities.   

Don't know what drug addicts, and how severe their addiction is, but I know many that left their families and end up dead or living in the streets. Same for alcoholics. Of course that there has to be a predisposition. But that predisposition in biological.

It is the same predisposition that make who try cigarettes to end up smokers and others leave at it, the try. Same for alcohol. Some of us can have a few drinks and be fine with it, others became alcoholics. Same for drugs. In what is the predisposition of an MLCer different than those predispositions? And smokers, drug addicts, alcoholics, are all capable of compartmentalize. I've given several times the example of the alcoholic who beats the wife but is a model employee and friend. No one knows how he behaves home. The day his wife speaks, no one believes her.

RCR, is you have the word crisis in something it means it is not a normal situation. MLC is not the default, normal way for people to behave in midlife. Teens have hormonal issues but when their issues get out of hand they are often taken to a doctor and or psychologist who will help minimize the issues. If teen angst goes way out of hand the teen may end behind bars or worse.

I think there is a cure for MLC = minimize it, prevent the damages. If hormones and brain chemicals are at play, there is.

Otherwise we're left with: accept that you are going to have to go through hell for your spouse to (maybe) become a better person. Your spouse that most likely will no longer be your spouse and has left you (and children if there are any) in a terrible situation because they need to become better people, to found themselves, or whatever.

Sorry but for me that is not good enough. Or would be, if MLCers would go to their business leaving us alone and not causing the devastation they do. And, yes, I do not their are blind to destruction (depression does it).

You love your ADHD, but does it causes problems to Chuck? Has it destroyed your marriage? I don't think so. It is a disorder, even if you don't like it. It has advantages and disadvantages. Depends of the severity and how it affects a person life.

 

[Anjae]

And with this acceptance from the medical/scientific communities, will come general knowledge for others too.

That to me seems like an enormous improvement on what most of us have experienced.

It will and it is. But it may take a while for us to see practical help. My lawyer never doubted me when I said Mr J suffered a personality change. Nor has the social worker of the charities I have to went to because of the financial troubles.

Yet, none of them was able to provide more than their sympathy. Still, I hope MLC knowledge becomes wider and that in the future LBS will not have to go through the same we've had.

[LisaLives]

Anne, I don't think you can say for sure that most or even many MLCers had fine coping skills until MLC.  I think many were not tested in the same way UNTIL MLC.  My exH wasn't.  And most of the LBSs I talk to, when you really dig, it was a perfect storm of work/health trauma that flipped the switch.  And yes, lots of people do have poor coping skills and do not have MLCs, many people struggle with lifelong depression and do not have MLCs, so it is not all brain science, either. 

Plus, it will take a LONG time to know how to create balance--body chemistry is a delicate thing and we STILL can't treat true disorders (schizophrenia) well, let alone mild disturbances like MLC.  And get back to the point that it IS selective.  Most MLCers do function well in some ways, whether it's work, or new hobbies.  And some people would say my ADHD needs to be treated because I can't do what they want me to do.  But that's their opinion.  My co-workers view it as a huge problem that I CAN'T participate in several hours of group editing because it's the way they like to work.  I think THEY'RE crazy.  I think my exH is crazy for leaving our life, apparently he doesn't and he has new friends that think their life is great. 

He IS fine to most of the rest of the world, despite the fact that he can't remember one thing he promises S14, he just got promoted.  And that's where S14 IS RIGHT.  If S14 was the most important thing in the world, his D would find a way to do what he has to do, but fact is, he prioritizes other things.  No medicine will ever cure misplaced priorities, when there is no agreement on what the prioities should be. 

And I am sorry RCR, I never want to squash (intelligent) discussion, that's not my nature!  Love and light, ll     

[Rollercoasterider]

RCR, I know you think some other factor make part of MLC but your articles and blogs post focus mostly on the development/psychological/FOO issues side of it. Perfect storm is appropriated for MLC.
...RCR, do you think you could wrote an article/blog post addressing the Biochemistry component of MLC?

Yes they do... avoidance of a huge topic.
And yeah, I really do need to, should, must... write on this. But it's not something that will be a single article or even a few shorties. I imagine it being more like my Eriksonian chapter which is about 15,000 words and ~40 pages and with the other two chapters I had to remove because they were based in it the total 18,000 words I think.
For my mind this will be a major research project/paper. FUN though.

