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Author Topic: MLC Monster REPLAY - #5

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MLC Monster Re: REPLAY - #5
#40: July 28, 2014, 07:27:00 AM
Replay stops when they realize that narcissistic supply does not "make them happy" anymore. It is individual thing.

My H has always had narcissistic traits - I didn't see them for what they were. I don't think that my H will ever realize that it is not making him happy. Once a narcissist always a narcissist! I really think that this is where standing becomes important - standing gives you the opportunity to really look at the relationship and yourself, then you can make an informed decision about what you want from life.

Good to see you Albatross ;)
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We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

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Re: REPLAY - #5
#41: July 28, 2014, 10:01:14 AM
I have been reading your threads for a while now.  I have to re-read them a lot as I don't always understand everything.  But I appreciate your threads as they help me immensely.

I'm not sure if my h had narcissistic traits before this happened, maybe some, but I wouldn't classify him as being a narcissist.  Conflict avoidance, yes, definitely and low self esteem, which I never understood because I thought he was so smart and could do anything.  His childhood was very abusive, but he doesn't think of it that way.

He has a knowledge there is something wrong with him as he has now left ow again, supposedly, and is going to therapy and his m.d.  But as my bd was only 5 months ago I'm not sure if this will help or hurt.  He told me he needs help to get himself together and for me not to give up on him, but I really don't trust anything he says.

In the last 2 years he lost his mother (his last living parent) and six months later suffered a mini stroke and he started a new career during all this.  I was in a very good career and the money I made got us through all of this.  But instead of being proud of me it turned into some kind of competition about everything.  I have really tried to figure it all, but looking back the only things I can see that he has carried over to mlc are his anger, competitiveness, and conflict avoidance. 



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Re: REPLAY - #5
#42: July 28, 2014, 10:48:05 AM
TooManyTears - have you read about different insecure attachment styles? My H falls completely in line anxious/insecure attachment style or Fear insecure attachment style.

There is also Avoidant insecure attachment.

Of course all of the traits are severely enhanced in early BD during monster, but my H has always had these issues. but it also talks about how it affects the spouse.

All very interesting, and has helped me detach as he cannot change or be happy with ANYONE until he addresses his childhood and then learns about secure attachment. A lot of work for them.

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Re: REPLAY - #5
#43: July 28, 2014, 11:45:13 AM
I'm not sure if my h had narcissistic traits before this happened, maybe some, but I wouldn't classify him as being a narcissist.  Conflict avoidance, yes, definitely and low self esteem, which I never understood because I thought he was so smart and could do anything.  His childhood was very abusive, but he doesn't think of it that way.

Conflict avoidance is prerogative for MLC for sure. Low self esteem is prerogative for MLC and also infidelity. Abusive childhood is also prerogative for MLC.

He has a knowledge there is something wrong with him as he has now left ow again, supposedly, and is going to therapy and his m.d.  But as my bd was only 5 months ago I'm not sure if this will help or hurt.  He told me he needs help to get himself together and for me not to give up on him, but I really don't trust anything he says.

It is good because he is aware that something wrong with him, specially if he dumps OW. Like with people who are addicts admitting that You have problem is first step for healing !

In the last 2 years he lost his mother (his last living parent) and six months later suffered a mini stroke and he started a new career during all this.  I was in a very good career and the money I made got us through all of this.  But instead of being proud of me it turned into some kind of competition about everything.  I have really tried to figure it all, but looking back the only things I can see that he has carried over to mlc are his anger, competitiveness, and conflict avoidance.

Losing mother can be for sure trigger for MLC, but not a cause. Mini stroke is definitely contribute that he start to feel even more scared. It is very hard for male that his wife making more money, or better carrier when he have personal crisis. Yes, they become very competitive to prove self that they are better then we are ! Because if they succeed they then feel better about self. Anger is common feeling for them. And conflict avoidance bring them in crisis.

Your husband have perfect storm.
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Re: REPLAY - #5
#44: July 28, 2014, 12:17:00 PM
Well great.   ::)  The one thing he has to be perfect at.  It figures.   :P
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Re: REPLAY - #5
#45: July 28, 2014, 12:25:34 PM
I know TMT that's why you have to try to stay away from him!

