[justbelieve]

This is awesome Albatross! I just read that big post on the Shadow over and over again.
I think I now, more than ever, believe I went through my own transition first, unbeknown to both of us. This makes so much sense of a dark place i was in right before HIS BD. I found myself just as he got so lost. I can't even guide him to help him find his way. They really, honestly need to do so themselves.
 But I do believe that if the person had selfish/narcissistic qualities in the first place it makes it a crisis, not a transition. Not big noting myself but I've always been a given, wanting nothing in return. He's always been a taker. Always wanting more. This has taught me it has to go both ways.
This really is a spiritual journey. An identifying of self and all we can, no SHOULD be. In my head i'm always saying 'come on! Catch up (to me) baby!!' Hopefully one day, he will.
I'm loving this thread.. It's going places !

[Anjae]

Yes, Replay begins before BD.

[Albatross]

As all You can see libido fall in shadow. Shadow blame LBS, and project on LBS. That is obvious why they treat us as raw meat, no any affection at all. So there come "I love You but not in love with You."

Please elobrate on this. Are you saying that the libido is tied into the 'love' that our spouses have for us? Sex = love sort of thing? So that is why we get treated as sexual objects?

So far I can identify my self in her world = True empathy she does not love her self, so it is impossible to love anyone. They withdraw from real life, go into self and that is natural state for them, solving own problems, depression. IMO they cannot in such state love self, so how can they love anyone else ? When shadow merge with ego, person become balanced. But how I get it, it is like two chemicals which react between meet, and then something which was divided many years now react and produce huge energy, explosion. That is the reason why they start to run from self. They are scared to death, WTF is happening to me ? They have million questions, and no answers. So they start to seek answers.

So, libido now belong to shadow and they can't feel anything on low lever for us. Other thing is that they have our personality in they shadow. We are part of them, so they don't even notice us anymore, because we are part of them. So, they refuse to touch us, see us, and feel nothing to anybody not only us. That is at beginning when shadow and ego become one.

[PatienceGalore]

So you believe that's when they come out of their crisis? And start to see what's is going on?

[Albatross]

This is awesome Albatross! I just read that big post on the Shadow over and over again.
I think I now, more than ever, believe I went through my own transition first, unbeknown to both of us. This makes so much sense of a dark place i was in right before HIS BD. I found myself just as he got so lost. I can't even guide him to help him find his way. They really, honestly need to do so themselves.
 But I do believe that if the person had selfish/narcissistic qualities in the first place it makes it a crisis, not a transition. Not big noting myself but I've always been a given, wanting nothing in return. He's always been a taker. Always wanting more. This has taught me it has to go both ways.
This really is a spiritual journey. An identifying of self and all we can, no SHOULD be. In my head i'm always saying 'come on! Catch up (to me) baby!!' Hopefully one day, he will.
I'm loving this thread.. It's going places !

I understand You totally. Why ? Because spouses have influence on each other. One start to sink slowly and gradually into depression, means going inward into self, diminish external energy, drawback is that other one intuitive follow. As everything in nature wanna spend minimum energy, both going into depression.

In my case I become almost zombie in year 2011. she was in replay but without EA. I just wait her, and she try as much as possible to be away from home. I wait for her and do parenting job, work into house, at my work and become almost widow. I am whole life was well balanced person, have as individual inner peace and equilibrium. My wife never had identity and never know what she really want, she think that she really want what society and parents smack into her superego and ego. She never was peaceful in self, and she obviously not aware of own shadow.

That is the reason why we are together. I was magnet for her, having something what she don't. She as couple become more balanced then alone. She did not change a bit all this years. And then she must change now, only way is demolish self and start from scratch.

[calamity]

Is it possible to be in replay before BD and what do you think is the shortest time replay can take?
I hate replay    Will replay always involve an affair?  So many questions.  Do I just stop looking for answers?

No you don't stop looking for answers.  You read  : http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay.html 
From above:

Most of you will recognize only two of the described stages or characteristics, the first is the characteristic Replay which is the third within Separation, and the next you may recognize is the stage of Liminality. If you only recognize one of these, it will be Replay. If your Bomb Drop was recent, your MLCer is in Replay. If your Bomb Drop was a year ago, your MLCer is in Replay. If your Bomb Drop was 18 months ago, your MLCer is likely still in Replay. If your bomb Drop was 24 months ago, he may still be in Replay,

[Albatross]

So you believe that's when they come out of their crisis? And start to see what's is going on?