[Anjae]

Anne, I don't think you can say for sure that most or even many MLCers had fine coping skills until MLC.  I think many were not tested in the same way UNTIL MLC.  My exH wasn't.  And most of the LBSs I talk to, when you really dig, it was a perfect storm of work/health trauma that flipped the switch.  And yes, lots of people do have poor coping skills and do not have MLCs, many people struggle with lifelong depression and do not have MLCs, so it is not all brain science, either.

No, Lisa, I cannot say for sure but from real life MLCers I know and reading the stories here and other places it comes out that MLC and the behavior that come with it was, normally, a surprise to the LBS. I can therefor conclude that, until that point, the MLCer had coping skills. Otherwise the LBS would have already noticed and would not be so surprised at the sudden, odd behaviour.

Yes, totally agree with the perfect storm. Well, it could all still be brain/hormones issues. Women in menopause are affected by hormones but don't react the same way. Some have tremendous problems, others navigate through it easily. And the perfect storm could apply to some other disorders/diseases. Epilepsy comes to mind. For some it has always been there, for others it was there but was only triggered because of stress (that is my case. I have a very mild electric problem in my brain/type of epilepsy that only surfaced in the late 90's because I was overwhelmed with work and very stressed. Had it not be for it it could have never shown).

Plus, it will take a LONG time to know how to create balanced chemistry is a delicate thing and we STILL can't treat true disorders (schizophrenia) well, let alone mild disturbances like MLC.  And get back to the point that it IS selective.  Most MLCers do function well in some ways, whether it's work, or new hobbies.  And some people would say my ADHD needs to be treated because I can't do what they want me to do.  But that's their opinion.  My co-workers view it as a huge problem that I CAN'T participate in several hours of group editing because it's the way they like to work.  I think THEY'RE crazy.  I think my exH is crazy for leaving our life, apparently he doesn't and he has new friends that think their life is great. 

True, it takes a long time to create body chemistry balance.  Also, one person's normal level is another person's abnormal level. Theoretically it should be easy to treat a "mild" (MLC can be very, very strong) disorder/disturbance like MLC than a more complicated one like schizophrenia. We cannot cure schizophrenia but we can minimize some of its effects. And schizophrenia, like many other diseases/disorders (including cancer or heart condition) has different levels.

Neuroscience, biochemistry and psychology all still have a long way to go. And they should work more and more closer to each other.

I don't suffer from ADHD but participating in long hours of group editing is not for me.

We all think our spouses are crazy for leaving the life we've had but it is like with drug addicts, gamble addicts, alcoholics, some people will always think that they are following who they are and there is nothing wrong with them. That does not mean they are fine. Another think drug addcits, gamble addcits and alcoholics always find is new friends that support their lifestyle.

He IS fine to most of the rest of the world, despite the fact that he can't remember one thing he promises S14, he just got promoted.  And that's where S14 IS RIGHT.  If S14 was the most important thing in the world, his D would find a way to do what he has to do, but fact is, he prioritizes other things.  No medicine will ever cure misplaced priorities, when there is no agreement on what the priorities should be. 

Your husband, like many MLCers is fine to most of the world. For some MLCers a time comes when they have to keep changing worlds because people start to see that there is something wrong with them. What goes to our MLCers goes to drug addcits, gamble addicts (these ones are especially tricky since they can maintain a double life for many, many years. they can keep their addiction hidden from everyone, spouse included. gambling is considered if not the most, one of the most damaging addictions), they to have wrong priorities.

But medicine knows drug addiction, gamble addiction and alcohol are misplaced priorities, even if it cannot exactly cure them. An alcoholic will always remain one. The person may never relapse but has to stay away from alcohol for good.

Workaholic is also starting to be seen as a serious problem. Same for shopaholic. So, why not the same for MLC? It is a problem, it damages families, it causes tremendous upheaval all of sorts (financial, emotional, psychological, health related, you name it).

And I am sorry RCR, I never want to squash (intelligent) discussion, that's not my nature!  Love and light, ll   

Love and light, Lisa. 

RCR, I know you think some other factor make part of MLC but your articles and blogs post focus mostly on the development/psychological/FOO issues side of it. Perfect storm is appropriated for MLC.
...RCR, do you think you could wrote an article/blog post addressing the Biochemistry component of MLC?

Yes they do... avoidance of a huge topic.
And yeah, I really do need to, should, must... write on this. But it's not something that will be a single article or even a few shorties. I imagine it being more like my Eriksonian chapter which is about 15,000 words and ~40 pages and with the other two chapters I had to remove because they were based in it the total 18,000 words I think.
For my mind this will be a major research project/paper. FUN though.

