[Storm Rider]

I thought I would start a topic on what we see as our H's start to approach Liminality. RCR describes liminality during the MLC journey as the Depression and Withdrawn stages combined, the turning point of the MLC journey, where they have exhausted running during Replay, and get to the place where they have no option but to finally start looking within themselves. As with all places along this journey, the MLCer may approach luminosity, and back away many times before residing there as their main action. RCR has written quite a bit about how she sees this:

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/liminality.html

After thinking about a question Voyager mentioned to me a few days ago, I think I am seeing my H approach luminosity, he also still seems to be bouncing in and out of it, but I thought I would describe how I have seen changes in my H's depression over the last six months and see if others have noticed anything like what I have seen.

Mt H has had depression through out this crisis. He had a deep noticeable bout that lasted a few months during the Denial phase, about six months before bomb drop. During this period, a usually very active person, he lay in bed all day, withdraw completely, and had classic symptoms. As he came out of this period, he moved into full on Anger and Replay (I think this gave him the energy to move out of depression), towards BD, and away he went. During the first 18 months of replay, I would see small periods of depression, several months apart, but he would recover from these with replay actions.

For the last six months (about 18 months post BD), has has moved more and more into a permanent state of depression. The first couple of months were as replay activities started to catch up with him, in particular, he ran out of money and started to get calls from creditors. His view during this period was mostly blaming other people "why does all this bad luck happen to me?". He thought he had a great childhood and divorce did not affect him at all. He started to get very depressed, this was the first period he talked about taking his own life. His method of dealing with creditors during this phrase was to tell them he would pay them in a few weeks with no real plans or ability to do so. During this period which lasted a few months, he would pull himself out of depression through replay activities, parties, and with OW who he was still getting a high with. His treatment of me during this period was good, we continued to interact in more positive manner than previous, he hid most of his depression from me and all in his life although I could see it. He would be very down for a couple of weeks, then ok for a couple of weeks. He said he was just having the odd down day, but was not depressed.

The next change in his depression came when he realised he had better start to deal with the mess he had made financially (and in other areas in his life to some extent, but financial was his biggest problem at that stage). He started to actually come up with solutions for his creditors, but these were unrealistic. His main solution was to get a large bank loan, he was completely blind sided when the banks did not come to the party as GFC had changed what they would lend compared to pre GFC when he last got a loan. I think he had always thought another loan would be his get out of jail card, and he was shocked when it did not happen. At this stage, his depression again kicked in, but this time he acknowledged that he was to blame for where his life had got. He did not have a clue how to move forward, seemed very stuck, and would be very down for a couple of weeks, then pull himself up, but perhaps towards OW, although did not come back from spending time with her as happy as previous,, with other replay actions dropping off. His depression started to impact on his work, and they gave him a formal warning. It pervaded all areas of his life, he again spoke about taking his life and was in dispair. During this period, he continued to hide his depression from his family and friends, although they picked it up from the tone of his voice. He admitted to me he was depressed, even spoke about going to see someone, but was not in a place to do this. He moved towards me during this period, he would turn up down and after spending several hours with me, would leave in a better place. He continued to be considerate in his actions towards me, as much as he was able to during this period. At the end of this period, he lost his job, and came extremely close to being killed by a random Act of God.

For the last month, I have seen a different depression kick in. H has taken active and realistic steps to sort of his problems with creditors. For the first time, he has shown his family his depression and appears to be letting them help him with it and practical solutions. For the first time in over six months, I have seen low energy anger return, defiance and a short fuse, as well as much shorter mood swings. He may have broken up with OW at the start of this phase of anger, in which case there could be OW withdrawal. He quit his new job, although has another lined up. I also see this anger as him gathering energy to try to move out of the place he is in.  He is also withdrawing from me, and for the last couple of weeks has made no attempts to hang with me in order to feel better, he is niggling away to pick fights and shows little consideration in areas such as smooth toddler hand overs.

I am not sure where he is at in his journey. He cycles a lot, I would continue to expect him to do so. Perhaps he has started to hit liminality, although is bouncing back up out of it, although not as far.  He can clearly see his faults, the impact his childhood on who he has become, his shadow self, but currently does not believe he is able to move out of Shadow, he fears that is who he is permanently. That has always been one of his biggest fears, that he is all his worst features.  He wants to BE a good role model for his children, not just tell them the right thing to do.  He sees most parts of who he is much clearer (on a good day!), he perhaps sees the skin of his Self, and knows what parts he would like to shed, and who he would like to be, but not how to get there.

I am interested to see what other who are around a similar place have seen in their sitchs compared to me!

[Shantilly Lace]

I don't know it may be simply the holiday season but I have noticed H cycling faster. He has been steadily getting closer moving from months to weeks and the last week or so even daily. Sunday night withdrawn, Monday morning ok, Monday evening ok, Monday night withdrawn, tuesday morning withdrawn, tuesday evening ok. What will night bring.
Not rude just withdrawn.
This afternoon though full of plans for the house, playing with the dogs doing stuff for his birds.

3 weeks ago he was anxious to move this week i found out he hasn't even bothered looking. Lease is up in the new year.

His job is ok, he hates his job. The depression is hard to watch isn't it. But for me as ow is still around he is still in replay running hard.

[justasking]

My H almost mirrors Storms H.

H has run with depression on and off throughout. My H was depressed and withdrawn in denial and anger.

As he went into replay big time his depression was also evident, spending many hours on his own away from the family. H finally left home in Sept 09. He had lots of touch and goes from when he left our home until May 10. Before May he kept in constant contact with me via telephone or text. He wanted to help with the house etc. At this time he got very very close despite OW being in the background.

