[offwhitelily]

The live in I believe has a lot to do with co dependence. I am still the mother to whom he is attached. Unless he can se me as the person I really am, then he can never be a true independent from me. That showed in his inability to live alone.

I am also the proud Mommy of a 17 year old boy trapped in a 50 year old body! He even calls me "Mom", with the occassional "Hon" when he thinks I am getting a little too detached. Ten months in and he is not going anywhere at the moment. OW lives across an Ocean but, she will be moving here and they will be getting a house together in May, oops, I mean April, errr, this summer, oh wait, it's September. Yes, September. For sure. I think she is in MLC too so, who knows if she will ever come. I do know, for sure, he will not go anywhere unless she moves over here. He is terrified of being alone. Currently, he treats his family like his consolation prize in life. OW is "plan A", we are "plan B". Someday, he will realize he already had the grand prize and traded it for door #2 - the booby prize.

He has met up with OW in person five times - I like to call them "reality vacations". He pretends he does not have a pesky wife and kids. He is a complete poser with OW - nothing like his "old" self. He conforms to "yes, dear" mode - likes everything she likes and tries very hard to impress her. She has already started in on the demands - telling him who he can and can't talk to, what clothes he should wear etc. It should be interesting if she does move here - in his fantasy, he's going to come over every day to see the kids and be here with us for every holiday! OW is not that understanding, though he seems oblivious to that fact. Well, let's face it, he's is oblivious to anything factual.

I have not mentioned the R at all since New Year.
I learned a new way of speaking  - one word "uhuh." This can be said in a variety of tones and works wonders in the conversations. When H starts rambling on and tries to bring up anything vaguely with the R, I say a mixture of the following " It's interesting that you think that H or what makes you think that H? and/or I'm sorry you feel that way but you know it's not true. "

When the kids are around, I create a "fantasy" life for them - that of a happy family. When they are not present, I use the same technique as S&D - "uhuh." I don't engage in any conversation with my H, unless he asks me a question. I answer politely. I tell him nothing about my day to day life. I carry on and do my own thing. He cycles from day to day...sometimes he appears happy; sometimes he cries; sometimes he spends all day playing on his phone; sometimes he goes on a super-Dad binge...you never know which personality will emerge.

I agree - we are a different breed and finding ourselves facing the MLCer daily is exhausting but I think we are the ones who can establish a line of communication that touch and goers can't.
And I think we can become stronger sooner because we have to really learn how to build our own lives in spite of the MLCer trying to pull us back in.
I think we also learn to recognise the fishbait/ hoovering attempts.
I think we also learn how not to talk about R and when to simply withdraw which paves the way for setting boundaries and increasing your ability to detach.

It is exhausting. Walking the tightrope with a small child in each arm makes it that much more so. It is a daily struggle to stay out away from the drama our H's try to create. After a while, you can begin to see patterns in the behaviour and, armed with the knowledge of MLC from this site, begin to see their actions for what they are...even when they don't understand their own conduct.

Keep calm and carry on. When I start to get anxious, I remember one simple phrase..."this too shall pass".

-OWL

[Thunder]

I must say you all sound very strong and have found ways to live with your MLCers.

I lived with my X for able a year and a half after BD.  It was no picnic.  I moved out eventually because I THOUGHT the D was almost over and it made no sense to me to still live with him.  Well, the D took another year to actually be final.  My X dragged his feet for a long time.

The only thing I have to add to this is...at least your w/h gets to see you grow and change.  That is one upside to them still being in the house.  When they vanish it's much harder.
I think my X is pretty amazed that I had the strength to carry on without him.  He said many times "you don't do well on your own, you'll find someone else within 3 months."
Well. it's been 3 1/2 years and I'm doing great on my own.  Who'd a thought?  : )

So they see your changes and it does make a difference.
Just be your nice self and get a life....right in front of their eyes.  They'll remember what they walked away from, if and when they do leave.

[Searching4Answers]

I am curious - did your MLCer ever live alone before you got married? My H never lived alone. He went from one parent to the other, lived with roommates and GF for a few years, lived with grandma, then with me. I on the other hand lived alone for several years.