They will take anyone they can with them. I never realized I was dealing with a NPD person until I backed off and looked at the relationship.

A narcissist with an MLC..whew stay away from them.

The ex was in replay his entire life! MLC magnified it!
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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: REPLAY - #5
#46: February 26, 2015, 10:35:00 AM
THE CENTERING/INTEGRATING STAGE OF INDIVIDUATION     

The most significant and interesting contribution of Jungian psychology to the idea of psychological development is what it says about the part of life that follows the second stage of individuation. This is where most other psychoanalytic theories stop. What is still left to do, they might ask, after a person has successfully passed over from the attitude of dependency upon nurturing environments in the first stage of psychological development and has taken up the responsibility of living like an adult in a world of other adults in the second stage? Is there anything more beyond the psychologically advanced stage of entering the father world of adaptation and adjustment and being willing and able to cope with reality? For the Jungian psychotherapist the answer is “yes”, because in fact many people enter Jungian therapy in the second half of life looking for something more than fine-tuning of their patriarchal attitudes and the further elimination of residues of childish complexes. They are often successful adults who have held jobs, raised families, succeeded in reaching many of their goals, and now wonder if this is all there is to life. It is at this point that Jungian reflection on the individuation process in the second half of life becomes relevant. This is the phase of psychological development described classically by Jung in such works as “A Study in the Process of Individuation”, when mandala symbolism, the religious function, and the search for individual meaning become important.
     The task in this stage of life, if all has gone relatively well in earlier phases, is not to become a responsible member of the community and a relatively independent and self-sufficient personality (this has been achieved in the second stage), but rather to become a centered and whole individual who is related to the transcendent as well as the immediate concrete realities of human existence. For this, another level of development is called for.
     The first separation was from the mother, initially from her body (the first birth), then from her nurturing parental psyche (a second birth). At that point the psychological individual stepped forth into the world. Now there is another passage, a third birth, when the ego puts away the primary importance given to the achievement of adaptation, which calls for conformity to the standards and expectations of the collective (the world of the “fathers”), and embarks upon the journey of becoming an individual. The second stage, a stage of conformity, is often entered, paradoxically enough, by violent acts of adolescent rebellion, undergirded by the energy of the hero archetype. The adolescent breaks out of the parental container with determined force.
The third stage, on the other hand, is usually entered into with a rather depressed and questioning attitude, as a person in the middle of life begins to shed the trappings of conformity and enters slowly and often painfully into a process of becoming born anew as a whole and integrated individual. Sometimes this stage is entered as the consequence of tragic loss that shatters fixed collective assumptions. Generally synchronicity (defined by Jung as “meaningful coincidence) plays an important role in the entry into and in the ongoing process of individuation in the third stage.

     Entering the stage of centering and integrating means gradually abandoning the previous collective definitions of identity and persona and assuming an image of self that emerges from within. Of course this does not mean leaving collective reality behind. Social reality does not disappear from the ego’s horizon or concern, but coping with it and adapting to its demands absorb less energy. There is a shift of interest and emphasis, toward reaching out to dimensions of living that have less to do with survival and more to do with meaning. Spiritual life becomes more crucially important and individualized.
     Much of the identity that is established in the second stage of individuation is derived from collective images and stereotypes, also from parental models. The persona assumed by the ego in the second stage is a structure offered by society and made of a socially constructed set of elements that more or less suit the individual. Personality in the second stage of individuation is largely a social construction. This persona is highly useful for adapting to cultural imperatives and expectations. In the third stage, the ego, which has taken on this persona and largely identified with it, begins to draw away and create a distinction between a true inner self and the social self that has been dominant. As the light between these two psychological structures widens, an element of choice enters with respect to what kind of person one is and is going to become. This new person is more unique and individual, less a social construction.