In May he withdrew from me although maintained contact with the children although it was less intense. They had days when they didn't hear from him. He never text me or kept in contact. He continued to visit weekly to see the children. My eldest D22 who is at Uni didn't hear from him for 10 weeks after she threw truth darts at him. His depression increased and that was evident to me. He would sit and stare at the television but see nothing. He spent no time with me when he visited but stayed away from me. The relationship did change with OW at this time. He left his flat and moved into her house and bought her an engagement ring in March/April. I believe her demands increased for a committment.

His awakening started in Sept. I started to see my H reappear. Although there was no contact between visits he started to spend time with me when he was home. His connection with the kids increased again. His depression was still evident but it came across as 'what have I done'.

His business had been slipping for months but he had a nonchalant approach to it and kept spending. As his awakening began he acknowledged that money was very tight and the business 'not good'. His replay behaviours started to disappear and his spending less. Creditors started chasing him.

In Nov his mood became better. I now Know he was cake eating. He had found a way to keep me and OW happy and he felt life was good. I know this had to stop and this is when I told him her or me NOT both. H admitted at this stage he wasn't sleeping, not eating and his world was caving in around him. He verbalised wanting to disappear. This ultimatum shot him back into the fog like a bullet. No contact with me between visits again and little contact when he visited, although he continued to talk about 'us' when he did intiate conversation. The business continue to slide and his money problems increase significantly. At this stage he can barely pay the staff and he reduces the money coming into our house.

His depression is lightened by taking OW to NY for a weekend, despite no money in the bank to run the business or for me to run the home where his children live. He had one more attempt to stave off his total unhappiness. I was angry about this and I gave him more truth darts about his spending and the impending bankrutcy he maybe facing.

In the last two weeks another H is emerging. After my reassurance initiated by him that I didn't despise him he has again moved forward. He is spending less and less time with OW by visiting home and taking the kids out. This week he has text me and telephoned me between visits, something that hasn't happened since May. There is a twinkle in his eye and we actually laughed the other day. H still uses some justification to get what he wants i.e he isn't coming Chrismas day because I don't want him too. I challenged that comment as he told the kids that.

I think H is struggling to move into the next stage because of OW. She has her claws into him and at the moment he doesn't have the strength to dump her, though I pray that he does. His depression seems lighter but I think Christmas day will have a significant impact on him. I think the guilt for not seeing the kids will be enormous. I hope it will again clear the fog for movement forward and dumping of OW.

Storm thank you for starting this discussion. It has been really cathartic and allowed me to reflect on H and his depression which I have never done before.

xx

[watching and waiting]

My H also follows Storms H in all this.
Her account could very well fit my H's journey.
My H is at the stage of talking suicide at times.
 He is showing his depression and the creditors are banging on the door.
What he is doing about this I have no idea.
He seems to be looking for answers but trying out quick fixes at the moment,
which as we know will not work.

Thankyou storm for your insight into your sitch and where your H is on the journey.
It is good to know that what we are seeing, others are witnessing too.

HUGS

[Storm Rider]

Shantilly,

Thanks for that. It seems within the bigger picture of what is happening, holiday events, birthdays and the like cause overprints, which may lead to further progress in their journey if they are in that place, or can be compared to how the cope with the next such event if they are still running hard.

JA,

I also started this discussion as I have only seen liminality as discussed in RCR's work mentioned in theory, not in current sitchs. It seems to be mentioned as general depression by those who have completed their journeys. Do you have any thoughts for where your H is at as far as recognising his issues, seeing his Shadow etc? It seems to me that your H recognised his issues, I am not sure if he sees Shadow, he seems to know where he wants to go and is building up the energy to get there.

W&W,

I know your H has been talking for about the same time my has of taking his life, although at times I can clearly see it is a poor me call, other times I have been very concerned, and rightly so from what I have read about depression. I have a brother who in the last two years had very bad depression, ended up in emergency wards, and Committed into institutions through serious suicide attempts on countless times, and the similarities between H in his darkest period have scary. Do keep an eye on this in your H. That he is now looking for answers is showing that at least he is not stuck, even if they are not the right ones yet.

[Shantilly Lace]

Oh yeah I forgot the comments he's made recently of just wanting to hide from everything and everyone

[justkeepmoving]

I now believe my H has been in MLC for several years.  He has had a lot of disappointments in the employment area and it all came to a head when he broke his ankle at work.  He spent 5 months at home alone and I think it all became too much and felt he needed to run away.
His new life is not working the way he thought it would.  His R with his Ds is in the crapper.  And he is off of work yet again because of his ankle that hasn't mended properly.  I think he thought if he got a fresh start things would go better for him, but it hasn't.
I think he thinks that with time all his problems will just go away.  They won't until he faces what he's done to his life.  My hope is with this time off of work and away from me he will see that I was not actually to blame.  Not too sure if this will happen but I am hopeful.
This crisis has ripped the family apart, not just our immediate family but the extented family as well.
I have no contact with my H and he has very little with his own family unless his mom intiates it.  Not sure if he is liminality or is just plain withdrawn.  So very frustrating not knowing what's going on with him.  I am worried about his safety but nothing I can do but pray for him.

[Storm Rider]

JKM,

I too saw clear signs H was in MLC for a long time before BD. As I saw very strong replay actions starting 12 months before BD, I found it hard to work out where H was along his journey. But I think RCR has it pegged when she says even when we see MLC before BD, we can expect replay to pretty much last 2 years after BD, BD is when the clock starts. We see depression and withdrawal during this two year period, and it can at time be very dominant, but it seems the running away of replay takes on average two years before they exhaust themselves and replay stops being the major way they cope.

[Storm Rider]

I am still trying to get my head around liminality, the awakening at the end of replay, and how the decisions of what to do with their life are made after depression and withdrawal according to the six stages, so just thinking out loud here.