Re conflict avoidance - there is something in that but I do not think it is  typical of a stay at home MLCer. A lot of conflict avoiders will run from the home and to the OW because they mistakenly think that it is the LBS that causes the conflict. My H is probably avoiding conflict more than he did. He never used to be a conflict avoider.  I was the conflict avoider and whenever he got cross would try and calm it all down.

My H avoids the issue whenever he can. We cannot have a conversation about anything that is not what he wants. I also was the conflict avoider in my relationship - kept everything calm, not anymore. I always thought that H and I would end up in big arguments if I didn't keep the peace - I have learned that is not the case

But then in the early days after BD I was the angry one- I shouted and screamed, I did everything I could to force him out.

I did this as well which is totally out of character for me - he just stands there and takes it His dad says that H knows that he is wrong and he deserves my yelling and screaming so he takes it Nothing wil convince him to leave - I really doubt that the OW will be able to get him to leave either.

He has met up with OW in person five times - I like to call them "reality vacations". He pretends he does not have a pesky wife and kids. He is a complete poser with OW - nothing like his "old" self. He conforms to "yes, dear" mode - likes everything she likes and tries very hard to impress her.

My H actually calls them a vacation from reality I told him he was the one screwed reality up and he was the one that could fix it. Interesting that he doesn't think of OW as reality.

[Thunder]

Searching,
My X never lived alone either.  He is now.

[superdog]

My h lived alone for a year in london at 21.

When he left for those months he admitted he had convinced himself that if he left home like he did at 21 then everything would be alright with his world. He then admitted that the time he was going back to wasnt that great, he was sad and lonely and he spent many nights crying. I think the replay worked out exactly the same.

My h also said he was not keaving again, he would not run away again cos it solved nothing.

Now he just hides in his room.

Sd
X

[Songanddance]

My H doesn't hide for much. He buries himself in his studio when he is not with OW which is a form of hiding but most of the time he uses the house just like he used to.
That is tough because I see him getting ready for OW  but he does stick to the boundary I gave him which is not to mention her name, not to mention where he is going and to understand that I will not text him while he is out and he is not to text me unless it is an emergency.

[Darth Obo]

10+ months post BD and still at home. Has had 4 "melt down" moments where she wants to leave / have her space / out of marriage. Yet, here she is still.

After dealing with soldiers for 22 years I have an extremely low tolerance for BS and can sniff it out at the drop of a dime! The way I deal with my MLCer is probably a bit more harsh with certain things at certain times!

First melt downs, I grovelled; was still close to BD and raw. Second I was very matter of fact and told her she could go but making a mistake. Third I was pissed and tried to push her out; she cried 7 I gave in. 4th & most recent asked for a divorce and didn't want anything from me; i can have it all! Cool babe, I accept and lets sell the wedding rings too so we can pay off some debt. Yet once again, her tune changed real quick!

In between all of these, she has T & G enough to try and hang on but still have her space. It has taken me a while to realize she monsters with seduction & pity / crying. And I been falling for it every time. Cake is good and she is hungry!!!

Any time I try to go 180 dim/dark she can sense it immediately and does anything she can to get my attention. She will ask all the are you ok, what is wrong, are you mad questions. Like she don't know! really? I blow her off until I feel like engaging her!

I think it really bothers her that I am able to get out now and do my own thing and have in fact stopped catering to her all the time. I am not always available. I do not tell her where I go all the time. I will just take D11 and go do things without her like she tried to do to me! I truth dart when I can and they always seem to hit home & shut her up!

Mean Monster - At first I was all pleasant, nice, blah blah...yeah whatever! I think it was the third time she rose up on me after we started therapy! She has what I call "b!tc# mode" and was trying to rage monster at me! I had enough; I got right up in her face, backed her into a corner, put my finger in her face and proceeded to scold her like a child! Basically treated her like I would D11 if she got lippy with me! Told her she better never ever raise her voice to me like that or disrespect me again because I wasn't taking her bull$h!te anymore! Yep, I intimidated her...and it worked! She still has b!tc# mode, but keeps it to herself because I call her on it in a heartbeat!

If she distances, I distance and increase GAL. If she is pleasant, i am pleasant. If she wants to spend time with me or an activity I will accommodate unless something I need to do! If she wants her own time / space, I give it to her. I'll do something with D11 most of the time!