     This does not mean that one can now become anything, or anyone, one wants to be or can imagine. Rather, the truth is that an underlying structure of the psyche – called by Jung the Self (capitalized to denote its transcendence and essential difference from the ego) – comes into play in a new way and takes over the dominant position formerly held by external authority, by the voice of reality and by the “father” and the social persona. The ego now begins to answer to an inner demand and call to obedience from the psyche, rather than primarily to an outer one derived from authorities in society. The new structure that emerges from the inner world of the psyche, in the form of dream images, intuitions, inspirations, remembered ambitions, fantasies, and a strong impulse toward personal meaning, gradually destroys and replaces the persona. Working to live and to survive is no longer sufficient; one must now find something that is worth living for, and this new direction must be tailor made to fit the individual. In fact, it grows out of the individual who is deeply and constructively individuating in the second half of life.
      For someone entering upon this stage of development, psychotherapy is quite different from what it is for people who have not made it through the first two stages.

While everyone, no matter how developed or mature, shows some residual elements from the earlier stages of development – some borderline and narcissistic features, some degree of participation mystique with others and the environment, some lingering childishness and puerile qualities and defensiveness – these are not the paramount issues in therapy with a person in the third stage of individuation. What is central is, first, separating from the identification with the persona formed in the second stage, and then finding a personal center, a point of inner integrity that is free of the stereotypes of collective culture and based on intimations of the Self. What is aimed for is a degree of integration of the inner opposites inherent in the Self, which allows for striking a vital balance in ones everyday life. Jung speaks of integrating the shadow and relating in a new conscious way to the anima or animus.
     Transference is fundamentally different, too, in the psychotherapy of people who are entering or pursuing further the third stage of individuation. The therapist is not consciously or unconsciously related to as nurturing mother or guiding father. Instead, the therapist is typically seen (truly or not) as a wisdom figure, as someone who has achieved individuality and wholeness and relates personally to the Self. This projection is cast upon the therapist because this is the unconscious content that the patient needs and must find a model for somewhere in the world at this stage of life. That job lands at the feet of the therapist. People look for, and seem to find, the models they need for their further growth in their therapists, and an image of psychological wholeness is what is now required by the psyche.
     A wisdom figure is someone who is seen to have arrived at an inner center and lives out of the resource found there. It is not necessarily someone who has all the answers to life’s concrete problems. It is a person in whom we see containment of the opposites, who is able to remain intact and balanced in even the most splitting and tension-ridden situations, who maintains an even attitude of connection with others but also detachment from ego preferences. It is a person who has found the Self and lives in relation to that inner reality rather than seeking approval from others or being possessed by desire and attachment to egoistic goals. Most importantly, it is a person who shows spontaneity, freedom, and a distinctive personality. This person is vivid and displays a sense of uniqueness based upon having made many clear individual choices in life.
      This image is what is found in the transference projection. Much of it is, of course, a projection based on unconscious patterns that are emerging in the field between patient and therapist. One can think of it as a sort of idealizing transference, but one that is grounded in the archetype of the Self rather than in the unconscious mother or father images.
     The goal of this third stage of individuation is the inner union of pieces of the psyche that were divided and split off by earlier developmental demands and processes. In this stage of integration, a strong need arises to join the opposites of persona (good person) and shadow (bad person), of masculine and feminine, of child and adult, of right brain and left brain, of thinking and feeling, of introversion and extraversion. All of the undervalued pieces of potential development that were earlier separated from consciousness and repressed in the course of the first two stages of individuation, so that one could grow an ego and enter into relation to the world of reality in an adaptive way, now come back for integration. In those first two stages one typically becomes a certain psychological type, one identifies with one gender and one gender preference, one adopts a certain persona from among those offered by family and wider culture and identifies with it. In the centering/integrating stage, on the other hand, one reaches back and picks up the lost or denied pieces and weaves them into the fabric of the whole. In the end, nothing (or very little) that is human is foreign to the Self. And as the ego approximates the Self, it too feels less alienated from all of humanity and from the profound complexities of reality. In short, one becomes more accepting of complexity within and without.
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« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 10:49:50 AM by Albatross »

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Re: REPLAY - #5
#47: February 27, 2015, 02:35:01 AM
This, for me, explains the journey I am on. I was deeply influenced by my parents during my first adulthood and clung to unconscious behaviours that did not serve me, my true self. I made choices based upon survival, which job will pay reasonably well so that I can look after myself. No parents to bank role me so I could try what I truly wanted to do.