I believe that they are aware what they doing all the time. But they have perspective at world as personality disordered people. From their point of view they are totally right and for them all have logic. I study a lot personality disorders and know very well how they function. It is all about them. People in their life are just objects, in severe case of PD. Most appropriate model for majority is borderline PD, for some histrionic PD, for some narcissistic PD.

They are blind for destruction. They can learn only from own mistakes. And majority of them are codependent. More shadow influence, more PD behavior. So that is the reason when we confront them with facts, which are obvious for normal people then they have cognitive resonance and you get in circular conversation. If Your statement is different what they feel, then You can spend whole night arguing. They will respond as broken record, repeating same words over and over and refuse to give any argument defending own stand about issue which is on discussion. My wife repeat same thing: "I feel nothing !" And also: "I don't wanna."

[PatienceGalore]

He says he feels nothing for me. He knows he's hurting everyone but he doesn't do anything to make it better. He looks at me with such unkindness, it's awful.

[Albatross]

Good thing is that MLCers cycle, means shadow influence is persistent and ego is who cycle. So, depend how ego is strong as Jung said. Stronger ego, MLCer is walover, weaker ego, high energy MLCer.

So, after I push my SO about internet affair, her ego diminished and monster arise. We become more distant then before. Before she blame only self - antihero. After I push her about inet affair, then she start to blame me as control freak. And for her is natural that was not infidelity because our marriage was not good. Also in time when we clash, she push in time how long our marriage was bad. At beginning was that all was good until she start to work, then was before second child, then before I start to work and at last never, we had only some at beginning, but never was real passion between us. In her angry letter after she find out that I send to both alienators PM that she have MLC then she wrote to me angry letter. It is like PD person write it. Last sentence is "I can calm my self until retirement ie. (65 years) but wont !" Means she will search for lovers. Any reasonable person never state something like that to spouse.

Anyway PD people have immature defense mechanisms like child 7 years old. So MLCers have.

Point is what will be that I did not challenge her ? She will still accuse only self ? Anyway rule of thumb should be no confrontation with MLCer, no pushing, no talking about relationship, no expectations from them whatsoever. Only making personal boundaries and stick to it. After PD people in several attempts try to break your boundaries and You defend them, no attack PD person they will get it that You wont give up and then they will accept it. Same is with MLCer.

Pushing them they will take defense stand and their ego will become weaker, shadow is persistent and for us means monster will arise.

It took 4 months that she come back on level where she was before our clash. But she take advantage of that clash and now act as she is independent, replay is about freedom. Means we stay distanced as at beginning of clash.

What that means ? If You push them and they are total mess, then they will anticipate You as someone who wanna hurt them and they are very weak, have inner struggles, they will defend self and escape from You, avoid You.


 

[Albatross]

About middle life transition and middle life crisis. I think that some people never goes from MLT, because they change self dynamically in time, change perspective, goals, expectations or people which reach goals and define new ones, generally people who change self dynamically in time - well balanced people.
People who don't change self dynamically in time or people which does not reach ever expectations, goals, dreams realize that they will never reach them, because they going anyway downhill. They will hit MLT.

And those who collapse are people which never being well balanced, have no identity, codependent people, people who have FFO issues. People who have great gap between persona and ego. Rigid people, who wont change and expect that world accommodate to  them - idealists, people which have blown up superego. Conflict avoiders.

My wife does not change self at all since years 16, her words. She is conflict avoider, idealist, codependent and without well defined identity. Generally rigid people. They simply can't keep up like that anymore. They see self as victims. "Nice boys and nice girls". They are control freaks which wanna be world savers. And when they start to lose control over life, people to which they care they become nuts. My SO accuse me that I change since we meet, LOL. I said that I change self for sure but my essence is the same. True is that I sink in depression because she sinks since 2007. Now I wake up and never will be dependent with anyone. In 25 years is normal that both spouses become codependent, but not totally. Will be not normal being in marriage as totally independent.

And finally those people must change, and they still refuse to change and change is imminent.

They don't run from us, they run from self.