Perhaps the awakening at the end of replay is the first time they bounce in liminality. Liminality has to be a long process, but the self awareness that begins at the end of replay is a significant change. They then have many issues to work through, perhaps, some bounce into liminality for one issue at a time, and deal with that, the easiest ones first. Maybe they start with the easiest issues to peal away the layer so they can see what is left underneath that is still important in there lives. That is why we are left until last.

But some MLCers seem to decide to return without having pealed off the baggage, in particular the OW, so perhaps for them, deciding to return was the easy issue, letting go of the "freedom" of their new life is harder. But then, for those who do not consider their marriage until well into this process like my H who has not started looking at this yet, the "freedom" of the new life is also obviously very important.

Hmm, now I am more confused, have lost my train of thought, but it might come back later!

[Buggy31]

My H exhibited depression throughout..and even throughout replay (which he is still)....During the denial and anger stage his depression was expressed through angry tantrums, yelling, victimization (very unlike him)....then he really started to withdraw as he as slipping into replay at the end of 2008.  Sleeping on couch, distancing from me, just a real sense of slipping away...I watched him slip away right in front of my eyes...I wanted to help and fix and reached out.  So, as far as I know, the affair started in Jan 2009.

From Jan 2009-June 2010 he lived at home cylcing between me and being totally emotionally distant.  There was an occasional I love you and hug but it got worse and worse although sexual contact continued up until April 2010...mostly initiated at night in bed when the stakes were low.  His depression got really bad winter 2009-2010.  He would sit and stare at the tv...he was becoming a shell...no joy...no laughter. ...at this time I believe the affair which got more serious.  After he left in June.. I saw him cycyle between normalcy happiness..yet it could change on a dime....and anger/irritability would be revealed, I also saw teary, choked up H as well.  This really had no regularity to it but it reminded me of my H as a teengaer (been together a long time)....high voice cracking and him being really loud and silly or quiet and withdrawn on the verge of tears.  During this DEEP replay I saw a lot of children.  I would say 6-8 yr old, teenager, two-three year old, baby and perhaps 20ish.  Some encouters were very strange.  I really distanced myself in June to protect myself emotionally  but would respond normally, politely and friendly to him when here or when he called.  This sort of just p***** him off. 

At this point he is TOTALLy withdrawn from everyone.  He is living with the pregnant alienator and her three children.  He rarely calls to ask about the children or talk to daughter.  He is moving farther and farther away from us.  I'm currently in NC only communicating about the children over text.  He is currently in MONSTER and projecting blame onto me concerning the kids.  While I've tried to remove myself from his projections as best I could the sitch is complicated with the children and so I am firm with him.  His current involvement with the children appears to be a way to remove guilt, appease OW/assure her and to hurt me.  Otherwise I believe he would be gone.  The few occasions that I have spoken to him I am friendly but to the point getting off quickly for he tries to engage fast. 

I believe I have an MLCer whose shown cases of over depression throughout the process.  I don't believe we are near liminality but I feel like I often see him get to the cusp only to pull himself up with anger or replay.  Normally he suffers depression in the winter so I expect that this will affect MLC...April is always the worst part.  The dead look in my H's eyes has been significant since Jan 2009

[Storm Rider]

Buggy,

So your timeline is similar to mine and JAs, and W and W, I think, but the overprint of getting OW pregnant has thrown a war zone into what otherwise might be more standard progress. I know Snodderly on another site says that some MLCers go into a second deep replay at the end of the standard replay. This is the hard core MLCers who just keep on running. I would suspect that having such a large bomb in your MLCers life at this stage might have a similar effect and disrupt his journey? He would just not have the breathing space right now to start to work on himself. But then again, perhaps he might just be overwhelmed by it all and need that timeout from everything about now and so create it?

[UNHAPPYPUP]

My H is in depression now too.  I think he MAY be near liminality, but I hesitate to write that for fear I may be wrong.

BD was Christmas Day, last year.  MLC started about 6 months before  - sleepless, restless, EA began, and the only response to my concern was "I'm fine - just stressed about work".  This year has been a mix of depression, hostility, aggression, EA withdrawl in Feb...started up again in June which I found out about...to the best of my knowledge it is over but I stopped checking so maybe it isn't.
He has never moved out.
This is going to be a hard Christmas for us both ...as we know it may be our last together as well.
Last week he drove cross country to see his parents. His mom will be passing soon, though she is young. I thought the thinking/driving time would do him well.  He came back happier, but that only lasted a day - now the depression is more apparent than ever.
I am reading a book about co-dependency and interestingly enough I see both of us there...he with his childhood issues and constant accomodating and me with dealing with his depression.  He is low-energy MLC.  Looking back, I think he has been depressed for about 10-12 years. He never really celebrated life...vacations...holidays....I think he has a mix of depression that has been long term, depression fallout from his Dad having depression, and MLC.  A lovely, lonely combination.  I feel bad wishing he would hit bottom and come back up, and at the same time I worried about suicide. 
Two psychologists, one medical doctor and one pastor all told him depression, yet he will not help himself. I am protecting myself, but moving on and sad at the  same time.

[Storm Rider]

Thanks for sharing UP. The only way any of us will be sure where our H's are is when we look back at this period with hindsight. Even those who seem to be following a more textbook journey may well cycle back and forth, let alone those whose cycle a lot on top of that! And this part is so gradual as well.

It is so very hard to sit back and not be able to help when someone has major signs of depression. I know my brother saw countless professionals (many court appointed) in the last two years with his very major depression. He could not cope with literally leaving the house for a year. He was on 30 different pills a day, was told he would never work again, but took no notice of the professionals until one day he met a little old guy he had to see(like the wax on wax off guy from the first karate kid movie). Something just clicked with this guy, his message was similar to what he learn here, but my brother was ready to hear it, and he reached his bottom and turned. Over the next year he came off all his medication, got back into life and has been working now for six months. He just got back from an overseas holiday filled with extreme sport, so these things can turn around.