So birth is the first stage of individuation, adolescence is the birth of the second stage (first adulthood) and then midlife is the birth of the third (second adulthood) and individuation at midlife is taking steps to become the person you truly are.
This is what my MLCer said to me, he said he was the becoming the man he always should have been. However, he got together with a 23 year old, now 26, he is redoing his twenties with someone else. Is it possible to take this journey consciously, the third stage, but because there is trauma at other stages (for my H it is parting from the mother at four and then parents divorcing at 15 and so abandonment from the mother again and some rejection from the father who was starting again with a new family) the conscious decision to individuate gets messed up with the unconscious egoic drive? This is what RCR is saying MLC essentially is right????

A question a friend asked me the other day was, what if they go through the individuation process and just come out the other side with the other person? The pull of the LBS or family is not enough to bring them back because they have reconciled this was all meant to be for their journey? The model of family that they have experienced is one of break up, parents are 'happy' - kids are messed up but the MLCer has individuated and distanced himself from that pain and cannot see that he is doing the same to his children?


The ego now begins to answer to an inner demand and call to obedience from the psyche, rather than primarily to an outer one derived from authorities in society. The new structure that emerges from the inner world of the psyche, in the form of dream images, intuitions, inspirations, remembered ambitions, fantasies, and a strong impulse toward personal meaning, gradually destroys and replaces the persona. Working to live and to survive is no longer sufficient; one must now find something that is worth living for, and this new direction must be tailor made to fit the individual. In fact, it grows out of the individual who is deeply and constructively individuating in the second half of life.


It seems that MLCers who have abandoned are in a much better position to individuate successfully because they have the resources (my H used family money to change his career and life) and the time and the freedom to follow this path. But I suppose individuation is about the inner work and MLCers are too busy focusing on the ego and outside forces giving pleasure etc.
The LBS who has small children to care for, is left with no other choice than to work to live and survive again, although the inner urge is to seek meaningful work we have kids to house and feed and nurture and so, like adolescence our third birth is influenced/restricted by outside forces and we might not be truly free to become who we really are meant to be? Might be being a bit dramatic here, especially as the process is about the inner self???

Just a few questions that have come up for me around Jung's theories. I am aware that he started writing about individuation in 1916 so real life, as opposed the inner life, has changed significantly, people are having children later and so midlife individuation can occur when those children are still very young and in need of nurturing.

Found quite a good article by Murray Stein published in 2005 -

http://www.junginstitute.org/pdf_files/JungV7N2p1-14.pdf




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Re: REPLAY - #5
#48: March 13, 2015, 08:49:42 AM
Thx for this amazing input, I had to read it a couple of times to understand. An some I stil don't get...

It makes me understand that it was al programmed and non of us wer able to save them from this journey, they are damaged. And have to find out al about them self

My W is had a bad childhood, really bad.....

I notice al her changes now I know we're it come from, I probely would have reacted different, if I know all about MLC.

I have a question about replay.

My w pusched the pause bottun, w left on 24/10/2013. Fild in for divorce selling the hous. Blaming angry and scared. Ther was OM   W left OM and came back on 16/05/2014. After 8 months.....stop to the divorce dident want the House on the market. W moved back in, just to leaf again after 7 months.....

is it possible that they can push the pause button? Was she a ware that I was getting on with my life our just to confirm that here first choice was the right one. She moved back in with OM. Told me theat she stil had feelings for him....in May w told me that they dident fit toughter at no point, now it's here soulmate, that's what w tells. Maybe is this here outcome and w is on the outher side and OM is the right one. Our is her journy not ended?

Can they push on pause ?
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maybe it's not about the happy ending maybe it's about the story

BD1 24/10/2013
Return Home 16/05/2014
BD2 07/01/2015

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Re: REPLAY - #5
#49: March 13, 2015, 11:02:00 AM
Re the "pause button"... Progress is not always linear. I think that's why they sometimes come back only to leave again. People like options and when we begin to move on i think they sometimes panic knowing an option (control) is being removed. Just my opinion.
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