I will go dim/dark or 180 or whatever works on bad behavior. Yes, I believe in punishing the MLCer for bad behavior. Dim/Dark is not just for me or my sanity; I do it to punish the $h!te out of her because she is a clinging boomerang and it works. She wants my attention so I take it away from her! If she goes shopping for stuff she don't need, and it makes the bills tight, I either make her take it back or I take money away from her and make it impossible for her to have "fun" for a while! This only had to happen a couple times. She acts like a teenager, get treated like one! We keep saying they have regressed to children / teenagers at this stage! I hear a lot about "just ignore it". If your 5 y/o was throwing a tantrum, would you just ignore it, or bust their ass? If my kids throw a tantrum on me, they get a warning and if it persists then punishment ensures! Same with the bratty MLCer; act like a little b!tc#; get treated like one! I personally don't believe this has any bearing on whether or not they will want to reconcile or affect paving the way! Just my opinion though!

OM/affairs - Made it VERY clear from the beginning this wont be tolerated! She got busted in two EA's. I gave her benefit of the doubt on EA1 after a good ass chewing. EA2 I went ballistic. Truth darted her fantasies; truth darted the affair down and how her OM's were $h!te! Told her from that point she lost all privacy and I would check her accounts anytime I wanted. If she ever denied me or changed a password she would lose her electronics/internet access int he house. Showed her the evidence I had collected on EA1 & 2. Told her if I found evidence of another EA or if I ever found out she had a PA, not only would I divorce her, but I would publicly humiliate her with the evidence! If she ever had a PA and I found out, I would have her charged under Georgia Adultery Law which is a misdemeanor and carries a $1000 fine and up to 1 year in county jail! If she wants to date or have a new man, she must divorce me. Told her this flat out and again, I wont stop her!


things I am working on:

Seduction Monster / Pity Monster - I guess when being a b!tc# didn't work she switched tactics on me and I have been a sucker for it since. I am working to stop this behavior; I am enabling her by letting her work my feelings for her! I have to stop "rescuing" her when she cries and stop satisfying her needs when she wants them (and its always only when she wants them).

Starting to be more independent and do things on my own. I am not so quick to jump on family outings or do things with her just because she invites me! I have to show her she will eventually los me!


Where am I in all this:

F**king Tired! I am ready for her to move out and do her work! I am at a point where it wont take me long to recover the loss. I am pretty sure I'll be the one that files if we divorce! I am waiting to see if a couple things happen and based on those will determine if I stay or go!

I am starting to pack things up & store them to make it easier when the time comes if that is the path I choose!

The psychologist thinks he will stay home because he is a really big conflict avoid-er and cannot sustain an affair relationship for too long because of this.  He does not want another woman, in the psychologist's opinion, just validation from another woman man that he she is attractive and needs to hear how wonderful he she is from her him. This is the main difference about the stay at home MLCer - conflict avoidance apparently is a big deal.

That is interesting ......... I can see my H in there. I never realized before what a big conflict avoider he is.

There, I fixed it a bit and that describes mine perfectly!

I am curious - did your MLCer ever live alone before you got married? My H never lived alone. He went from one parent to the other, lived with roommates and GF for a few years, lived with grandma, then with me. I on the other hand lived alone for several years.

No she did not. Plucked her right out of college and mommy & daddy home! I on the other hand had been on my own since I was 17 and had already served 4 years in the USMC! And it isn't like she didn't have any time to "party" with her friends either. She was pretty wild when I met her and had already been in college over 2 years!


OBO

[Songanddance]

Mean Monster - At first I was all pleasant, nice, blah blah...yeah whatever! I think it was the third time she rose up on me after we started therapy! She has what I call "b*tch mode" and was trying to rage monster at me! I had enough; I got right up in her face, backed her into a corner, put my finger in her face and proceeded to scold her like a child! Basically treated her like I would D11 if she got lippy with me! Told her she better never ever raise her voice to me like that or disrespect me again because I wasn't taking her bull$hit anymore! Yep, I intimidated her...and it worked! She still has b*tch mode, but keeps it to herself because I call her on it in a heartbeat!