[UNHAPPYPUP]

Thanks for your response.  It really means a lot to me to hear advice from those more experienced than I.
After reading this and other MLC sites for a while it seems that many experiencing MLC have had turbulent childhoods. I have come to believe that the holidays are the worst times for them - even if those memories are buried in their sub-conscious. I wonder if how I feel now (holiday blues) is how he grew up - disappointed, rejected, sad...while the rest of the world seems so happy! 

I count my blessings...he knows intellectually he should and that they are there, but that "something" is blocking it.  That's his realm: he knows intellectually something is off, but he can't put his finger on it, and is in denial about his "happy" childhood and his depression.  I have also noticed that he doesn't want to watch any shows about angels or ghosts, and he has little to no religious beliefs. Life in the shadows perhaps? 

[justasking]

Storm

It was my understanding that OW maybe present during liminality if the realstionship has changed so significantly i.e not giving the MLCer what they want and their awakening coincides with this.

I'm not sure about my H shadow. Need to read up on it to understand better.

xx

[Bewildered]

Hello Everyone here on this topic -

I think my H is in liminality or withdrawal .. why?
He has tried to sort himself out and face his issues for I think at least 6 months now but has always until now pulled himself out of the well and back into replay but beleive  its now almost impossible for him to do this, facing his issues (shadow) is fast approaching and also; because he had started behaving differently first a few months ago he was showing me he was trying to change - we had a lovely dinner together and he kept saying I really have had a lovely time tonight non -stop and was I felt we were on a date and it was obvious he missed me and kept asking me all about me etc (all on my thread) but then dis sapeared right after this  NOW been 4 weeks - hes ignored my email asking him to call regarding Xmas - his Mum has asked son 23 " Where are you spending Xmas and with who", she has been a nightmare MIL and never speaks to me (hardly did when we were together - very demanding of my H) so I'm guessing she doesn't know what hes up too? He is ignoring friends trying to contact him - the only thing hes doing is going to work but (from D) missed some meetings and seems to her "Dad is trying very hard to pretend he is very happy" plus from what the say hes trying out different personas - one a veggie eco man, the other a charity worker another a friend to struggling social entrepreneurs - All testing the weakest part of his personality - empathy, compassion, etc so

keep you posted - XX B

I think liminality must be the worst for them but the best for us - as we can at least see that the reply stage has been useful ?   

[Storm Rider]

Happy Pup,

I think you have the same amount of experience dealing with this as me, I just waffle on a bit more!

Bewildered,

I like your thoughts on seeing your H trying out different personas at the moment, and how you relate them to testing out the weak points of his personality. That sounds like the trying on of new skins that could be part of the climb out of liminality - most interesting! I think you mentioned a while back in patients thread you saw something similar with a work mate of yours coming through MLC, you saw it as a change before he returned to his wife.

I think HB and others have mentioned it in more general terms perhaps, as seeing weird stuff and different personalities at this time.

Thanks, it is helping me pull it all together. Please keep us updated with any other observations along these lines. Most other MLCers seem to be only getting close to liminality, or testing it out a bit, rather than trying to perhaps climb out the other side.

[Bewildered]

SRider

will do - he's disappeared now for nearly 5 weeks - except for a reply to an email I'd sent re: finances ( a bit pathetic and patronising so I didn't reply).

a lot of the things he says also are more trying to show me hes changing and is sorry for the way he behaved and I thank him or agree with his 'new ' way of seeing and doing things, as a teenager all he did was work hard to get to Oxford and was very much pushed by his mother - lots of expectations and therefore pressure, he really I don't think rebelled or had any fun and now hes doing what he wanted to do but think its not as fun as he thought it would be .... the grass is never greener is it?

keep you posted

Happy Christmas to All

B xx xx

[Rebel Yell]

I like the statement that "the grass is greener where you fertilize it."

[Standing Wife]

well, rebel, if the grass is greener "where you fertilize it'...then us LBS's should have the greenest grass in town then with all the "fertilizer' that our MLCers try and dish up to us as truths

[Rebel Yell]

 
Yeah, I knew that could be taken 2 ways!
I think I'd use Miracle Grow instead of the Bovine Scatology we are getting used to..
Smells better anyhow.

[trusting]

I keep wondering when my H will wake up and smell what he has been shoveling.  Sure smells to high heaven to me.

[forthetrees]

Folks the following quote came out of a newsletter on the med. condition I am dealing with but the overall topic was depression (my deal causes physical destruction and lucky me it can lead to cognitive consequences as well- the surprises just keep coming.)
Anywho, when you read this paragraph, MLCer pops into mind big time.

If you are not sure whether you are depressed, you can ask your spouse; they will tell you.  More often than not, it is the spouse that sends people in to see me.  When a person is depressed, they don’t want to burden anyone or want other people to know.  When they are out in public, they put on their best face and try to mobilize what resources they have.  That takes a tremendous amount of energy to do while depressed.  To make yourself look happy when you are really depressed takes an immense amount of concentration and effort.  Then when they go home, they have to stop trying.  It is like having run four-minute miles all day long.  They get home and have to just relax.  They let their guard down and the family sees what they are, which is depressed.  So the family often takes the brunt of it.

I think that is it in a nutshell. Perhaps the Vanishers can´t even handle the piece of coming home and being "found out."

