[Watcher]

My psychiatrist(male), was the one that brought up MLC to me along with bipolar and paranoia issues. He has felt from the beginning that OM is the driving force here. I have been replaced and there is nothing that I can do or say to change her mind. Her brain is closed to me. Only a professional therapist will be able to unlock her brain. He does not believe that W will file for a divorce. He feels that I must file in order to bring her back to reality. He feels that I should ask W questions about OM and her issues. Yea, did that once and was not good. His direct and confront  W approach is not the best idea.( 9 months currently)

My work psychologist (female), said your W is done. She wants a divorce. This is how marriages end. Here is the # to a good lawyer.  In her defense I only went to her twice so she really had a small sample to deal with.

My private psychologist  (female) felt the same initially. Your W is done, etc..  She has changed her stance over time. Your W is ill. There are elements of MLC and mental illness according to her. She is now adamant that W is never going to file. I will have to. Not a big fan of the MLC theory but she does recognize it due to the bizarre behavior.  She has held firm from the beginning that W cannot be forced into therapy, nor would she go on her own for quite some time.  She says absolutely do not discuss OM or her issues. W will have to address on her timeline. ( 8 months currently)

[Songanddance]

Watcher - you have raised the point that concerns me the most about some of the therapists and counsellors that LBSers here are seeing.

All 3 (!!) of your psychologist/psychiatrists have said that whilst they might recognise that she is done then it is up to you to file, end the marriage formally and "MOVE ON"

This is so telling - they really do not understand MLC and the fact that it is rooted in deep depression but also committing what I think is unprofessional behaviour.   

As stated earlier my therapist refused to discuss H, his behaviour or depression - I was and am her client. I am the one who is important and not the marriage and certainly not my H. She wanted and still does wants me to heal on my own - to make my own decisions and to grow for me. If that means I choose to D or not - so be it. I have to be able to live with myself and my decisions

This is what any good individual therapist should do. Yes of course they should recommend that you look at your marriage and H/W and how it is affecting you but they are in no position to declare that the marriage is completely over, nor are in they in any position to declare that filing will be the thing you should do because it is best for you.  In so doing they are no better than the rest of society that just doesn' get MLC. 

I am not dismissing any of the work that any of your individual counsellors/therapists etc do for you but I am very concerned that some LBSers on here might be wasting money spending time discussing the MLCer rather than themselves.

UKS and MBIB state that they feel the problem is not with them. No generally for most if us it isn't - this is MLC and like them I thought that I was ok and the one that was hard done by. I went to my T initially because I didn't want to takes ADs and could not stop crying after 5 months. I felt destroyed inwardly and didn't like it. S&D had always been the one in quiet control and always organised etc...

Now I realise that even though I thought I was fine and the problem wasn't with me - I still feel that way but I feel more whole, more complete and more content with life even though it's handed me a few challenges. I am happier than I have ever been and I am able to pass that happiness onto my family and even H!

Therefore this is why I am almost evangelical about individual therapy and how it must only be tailored to the "client" and not the marriage or the MLCer. 
I am also incredibly wary of counsellors that promote divorce - that does not solve any emotional problem even though it might be a very practical thing to do in terms of finance and children etc.  Closure arises from internal processing leading to outward actions and not the other way around.

[Samurai]

This is what any good individual therapist should do.

For you. Maybe Watcher needs different things and way to heal. We can't tell, maybe his therapists can.

[1trouble]

This is what any good individual therapist should do.

For you. Maybe Watcher needs different things and way to heal. We can't tell, maybe his therapists can.

I get very angry when I see therapists TELLING people what is best for them.

They should be working with you to understand the problems and to help you to get stronger to make your own decisions, they should be helping you to identify the coping mechanisms to get you through the pain, they should be helping you to identify any problems or issues you may have which stops you from healing, like co dependency, fixer modes (which most LBS's seem to have).

I would think most people who go to see a therapist do it at a time when they are extremely vulnerable (not all but it is pretty much the case with an LBS, particularly if its at the start of the MLC hell).

We are all over the place, I know I still can be, I can go from compassion, to anger, to sadness, to grief, to laughing at the ridiculousness of all this within the space of an hour.

So to be TOLD what you should do, particularly from someone who you spend an hour week with and does not know you really or your relationship, circumstances etc. is frankly IMO unprofessional and dangerous.

Having now been in therapy since July 2015 I have found it a revelation I am also lucky enough to have a sister and BF who are both trained therapists and as I have a keen interest in anything Psychology based I have also been an avid reader.
Yet I am still coping with my emotions on a day to day basis and although I am much stronger than I ever realised I don't have any self esteem issues and I can intellectualise MLC I am still suffer shock each time my H does something, even if its something I might expect, you still have to deal with it.

We all know in our heart if or when we are done and even then it hurts.
So to be pushed into divorce by a therapist who does not have to deal with the aftermath, the pain or anguish, regret every day and who after they write your notes up, think nothing more about you until the next time IMO is plain wrong.
Rant over....I will document a few things my therapist has said later

[Watcher]

Songanddance,

That probably would explain why I am angry after my sessions and it takes me about a day or two for me to regain my equilibrium. I have to admit, I go to the psychiatrist purely for my anxiety. Unfortunately, my anxiety is for my W solely. He is once a month and I do not follow his relationship advice, because being aggressive with a MLC'er is really counter productive. I listened once and it had disastrous results. I run things through my IC and she appears to be more level headed with whats going on.

My IC has evolved. Her initial stance was divorce. She does recognize illness and encourages me to allow my W to have time now to process what she is going through. HOWEVER,  you may want to sit down for this one Songanddance, she has recently asked me if I started dating and informed me about a certain dating website. I have to admit that I left the office confused that day and did cancel my next session. I have questioned myself whether its really worth going back.