I will go dim/dark or 180 or whatever works on bad behavior. Yes, I believe in punishing the MLCer for bad behavior. Dim/Dark is not just for me or my sanity; I do it to punish the $hit out of her because she is a clinging boomerang and it works. She wants my attention so I take it away from her! If she goes shopping for stuff she don't need, and it makes the bills tight, I either make her take it back or I take money away from her and make it impossible for her to have "fun" for a while! This only had to happen a couple times. She acts like a teenager, get treated like one! We keep saying they have regressed to children / teenagers at this stage! I hear a lot about "just ignore it". If your 5 y/o was throwing a tantrum, would you just ignore it, or bust their ass? If my kids throw a tantrum on me, they get a warning and if it persists then punishment ensures! Same with the bratty MLCer; act like a little b*tch; get treated like one! I personally don't believe this has any bearing on whether or not they will want to reconcile or affect paving the way! Just my opinion though!

If your 5 y/o was throwing a tantrum, would you just ignore it, or bust their ass?

Yep, I intimidated her...and it worked

OBO - This is really difficult for me to say because I really don't want to offend you but I find these two paragraphs rather frightening. As a parent of three D26,D23 and S16 I have experienced enough tantrums to know that ignore is not the answer but nor is busting their ass unless the law has been broken. 
When my H (MLCer) has tantrums I just put up my hand, say very calmly and firmly "No I'm not playing this game." and walk away or leave the house. I  just get out of his way.  That works too! It saves my energy and time.

I learned this through 30 years of teaching of high school children and have met quite a few challenging teenagers who certainly try as many ways as possible to " get my attention".  I have been called an "f...ing b!tc#" on several occasions - I have had a knife advance towards me and I have also had chairs thrown across the classroom.  On each occasion I have found it frightening but have never resorted to violence or extreme anger or even using their language - my concern has been the other children witnessing the "attack" and as a teacher I had to remain calm.
I'm not superwoman - I would go home, shake, cry and feel incredibly angry. I had to persuade myself that I had a duty to show up the following day for the other children.

MLCers can still choose to rant and rave but, like most children, they do it for effect and to get attention. That is probably the concept of "ignore" it. By rising to the bait you are giving the child what he or she wants - your attention.

I am concerned that you feel a need to wield such power over your MLCer W. It is almost as if you are fighting fire with fire and throwing in the odd accelerant to make a point.

Is it really worth your energy? Is it really worth being so angry? You have a D11 who you clearly adore and spend a lot of time with but what is she learning from you when she sees your anger with W?
 
I had no idea how much our children learn from us when this crisis erupts.
My anger and utter distress in the early days turned my S - then 15- into an incredibly angry young man who threatened to kill his father, who I found one night outside H's room with a knife. He has hit walls, destroyed doors, cut himself, and much more.

When I realised it was my responses or rather reactions to H causing the majority of this anger - I had to change everything I did and from then on S has calmed down. He hates what his father has done, he sees his father daily and he knows as well as I do that when H goes out - he goes to OW and he sometimes calls him out by just a simple truth dart. But it is now never done in anger.

I think you are taking a good course of action in working on your attachment issues - she is "working your feelings" and that is why you are perhaps very reactionary. I still adhere to that one line in one of RCR's articles quoting from an ex MLCer " When my wife stopped reacting, I started thinking."  That has always reminded me of the difference in responding not reacting.

[limitless]

I noticed this thread and thought to myself....I have NOTHING to add here.  My Ex left 2 1/2 months post bomb drop and has shown no indication of missing us or even wanting to return.....

So I have ZERO experience with a live-in MLCer.  (Except for those 2 1/2 excrutiatingly painful months!!!!)  At the time, I had no idea what was going on with him and I was full of guilt for having been the "worst wife ever."  It took quite a while before I finally realized that this was just projection and my Ex running away from home was really ALL ABOUT HIM.

That being said....the more and more I read from LBS with live-in MLCers...the  more I continue to believe that the live-in MLCer (and Clinging Boomerang) can cause more damage to the LBS than the On/Off-er and/or Vanisher.

When I first read about the contact type, I breathed a sign of relief when I believed that my Ex was a Boomerang and, although he would be gone for a while (I thought a few years.....lol) - I believed that he would Boomerang back and forth and wouldn't be gone "too far."  Well, as time went on - he began more On/Off -er.....to Vanisher.  It is very difficult to tell (early on from Bomb Drop) what type of contact level your MLCer will be.  They can cycle around - toward and away from you - over and over and over again.