Now, to not leave you hanging with no hope at all, the article ended with two very interesting quotes that apply to the LBSer in a BIG way: 

 The deeper sorrow carves into you, the more joy you can hold.
Kahlil Gibran

The one law that does not change is that everything changes, and the hardship I was bearing today was only a breath away from the pleasures I would have tomorrow, and those pleasures would be all the richer because of the memories of this I was enduring.
Louis L’Amour (1908-1988)

Thinking of you all,
FTT

[Butterfly]

That was really helpful. Thanks for writing this.
Butterfly

[justasking]

FTT

Thanks for bumping up this one again. It would be good if posters could continue to record their journey's with the depressed spouse.

My H certainly tried to hit rock bottom in Jan 2011 but bounced back to trying to spend more money on OW to catch the illusive happiness. I had never seen anyone look so ill and I worried about suicide as he oozed hopelessness from him.

H rallied in March and April but his business continued to slide. H is now no longer able to dodge the creditors. They chase him constantly. They now have control of him. His head is so woolly he took Jan off and a week in April as he couldn't function.  At the moment he isn't sleeping, told D20 that he is drinking, looks dishevelled when he is not at work, lost lots and lots of weight. He very rarely smiles even when the children are being funny. Although he gives me good eye contact when I do see him his eyes are deep and dead. His guilt and confusion is increasing. Interestingly OW is still hanging on and I believe increasing her request for a divorce as they have been together for over 2 years now. H did try to goad me into starting the process but I told him if he wanted a divorce he should do it but until then I am his wife.  My intuition tells me this is again rock bottom and he isn't bouncing. He has completely withdrawn from me over the past Weeks to no contact at all, unless he visits the children and even then he tries to keep out of my way.

One positive is that he has started to really reconnect with the kids. He now takes all of them out together for hours. Previously he would choose a 'favourite' and concentrate on them for a few weeks than move onto the next one.

So his tunnel is dark, empty and lifeless and his physical demeanor shows it.

Carrying on watching to see what happens next. God has him to deal with.

xx

[watching and waiting]

Hi JA
We are very much in the same place at the moment, but then we have been all through this torment, haven't we.

I also believe my H is bouncing into depression and replay.  He has hit rock bottom also I believe.
I have seent he desperation.  The 'my life is not living, I would be better off dead ' times, and then he snaps out of it, sometimes within minutes and runs into replay so fast.

Like your H my H has been withdrawn from me for just over 6 weeks.  I have seen him twice for 5 mintues in that time and he cannot even look at me.  He distracts himself with the pets and ignores that i am in his company.

Now he has no job, so no more money coming his way to finance his fantasy.
OW clings on.  How desperate can these OW be?

I haven't posted much in the past few months as I have been taking time out for me.
I have been reading around though.

Stay strong everyone.
HUGS

[Shantilly Lace]

You know what? I think 2 weeks ago Dearheart may have hit rock bottom. He has bounced since then but I think it was rock bottom.
I Remember I hit rock bottom at least twice when I left Dearheart. The first time was actually before I left him but when I hit I was gone the following day.
The second time I hit was what propelled me to seek help. I couldn't bear the thought of going down again.
 I think I was lucky in some ways as I had no other person to distract me. I spent alot of time distracting myself and worked huge hours at night. I slept very little. This was about 3 months in the second hit.  And a little while after that I sought help. 

I look at what is happening and I think MOST will have to hit rock bottom. Some will recognise the slide and try stop it by seeking help. Others know they're going down and will scrabble to avoid it. doing all sorts of things to not have to deal with that terrifying place.
Working long hours, other people, spending it's all avoidance now we know that.
I think before they left though they hit bottom and bounce to try save themselves not realising they can hit harder and further than before.

Dearheart hit rock bottom I don't know whether he will hit again or if this may make a
Movement for him. I know after hitting the second time. I ran again BEFORE I sought help.
So even if your beloveds hit rock bottom and look like they're running it's because they are. In their minds they are running to save their lives

[justasking]

Shantilly

Thank you for the great insight into rock bottom. I think you are right when you talk about the running.

My H finances are now so bad he is unable to dodge and dive as previously. The creditors and banks now have control. I know that he feels he has lost everything. He is auditing his books in case he becomes bankrupt and he knows this isn't his decision anymore as he owes so much money from the business.

When (if!) the bankruptcy comes both of us will go into financially free fall, although i am in better place through protecting myself but it will still have an impact.

I feel he has completely withdrawn from me. He no longer has the energy to fight this and his guilt overwhelms him and he is a broken man.

OW remains and H has kept her in the dark about the desperate state of his finances. She has lived well over the last 20 months but the karma bus is coming for her and H as I believe without the money she will kick him into touch and I think he knows this too hence the fantasy he has tried to keep going despite no money.

So I feel his running is in his withdrawal from me and not in replay behaviour. I will have to reread liminality again 

xx

[With Gods Help!]

Hi everyone this thread as been an asset to me, i really don’t know how to explain the difference with my h, apart from he his accepting the blame for everything he as done.......he no longer spews and his talking a lot of coming home.............where as before i was seen as the controller i am now seen as his rock (lighthouse) and he said to me he realizes he should never have treated me the way he as and when he comes home hes goner treat me the way he should have before this, he spoke of really feeling the love for me he said no its not lust as i thought when i met o/w ( think he realizes this is what it is was o/w).............i know many of our h's are in financial troubles and this is what kept my h stuck before..........however i have heard from others that h is sorting that too as he doesn’t want o/w to talk about him abandoning her with his debt (even though he spent it on her) i believe through observing my h that hes seeing the trouble he caused and before he comes home he wants to put it right so there are no implications/consequences or reasons from o/w when he returns (i know in my h's case there’s the baby) but he as said he will sort that out when he comes home,  he said he isn’t abandoning baby and will fight for access, hes leaving o/w not baby, he also says he knows she will use baby as a weapon so hes trying not to give her anymore reason to manipulate and blackmail him......................My question is this why do these o/w manipulate and blackmail only to keep them why don’t they let go is it because they know we were right all along......................h makes it obvious to her hes only there because she allows him to treat her this way................this i know is true because ive seen it and read his replys to her that hes willingly let me read. On one occasion a couple of wks ago she texted him and she said your a piss taker, however o/w said nothing when he returned from my house to hers i believe h as seen my strength and this is what draws him closer and hes accepting hes to blame and not me or our marriage hes finally seeing o/w for what she is, desperate, needy  and a drain on his soulxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Shantilly Lace]

Part of it would be EGO.
Pure and simple

If the MLCer returns to the LBS what does that say about them?