Whenever you can it would be much appreciated. 

[LisaLives]

I still beg to differ Anne.  I was very surprised by my exH's lack of coping.  He HAD always been fine, but it is only at midlife when you face the BIG hurdles.  When your friends start dying, your parents start to fail, you face your own mortality, get huge promotions, and see your children have problems, all at the same time--then your coping mechanisms get truly tested.  In hindsight, there were times I thought he may be lacking in that regard, but at the time, I could shrug it off to a bad day/week/month and deal with it because nothing was THAT huge that I couldn't handle it alone. 

It was only when our kid was diagnosed with cancer that I realized he didn't have it...  And there is no telling, if that had happened ten years earlier, or later, or not in combination with a big promotion, my starting a business, the economy taking a nosedive, and getting sued, maybe his chemistry would have "handled" it all.  It's hard to know, but I do know that we had never truly been tested before that, even though I would have said we had.  He has a difficult and competitive job, we faced death and health scares, but never at that magnitude.  And I do think a lot of people can look back and say the same. 

Midlife is different because now you OWN the challenges, and even your parents who you once looked to for advice are starting to weaken...  Anyway, not trying to start an argument, but I am in a bit of a way today and this thread did touch a nerve.  I will not accept moral relativism in the name of science, or bad brain chemistry, or any of that, S14 is right.  People CAN make different choices.  Some addicts can't, that is true, and as much as you can liken an affair to an addiction, it is NOT the same (I have worked in a detox facility).  True physical addiction and chemical withdrawal is not the same as deciding that you are going to take OWs kids on vacation and not your own.  Those are choices, and no amount of hormone balancing is going to right that scale. 

And speaking of S14, I am facing a similar battle with him, also.  He is failing school.  He is an exceptionally bright kid, with a learning disability.  He also has hormonal issues, all males do at that age, possibly depression, anxiety and ADHD thrown in to boot.  However, none of those things are an excuse for him failing all his classes except social studies where he has a high B.  He LIKES that teacher and chooses to do well.  So as I deliberate his IEP going into HS, he doesn't need more time on tests, or drugs to make him "different."  HE CAN do it, if he chooses...  But he is choosing to piss off his dad...  We can overcome body chemistry, or choose not to let it rule us if we find ourselves in a place we don't like.  MLCers actively choose differently. 

Back to work...  ll     

[Anjae]

You’re welcome to differ, Lisa. I was also very surpressided by Mr J lack of coping. We’ve had been trough several rough situation together, both family and work related for 20 years. No friends had start do die, we have no children, no mortgage (the flat was rented), no parents failing (or better, my dad was failing but Mr J did not have to care with the issue, nor have I, my mum and siblings were looking after my dad – we lived in the capital, not here). Mr J was 36 when he left, not 45, 50 or 60. He had many, many years ahead of him. Our life was easy, no major issues to deal with.

Still facing the mortality is the one thing, coupled with stress, that I think was a major issue. Mr J had lost his paternal grandmother, if I’m not mistaken, in the Summer 2005. But he was a 35 years old man and his grandma an old lady. He had lost both his grandfathers when he was young (I never meet any of the grandfathers even if I meet Mr J when I was 18) and he coped fine with it. 

So, the death of a grandparent could had not be the reason for the crisis or a proof of bad coping skills. He had coped with the death of two grandparents when much, much younger. And me and him have been tested, big time, before and we survived fine. however Mr J went MLC in a period when nothing that serious was going on.

So I really don’t have any explanation for it except if I look to biochemical issues.

No, there is no telling. If it had happened ten years before or latter you

It was only when our kid was diagnosed with cancer that I realized he didn't have it...  And there is no telling, if that had happened ten years earlier, or later, or not in combination with a big promotion, my starting a business, the economy taking a nosedive, and getting sued, maybe his chemistry would have "handled" it all.  It's hard to know, but I do know that we had never truly been tested before that, even though I would have said we had.  He has a difficult and competitive job, we faced death and health scares, but never at that magnitude.  And I do think a lot of people can look back and say the same.

MLC may, or may not be different. Many people loose their parents when they are young so losing parents cannot be the explanation. Many people endure terrible things when they are young and they never have a MLC. Terrible things happening to you also cannot be the explanation. Like you’ve said, many people face difficult situations at work at midlife. But some face them before midlife. And they don’t have a MLC.

That I recall no one ever said that what MLCers do is right. Can people really make different choices? And here are putting you the question we were put on one of the neurology courses I took. There is a big debate on the matter, and free will, on the neuroscience community. One of the reasons being that our subconscious decides actions (like writing on a computer or grab a glass) before the actual action takes places, that is, before we are conscious aware we’re going to do it.