The more the LBS "reads" into this cycling - the more damage we can allow....the more damage to US.

I really feel for the LBS with MLCers at home...or with Clingers.  It must be so very difficult to detach from their antics when they are seldom out of your face.

OBO - as your your post.....
As Songanddance noted in her very spot on post - your post is very concerning.  It drips of anger and resentment and fear.  It looks like that to me, because I have felt very much like you describe and, when I look at myself, I know that I was angry, resentful, and full of fear - when I felt those very same feelings and with thoughts of "taming" my Ex....and/or having my revenge.

Your post concerns me - as it appears to me that you believe that you have some control over what she will do or say - based upon how you treat her.  Your Ex has reacted to your statements and unmasked threats (let's sell the wedding ring) in the manner that you would have hoped.  Her reaction is the one that I would have wished my Ex had - when I would call his bluff.  But, the truth of the matter is - YOU HAVE NO CONTROL over her.  None.  Even if it appears so right now....there is zero control.  Zip. Nada.

We can only control ourselves.  And sometimes, for me, that is a really difficult thing.  I struggle with my own feelings of sadness, anger, resentment, etc. over my Ex's abandonment.  Allowing all these thoughts into my head isn't good for me.  It really eats me up inside.  My good friend used to ask me a question.....when I would get like this.  "Why are you being a slum lord?"  she would ask.  Why do you allow him so much space in your head? 

OBO - No Contact is for us.  Not punishment for the MLCer.  If that is how you are using No Contact...it is likely to backfire on you. 

You sound like you are really hurting....and I am very sorry that that is so.  These MLCers can hurt us so deeply with their words and actions....as they can cut us deep with their lack of feelings, love, consideration, respect...etc. for us.  It is shocking that these people, who we loved more than life itself - could treat us so shabbily.  But, story after story is consistent.  MLCers show that they really don't care about anyone - but themselves.

These are self absorbed, depressed, and confused people.  They lash out at their spouse - as we are the closest to them.....just as a teenager will lash out at his or her parent. 

OBO - read the articles about detaching, with love.  Read about self care.  Take care of yourself.  Make the decisions that you need to make for your life based on what is best for you and your kids...not to punish her.  Believe me.....MLCers end up punishing themselves more than we could ever punish them.  They pay for it - with all they lose....much more than anything we could ever do or say.

All that anger...that hurt......you have inside you.....don't allow it to turn you into an angry, bitter, person.

It will be okay.  You will be okay. 

Take care,

L

[LearningIamOk]

I am also of the thought that confronting an angry MLCer is not a good approach. And yes, I stepped over tantrumming children, I have 4, many, many times.

You catch more flies with honey. I have told my H in the past when he was Monstering that it obviously wasn't a good time for him to talk at the moment. That he should leave and we would talk when he was in a better mood.

NO CONTACT is stated by RCR to be for the benefit of the LBS and NEVER a punishment. To use it as such is emotional abuse in my mind. It smacks of conditional love. We are taught the Unconditionals here. My own mother used conditional love on me and my 4 sisters. Meet her conditions and she loved you. Screw up and she withdrew her love and you had to start on the bottom of the ladder to work your way up into her good graces. Her pet phrase was "if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy".

I ended up in a "conditional marriage". As long as H was allowed to do as he pleased all was well. When I started becoming "demanding" in his mind, I was difficult and a b!t*h. He told me he felt like he had a collar around his neck. Yet he traveled to different states to watch his favorite NFL team play and wouldn't even call me.

I tried so hard to win his love. I changed into 5 different people over the last 8 or 9 years and he didn't like one of them. I finally started changing into me. I let him go. I didn't stalk him. I quit the gym where he met his Spin instructor affair partner. I gave him plenty of space and time. He hasn't changed. He's still miserable. I on the other hand, have evolved into quite a confident and loving person.

The Focus OBO, needs to be on you and your growth. You are too fixated on your W and her cycling. You get hoovered into the drama and then lose it. I get your military background, but she is not a soldier and you are not her commanding officer. You are supposed to be a team, partners, equals. Start treating her like that when she lashes out. Validate her feelings with "I'm sorry you feel that way". It doesn't mean you agree with her, but that you are listening that she is upset about something.