And that's what they don't like.  In ow case I truly believe that if he showed interest in anyone but me he would have been gone, but because its me...

They are both damaged and so attract to each other 

[With Gods Help!]

Hey thanks shantilly never thought about it like that............it amazes me how this goes full circle, where he was once running away from me and running to o/w hes now running from o/w and towards me lol that must really ZAP o/w's ego lol xxxx

[Bewildered]

WGH

why don't they let go is it because they know we were right all along...................

as if???

If they had morels or were intelligent enough they would never have got involved with a married man ..... so don't even think of the OP as having any ability to be a kind thoughtful caring considerate  etc person  ..  Really what Now!!!!

They don't care about you or anyone but themselves .. we could not take up with a married person .. they didn't even blink for a minute they are very morally weak and selfish people so do not even waste your time thinking about her - she is not someone who you will ever understand - let what will be just BE and let your H take her on - yes listen to what he says but maybe no involvement suggestions or anything she is his mess ..  his to clean up and his dealing with her to live with for the rest of his life (and baby only complicates this) so its got to be his decisions and his behaviour towards her that will ensure its over for ever .. let him sort? it to enable him to know he can live with himself for what he has done to her baby and you .. sounds like H needs more time and you just need to be staying strong and there for him ... and he will hopefully make you proud of him in how he deals with her,  himself and this situ ...........

B x

[StandandDeliver]

JA - something you said made me think (again) how similar the MLC journey is - whenever I doubt that this is what I am facing I see someone elses experience and think "H does exactly that right now!"

Previously he would choose a 'favourite' and concentrate on them for a few weeks than move onto the next one.

We only have 2 kids but H seems incapable of dealing with a) both of them at once  and  b) looking after them on his own - his OW, his mother, his father -someone else has always been there if he has to look after them both (or even just one of them!) for more than an hour or at most 2, and when he returns them he looks stressed and bedraggled.

They are 6 and 2, and they can be tiring because of it, but I have the 2 of them almost all the time and I only look like he does when I haven't had a break from them in 2 weeks and I have WAY more pressures to contend with than he does right now - and unlike him, noone to go home to at night to off-load troubles onto. He spends time with one or the other and leaves the other with someone else. 

[Bewildered]

S&D

yes my H has never had a planned evening out since the week he left now coming up to 2 years with both children and they are in their 20's so really not going to tire him out hey?
Once S joined D who was having a meal with her father but son ate and left whilst his father was in the loo .. d had to say X has had to go e says thanks for the meal - how awful for H hey? But that is what hes used for dinners, lunches, buying them things - not what hes meant to be their for - advice, love, friendship, support, role model etc

I think they can't deal with their children because of the emotions - one at a time is easier but still I feel very hard for them ?

You are doing so well and be proud of yourself and think of yourself and your children's needs and leave him to figure this out for himself ..unfortunately that is what has to happen xx   

[forthetrees]

Interesting article that showed up on yahoo today about happiness and the pursuit of it. Could explain why the MLCer does not find the holy grail.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20110519/sc_livescience/wanttobehappystoptrying

[justkeepmoving]

FTT,
  I really liked the article, very imformative.  I also liked the link to increasing your brain power.  Try the games they're pretty fun. 

[StandandDeliver]

Good article - reminds me of  conversation that H and I had, more than once, in the months before BD (I had no idea he was in MLC!)
He kept telling me I wasn't happy (projection) and I never knew where it was coming from. However, I did say to him that he and I must define happiness differently, because I have no expectation of being "happy" all the time. Happiness is something that comes and goes, it is not constant. I told him I was contented with my life and my family and that includes the times of happiness, the times of stress, the times of difficulty etc.

He seemed annoyed by that response and I was told that he sees it differently and he thinks everyone has the right to be happy. I asked him what constant happiness was supposed to feel like and he had no answer for that.

I remember at the time being deeply frustrated by the conversation...

[wondering]

S & D,

That's really interesting. My H said the same thing around BD and since then that this is all about him pursuing happiness. That everyone had a right to it. That he needs to find it...good luck looking for it. Too bad he doesn't realize it was home with me where it has been for 22 years now.  The strange thing is he has always been a pretty happy person and has had a great life/marriage together with a lot of friends, caribbean vacations and constant laughter, sailing, etc. We have actually had pretty charmed life compared to everyone around us. I think that is why the majority of our friends are in shock and scared that if it could happen to us two it could happen to them.

[forthetrees]

I think there was even an element of jealousy that I like my profession and h does not like what he was/is doing. The jealousy came out as anger at me, "Well, you LIKE YOUR job!"

Even with all the crap in my life, I am still a content person. You´d think Mr. tree would be over the moon with happiness by now seeing as how he has made all the "executive" decisions.

Just shows to go ya- they see our self-confidence as control and seek to run to control their lives not realizing that happiness is a state of mind. According to their parameters, there would be a 0% happiness rate in poor countries. Obviously not true, so there is something else to happiness. Yeah, comes from within. My soap box rant.