I’m not saying that we have or don’t have choices, I think we do but that they can be impaired by a series of things. But the big problem in MLC is not the affair. Plenty of people have affairs but don’t have a MLC. Mr J real MLC problem is his addiction to clubbing. OW is not that relevant. He left mainly because he wanted a new lifestyle, to be a DJ and go clubbing. OW1 was expecting him to be a good partner, like he was a husband. She got a die hard clubber and end up leaving him. OW2 was meet on the clubbing scene.

Since Mr J never went clubbing before, why on earth did he get into it, drinking (a thing he also didn’t do before) , not sleeping (he always needed a lot of sleep and rest), all of a sudden?

True physical addiction and chemical withdrawal is not the same as deciding that you are going to take OWs kids on vacation and not your own.  Those are choices, and no amount of hormone balancing is going to right that scale.

There can be addiction to a person, OW could be an addiction. But I confess I don’t really get the kids thing. If no amount of hormones balacing is going to right that scale, how do you explain that, after the crisis, MLCer regret their actions and go back to who they were (I know they do, one of my cousins had a MLC, albeit a very mild one, no OW, no leaving his job. But he stopped coming by for ages and he even missed our grandmother birthday, a thing he has never done)?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying, or suggesting, we have to wait or take back our MLCers. I have no wish of take back Mr J. I just want him to manage to see straight and allow us to divorce (he drags), just making questions.

He is failing school.  He is an exceptionally bright kid, with a learning disability.  He also has hormonal issues, all males do at that age, possibly depression, anxiety and ADHD thrown in to boot.  However, none of those things are an excuse for him failing all his classes except social studies where he has a high B.  He LIKES that teacher and chooses to do well.  So as I deliberate his IEP going into HS, he doesn't need more time on tests, or drugs to make him "different."  HE CAN do it, if he chooses...  But he is choosing to piss off his dad...  We can overcome body chemistry, or choose not to let it rule us if we find ourselves in a place we don't like.  MLCers actively choose differently. 

I’m sorry your S14 is failing school. But really, Lisa, your son is having hormonal troubles, possible depression, anxiety and ADHD and you think that is not a reason (a reason is not the same as an excuse) for him to be failing at school? Should he be able to, alone, overcome his hormonal issues plus depression, anxiety and ADHD? I find it a little difficult. Also, if he senses that you’re so tough and so incapable of seeing those things can be a problem that should be addressed medically or with any other appropriated help he may become even more depressed and anxious.

How exactly can your son, or anyone else, choose to overcome his body chemistry, without any other thing except choice? Choice is not going to modify is hormonal issues, depression, anxiety or ADHD. What if it social studies are just easier for your son? Are you sure he is choosing to upset his dad? Even if he is, that is not what caused his hormonal issues, depression, anxiety and ADHD, is it?

Sometimes, during my monthly cycle, I’m not capable of doing things at the same level as on other times of the month. Same if I haven’t had enough sleep.

[Thundarr]

  I will not accept moral relativism in the name of science, or bad brain chemistry, or any of that, S14 is right.  People CAN make different choices.  Some addicts can't, that is true, and as much as you can liken an affair to an addiction, it is NOT the same (I have worked in a detox facility).  True physical addiction and chemical withdrawal is not the same as deciding that you are going to take OWs kids on vacation and not your own.  Those are choices, and no amount of hormone balancing is going to right that scale. 

Love and light to you (and you know I love ya!), LL, but I must respectfully point out that there are many inherent flaws to what you have written.  First off, this post is an extension of an earlier one in which you pointed out that for an MLC to happen there had to be moral and character flaws already present.  The simple retort to this is that this is a judgment as none of us know how moral our spouses really were, but for many their actions over the 10 or 20 or 30 years demonstrated that they WERE people of character who loved and cared for their families and accepted their responsibilities just as we are doing now.  I think it extremely presumptuous to assume that they were always this way deep down. Secondly, I disagree that there are distinct differences between the addiction to another person and the addiction to a substance.  You won't find any research showing that ANY drug can do ANYTHING that your body cannot do naturally a different way, and the release of the feel-good brain chemicals brought on by an infatuation high would theoretically be just as powerful as that brought on by any drug and possibly even higher as different systems would also be affected.  We all have our drugs of choice, but some are less socially acceptable than others.