In all of this, my female attorney has shown the most compassion. "Your W is obviously going through something and I can see that you still love her. There is no reason to rush into divorce."  That has been my stance. I have always said that is my line in the sand. Once I cross it, there will be no going back.

[Songanddance]

Quote from: Songanddance on Today at 08:38:49
This is what any good individual therapist should do.
For you. Maybe Watcher needs different things and way to heal. We can't tell, maybe his therapists can.

I get very angry when I see therapists TELLING people what is best for them.

They should be working with you to understand the problems and to help you to get stronger to make your own decisions, they should be helping you to identify the coping mechanisms to get you through the pain, they should be helping you to identify any problems or issues you may have which stops you from healing, like co dependency, fixer modes (which most LBS's seem to have)

Exactly 1T

Samurai - I think you have me wrong here.  I did not say that Watcher didn't need different things or different way to heal. What  I said was that the counsellors/therapists etc who channel/focus their client towards a path without giving them the space or genuine concern to discover and decide for themselves are not being helpful/ appropriate. 
It's a bit like going to the doctor when you know that you have a chest infection and the doctor saying "nah - you'll get better soon but I would like you to try rock climbing as a form of exercise to help you get over it."

HOWEVER,  you may want to sit down for this one Songanddance, she has recently asked me if I started dating and informed me about a certain dating website. I have to admit that I left the office confused that day and did cancel my next session. I have questioned myself whether its really worth going back.

Honestly - Watcher - my absolutely honest opinion is no - don't waste your money.

[Reallytrying]

I have to agree with S&D on this one a good IC should never tell you what to do but help you explore your options and work towards your goals. If you want to divorce then they help you get to a point where that is an ok option - same for standing.  I don't think talk of the MLCer is automatically bad but it should be brought back to how the behavior makes you feel, etc. IC can't predict the future so telling you that your marriage is done is very inappropriate. My IC would say that my marriage is done until I say it is.
I think many IC fall into the same traps that our friends do where they want to see the nightmare end so they encourage divorce. However, if that is not what you want then that will not end the pain.

2 nuggets I've found especially useful from my IC (who has written books on male MLC):
1.  Assume neutral or positive intent until I know otherwise. It stopped me from over personalizing my H's behavior.
2.  He makes me commit to my stand in increments. I'm commited through the end of April. I'm not allowed to second guess based on circumstances in that time. We'll revisit at end of April to determine if I want to keep standing and recommit for some other period of time. That really helped get me off the roller coaster. I don't second guess based on each thing H does.

My marriage coach on the other hand got me focusing on my own behavior and that I am the only person I am 100% in control of. She's taught me about keeping my behavior consistent regardless of H's behavior. I am therefore not reacting to him but acting in ways that are authentic to me.

[Treasure]

Attaching x

[Velika]

RT, I think you are getting really good advice.

I feel unfortunately we are all in a situation that in many ways appears identical to a breakup on the surface.

However, in most cases what we are likely witnessing is PTSD, depression, and even serious mental illness and/or psychological triggers.

Therefore, we need to be in therapy both to deal with our own trauma and also learn a way to react that does not exacerbate the PTSD/depression/illness.

These are very difficult skills to learn simultaneously. Especially if the person we are reaching out to for help is treating the situation as a simple breakup or surfacing, pre existing personality disorder.

I think Watcher's comment shows that it takes a while for any therapist to understand what is going on.

I think that what is happening above all is trauma. Oftentimes traumatized people need to discuss what happened for a long, long time just to process it. Telling them to get a divorce is like telling someone who experienced a devastating earthquake that killed their entire family that they need to move to another town right away. If that ends up being the right decision, it will become apparent over time.

Likewise, I do think that sometimes means just talking about MLC until we are ready to talk more about ourselves. Using the earthquake analogy, someone experiencing a natural disaster might need to process over and over before they start to ask questions like: Why didn't I call for help? Why didn't I run to the next room? Etc.

From my own limited experience, I would offer the following helpful tips for dealing with MLC/LBS trauma in therapy:

• I would avoid marriage counseling right after bomb drop. (Taking further, I would avoid MLC spouse almost completely if possible at least three months post bomb drop.)
• Only go to a couples/joint counselor who you have talked with prior and who seems to understand this is not just a marriage problem. Find someone who is pro-marriage and not divorced and who is willing to talk to both of you in general terms, not just trying to diagnose the marriage or set goals.
• If joint counseling is an option, see separately until spouse is ready to work on marriage or has calmed down.
• Find someone who is trained in trauma and healing techniques: imago, EFT, hypnosis, NLP.
• Find a therapist who understands childhood wounding issues.
• Find a therapist who understands depression, especially male depression

.

I will add anything if it comes up. It's really helpful to read about others' experiences.

[Watcher]

Songanddance,

That is where I have been leaning for quite sometime now. I think in my initial hysteria I jumped at the chance for a therapist without really doing much research on it. I believe it served its basic purpose of allowing me to talk with someone when I really needed it. I have recovered from the initial shock and have been looking to bring the sessions to an end. I already know that I'm standing so its really counter productive for me to continue this type of therapy.

RT- I like the incremental approach. It allows one to set goals and assess the situation on a month to month basis. I never have considered divorce at all. I only went to a lawyer to protect myself. I think initially I was devastated with the thought of divorce for the first 5 months. I no longer think about it. Maybe it helps that W has not brought it up since November. Either way, I think I'm more comfortable in my skin now.

Velika- I am going to explore more therapy options. I find it useful to talk, but I may need to find something more suitable. Even my separation/divorce group members have advised that counseling did not work for any of them. The individual that was receptive to marriage took the counseling seriously. The individual that eventually filed is the one that did not approach therapy with serious intentions. If W needs therapy, she will find it for herself.