[hampc0cv]

When my H left he said basically the same thing.  He said "Don't I deserve to be happy".  I never rally thought about what he said until I read this.  Maybe he is really in MLC.  He also told me He couldn't please me no matter what he did.  I don't know where that came from because i never nagged him or anything.  My daughters even said I didn't nag and complain like a lot of women do.  My SIL coplains and nags and demands all the time and I have never done that.  Where did he come off saying he couldn't make me happy.  I know if I mentioned someting that needed to be done around the house he would say this.

[MelanieB]

This is an interesting topic.  My xH also told me, "The kids would want me to be happy".  I said, "Really?  You think that our children want you to trample their history and compromise their financial future in pursuit of your happiness?  Do you think I care if my parents are happy?  It would be nice if they were, but in reality, I don't want them running roughshod over my childhood memories, tearing our family apart to go off on some fool's errand.  They are supposed to be an example to me (yes, I'm 53 and still cling to the ideal that dear old Mom and Dad are shining the light for me to follow...).  When they were 21, I guess if they wanted to burn a few bridges in pursuit of happiness, that was the time to do it, before they had me."  Enough said-

MLCers...They just reject the whole notion of sacrifice for the welfare of others outright.   Is this all part and parcel of reverting back to acting like a teenager?    How do you ever regain your self-esteem when you do that?   

[LoveMeMyself]

I think all the MLC'ers have jumped on the "Back to their Past" bus and riding it for all it's worth! 

[Bewildered]

my h has had to resort tousing a 'happiness app' on his i-phone to tell him daily how happy he is ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

great artice as its true serach for happiness is stupid give and you will recieve x

[Trustandlove]

He also told me He couldn't please me no matter what he did.   

Hamp, my H says this as well.  That I was always complaining, never happy,  that nothing he ever did was good enough.   Of course there is some truth to the bit about me complaining; I know I was letting the stress that I was feeling come out in not the greatest ways. 

I do remember saying to him about a year ago that I'm sure I did everything that he's accusing me of, but that that wasn't the primary problem -- the problem is his not feeling good enough.  Now that may not have been the greatest thing to say to HIM, as it was still saying that he was the one with the problem, but that is the crux of it.

It puts us in a double bind -- a no-way-out situation.  It means that we can never voice any concerns, for if we do and they don't like them, they can just fall back on "well, that was my best, take it or leave it".  It's a way of shutting things down.   It's the teenager saying "I don't want to". 

I'm starting to think that the answer is to actually say "you're right, if this is your best (whatever the point in question is) then no, it isn't good enough.". 

But right now I'm just staying silent. 

But hiding behind "my best" just means that they don't have to deal with the situation. 

x

[unbroken]

So I'm really struggling with why they don't just get the divorce over with if they are so unhappy and we are the problem.
It's been over 3 1/2 years for me.  Most of that I can peg as classic MLC.  My H is now a vanisher.  Big change.  More of a boomerang before that.  Not a single word in over 5 months.  Never told me where he was going or what he was doing, just left.  Was kind enough to leave a note saying he needed time to think.
I was thinking that perhaps he hit liminality, certainly depression and withdrawal, at least in actions, if not in stage.  I'm confused about what to do now, although I know there's really nothing to do.
Is any one else in this spot?

[hampc0cv]

liw - My exh has been a vanisher from the word go.  I don't understand it but have been told he is guilt ridden and ashamed of what he has done and therefore cannot face me.  I wish I could believe that but I feel he hates me and can't stand the sight of me.  I just wish I knew why he will not contact me. 

I hope your H will continue to contact you.  I know how hard this is.

[unbroken]

Thanks,
As I said this is a CHANGE for us.  Initially it was "I don't love you and don't want to be married to you", but that soon changed to "I love you and always have".  He has "come back" to varying degrees with the hopes of reconciling, so he says.  He says he loves me, but always feels pulled away and he has never been fully present.  He's afraid of "this life".  Whatever that means.  Not too long before his disappearing act we went on a 3 1/2 week wilderness trip together, just the two of us.  Got along well, although platonically.  I pretty much knew that trip was going to put too much pressure on him and he was going to run, and sure enough.  Right on schedule.  Have NO idea what he's thinking. 
I thought I saw real progress last year, then really saw his depression in the fall.  Now he has withdrawn.  But for so LONG.  It's crazy.  My mind races and I come up with a defense to protect myself, as I fear the next time I see him it will be to end it for good.  Oddly enough though he did come back after leaving much more ominously a year and a half ago when he was confident that he wanted the D.  I even filed and he came back asking if there was hope for us.
So I'm in no man's land.
It's hard that no one really has experience with this on this board.  Maybe this is the road to permanent D.  Don't know.  People complain about their clinging boomerangs, but at least when they are around you have an opportunity to interact and pave the way.  I had that.  This is harder, IMHO - not initially - the first few weeks were peaceful, but then it sets in that he's just GONE and doing who knows what.

Our 12 year anniversary is next week.  I'm a little concerned I may hear something around that time.

[Mermaid]

I'm bumping up this thread because it is so important for us to recognise and deal with MLC depression. Not that we should try to fix it, but if we get the opportunity, we can certainly support someone who is depressed.

I'm adding some links from the net that might be useful:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression/MH00016
http://ezinearticles.com/?10-Simple-Coping-Strategies-When-a-Family-Member-Has-Clinical-Depression&id=8807
http://www.depression-help-for-you.com/helping-someone-who-is-depressed.html
From this latter site:
When helping someone who is depressed, do provide your depressed family member or friend with information.

When helping someone who is depressed, do gently encourage the depressed person to recognize his or her depression and to take active steps to get help from a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist.

When helping someone who is depressed, do provide the depressed person with practical help, as you are able.

When helping someone who is depressed, do provide the depressed person with support.