But what sticks out to me the most is that you post in absolutes based on disproven (and arguably vain) assumptions that the way we see the world is the way it IS and that our MLCers see the world the same way, and given that perceive morality the same as we do.  But the problem with that is that morality is RELATIVE.  We base our morals primarily on how we see the world and sometimes fall into the thinking error that other people should behave according to what our morals are, and if they do not then they are morally corrupt at the minimum and bankrupt at the maximum.  But, what if THEIR reality is not the same as OUR reality? What if their red is our blue and vice versa?  With the right combination of brain chemicals any of us could be turned into something we don't recognize.  If you have ever been in the presence of someone experiencing a psychotic episode or other altered reality type of event then it's clear that they do not have the same perception of right and wrong that healthy people do.  I always refer back to the old movie "They Live" where Roddy Piper put on special glasses that revealed aliens described as humans in every walk of life and he was the only one who could perceive them.  So, guess what everyone thought when he pulled out a gun and started blasting them?  That's right, mass murderer.  He perceived the world differently than those around him and so do our MLCers.  If you need proof just look at the OPs they choose!!  I can remember back to the days after BD and XW's "mansion in the ghetto" as proof positive that the world she was perceiving a world all her own.

From RCR's article Covert Depression
This fog serves a purpose. A person in their right mind would not behave this way, thus the fog buries their guilt until they can handle it.

[Thundarr]

And speaking of S14, I am facing a similar battle with him, also.  He is failing school.  He is an exceptionally bright kid, with a learning disability.  He also has hormonal issues, all males do at that age, possibly depression, anxiety and ADHD thrown in to boot.  However, none of those things are an excuse for him failing all his classes except social studies where he has a high B.  He LIKES that teacher and chooses to do well.  So as I deliberate his IEP going into HS, he doesn't need more time on tests, or drugs to make him "different."  HE CAN do it, if he chooses...  But he is choosing to piss off his dad...  We can overcome body chemistry, or choose not to let it rule us if we find ourselves in a place we don't like.  MLCers actively choose differently. 
   

I won't tell you how to parent, but I disagree wholeheartedly.  If he suffers from even one of those disorders then he has more barriers before him than typical kids his age and that's notwithstanding what your H has put the family through that is likely still unresolved.  To deny him not only medication that can not only help him to focus but in doing so likely lessen the anxiety he has about school and the depression that my result from this, but also not give him any allowances to somewhat even the playing field with his peers IS setting him up for failure.  The dangers of telling a child to just "suck it up" and then not validating his struggle by writing it off as the child just "pissing off his dad" may well be setting him up for an MLC down the road or even worse a lifelong feeling of being incapable and worthless.  I pray you reconsider your decisions, and if there are other factors or I'm not seeing all of the information I will allow for that but will offer to further discuss this with you in another format if you like.  Just as this thread touched a nerve with you, this did with me as well due to the fact that I see the negatives that result from this philosophy in the clinic routinely.  Know that I write this only from a caring perspective, my friend.

[kikki]

Lisa - this hit a nerve for me too.
I have three teen sons. 12, 14 and 15 at BD, and now 15, 17 and nearly 19.

It is a long tough haul.
Two of my children are exceptionally academic, and the other is equally as clever in many academic areas, but has a learning difficulty which affects some subjects.

Yes, to have a father in MLC, doing all sorts of outrageous things is a complete tragedy.  But as the responsible parent, I think we do our children a grave disservice if we do not allow them to navigate their teen years with our awareness, that with or without this added layer, these years can be incredibly tough for them anyway.

Add the challenges of a learning disability with the pressure of these school years, and to say that your son chooses to do well in one subject over the others is something that I do not understand.

I am sure he is very angry with his father - I have three of them who feel this way - and they feel so betrayed and let down by him. From what I have seen, most teens do not want to give their MLC parent a 'free pass' - it fascinates me that the boys and their friends all seem to be acutely aware of the cliche of MLC and the bimbo, the sports car and the embarrassing behaviour.  It seems to be part of their joking culture.  But the reality of MLC is not something that our sons talk about with their friends, unless they are very close to them. 
They all have varying degrees in their thinking - but our eldest in particular, is adamant that their Dad must have always been this way - and does not understand my interest in trying to get to the bottom of this massive change in the man I loved for a quarter of a century.
But that is okay, they are young men/teens, and I am a grown woman.  I do not form my beliefs based on my childrens' beliefs.  They do not have the life experience that I do, but I do allow them to have a voice and I hear them out - just as they know the basics of the information that I have learnt.