Often when someone is trying to cope with depression, he or she needs to engage in activities such as exercise. Doing this can be hard for a depressed person because the depression makes him or her feel tired, weak, and unmotivated. You can be supportive by offering to exercise (or do some other recommended activity) with him or her.

Another way to provide support is to call on the phone occasionally, asking how he or she is doing and just being a friend. As you are doing these things to support your depressed friend, be careful not to impose. If you are too pushy, the results will be counterproductive.

When helping someone who is depressed, do model positive behaviors. One of the best ways to influence someone else to become more healthy, is to be more healthy yourself. Be a good role model for your depressed friend or family member by living a positive, growing, balanced life yourself.

[Freddygone]

I agree with Mermaid that when depressed it is often suppressed, certainly that is what I do. You need to recognise it and get support.
I suppressed it and it comes back and I cycle it over and over. Subjects we dwell on can hang around for years.
The thought patterns are not dealt with but hidden away I find. Then I take them out occasionally and beat myself up again. Once I recognise it and face it, it stops.
Recognising it yourself and having support would be good, but sometimes not possible if you are alone.
There are things that happen now which hurt us badly and we then cycle on them trying to find a solution. But there are also things in our past that we are stuck on and also form obstacles which prevent us from progressing in our lives. These issues stop us from attempting things (because we know we will fail). These problems we are dwelling on are holding us back, stopping the healing process, stopping us sleeping.
But this is not necessarily true.
I had things I was hung up on (when I was asked to look at this) from when I was 8 years old at school that meant I still avoided situations as I feel embarrassed. For no reason, only past hurt or injustice.
Earlier in this thread it was said that some professionals thought that depression could, over time allow the brain to learn and retain depressive thoughts. Probably true. This is what I describe from childhood, but not as severe as this MLC and affairs. This was something else, in a different league.

Recently I was introduced to a thing called EMT (Experience or event Modification Therapy).
It is quite emotionally painful process initially and reduced me to tears as I confronted things that were still painful that had happened to me as a child. The technique is impressive.
But this technique I learnt does the reverse of allowing your brain to keep these feelings, it allows you to process the negatives and play with them until they are positives. It modifies the event, trains your brain to overcome the negative and deals with your subconscious. You change what happened, like a play with a different script. You relive it in detail and change small elements each time you examine it until the event is now a pleasant one. It may take an hour to keep processing an event until it is completely positive.
This process if done correctly affects your subconscious. I suppose you have faced the event in detail and made it something nice.
Once your subconscious is modified....You literally dream away the problems.
Once you have taken each problem you identified in your list, as an event that needs to be modified and processed it, it is less of a problem.
The maximum events that an individual has listed is something like 14 events. You might only have 5 or 6.
It worked for me.
But I do think you can untrain your depression and recognise when it is affecting you. But it is a dark cave to be trapped in.

[Tsunami]

Ladies, I am presently reading The National Bestseller "I Don't Want to Talk About It," by Terrence Real.

This is an excellent book and very insightful regarding "the secret legacy of male depression" and I have suggested this book to other members on the site and they found if very helpful in understanding their h's depression.

Most men, perceive depression as a woman's issue, and are unable to recognize it in themselves.  After reading this book, I can look at my h with compassion and empathy because I understand his state of mind from a different perspective now.

Prior to BD I continually told my h I felt he had depression issues.  When he retired he was evaluated by the VA for changes in his health since he'd spent 22 years in the military.  Last April, by accident his VA evaluation came to the house, and he is receiving 10% disability for depression.

Things that make you go hmmmm.  Do you have any idea how badly I wanted to say "I told you so fool!"  I have no idea if he has addressed this issue, he's in a foggy state of mind.

[Stillpraying]

I've found some very insightful stuff on this site:

http://www.healthcentral.com/depression/c/4446/76346/depressed-men

http://www.healthcentral.com/profiles/c/4446

[SpecialK]

This is excellent, thank you.

xx

[Sassyone]

Thanks for the links.  I went to the author's blog, some good stuff there on depression.

Personally I believe depression is an overwhelming driver in MLC.

http://www.storiedmind.com/

Sassy

[Freddygone]

COFFEE
Latest research shows that people who drink COFFEE have less incidence of Depression, Diabetes and Suicide.  This is statistically supported by the Independent Newspaper and that wonderful publication New Scientist.  Decaf is a waste of time (who wants coffee without coffee) it's like Chocolate without Cocoa.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15059266

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/researchers-report-surprising-news-about-coffee-and-diabetes-2188259.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14151-guzzling-coffee-may-cut-heart-disease.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19942-is-coffee-the-real-cure-for-a-hangover.html
What more can I say, buy beans and a grinder.

[LoveMeMyself]

I'm not sure I can agree regarding coffee.  My exH was/is a very heavy coffee drinker........fully loaded (caffeine).  He also took AD's and other depression medications........also, attempted suicide.  So, not sure it makes any difference or not.

[Freddygone]

I chose to disagree with respect.
What I quote are renowned, respectable journals. There are none more respected that New Scientist.
What you describe is someone who takes Anti Depressants too !!!

Any artificial chemical introduced to our bodies by the medical profession (or ourselves from over the counter) for normal daily life will upset significantly chemical balance. As will Coffee.

BUT what percentage of the world population drinks Coffee ?

If you read the articles, over consumption of anything is not good. But statistically Coffee is a normal antidepressant if you are not taking anything else.
These articles came from a doctor friend. Don't take chemicals.

Once when I was very young I was prescribed anti depressants and I had a few pints of beer.  Since then I wont take any prescription drug unless I am really ill and I wont touch anti depressants.
Have a Coffee and I mean ground beans. 

[OldPilot]

http://www.rd.com/advice/relationships/how-to-cope-with-a-depressed-spouse/

This article was published in readers digest.
Not bad.