[Trustandlove]

Hi,

There has been a bit of discussion here lately about the MLCer's guilt -- Still said that her H cleaned their kitchen, HB said her H did things like that out of guilt, etc.

My sitch is that H has on a number of occasions mentioned, or possibly let slip, that he feels enormous guilt.  About a month ago he said on the phone that he had felt guilty enough over having abandoned his family, that he had cried enough, that guilt was a useless emotion and he just wasn't going to have it any more. 

Because, botton line, he doesn't want to consider us staying together, and that won't change. 

I also know that things that I have said have only served to increase his guilt, whether I intended for that to happen or not. 

So this discussion is two-fold:  one, how does the guilt work in them?  In my case my H seems to keep running, because feeling guilty isn't nice, so he keeps on justifying his actions and then seeking pleasurable things that make him feel good and take his mind off it.  Replay actions, it would seem. 

I understand that guilt is useless because it keeps you from finding a solution to the problem.  You don't want to feel guilty, so you do things to cover it rather than admit your wrong and work to find a solution. 

But how does it work in an MLCer?  And the second part, how do we act?   

I take it that we can't say outright that the way to get rid of guilt is to acknowledge the wrong and work to find the solution.  Well, maybe we can in some situations, but I think I've probably talked about things like that enough to him. 

My H has said that he feels guilty about our son, so does my asking to talk about him and getting H to take more responsibility there help or just make him feel more guilty? 

RCR talks about encouraging healty guilt, I'd like to hear more about that. 

[Love being on higher grounds]

T and L,

my h has never used the word guilt, but it is written all over his face...he always says that things make him feel like crap...

I would like to hear more also, he does TONS of stuff for us, and around the house etc...

sorry I dont have any great advice, but yes, there are others thinking of this very subject...

hugs and love,
L

[In this for ME]

I've had him offer to do a couple of things but declined because I didn't want to help him releive his gulit.

I'm kind of feeling that with an ow in the picture in my situation that just simply gives them more steam to go back and contnue with her.
Also I know she's weak and I want him to see the trade off he's made for some clingy, demanding, insecure, idiot.
I've had to get stronger the last couple of years of our marriage as he pursuing other interests so for me to refuse his help has been my MO.

I don't know if that's something I should work on changing but I find it really hard to ask for help as a rule.

[What Next]

T&L

My H expressed guilt from the start, i.e. from BD.  He is a man consumed by guilt though.  All of our married life he wrestled with demons from his childhood and young adulthood where he felt he had let people down.  I know this will be eating him alive right now. 

He told me over the phone and by email that the guilt is huge.  That he needs time to 'come to terms' with it but feels he is not getting the time.  My worry is he will come to terms with it, in the same way he has spent is whole life avoiding it, that is he will run physically and emotionally from the issue.  He will pidgeon hole me and my girls as he has done his mother and other people he has felt emotionally connected to in the past.

I don't like to hear about his guilt because I know that is an emotion he has taught himself to live with, not resolve.  His coping mechanism is to run away, hence our emmigration to Australia and his perceived happy existance out there, he didn't have to face the people he felt he had hurt or was hurt by.  My children and I just fall into that category now.

My prayers are that he will learn to let go of what holds him back and that he will find the peace (happiness) he has been seeking his whole life.

For what it's worth my H never saw my independence or strength as a positive.  He liked that I needed him to do things but I came from a family which I could not rely on and had developed a coping mechanism of my own: self-reliance!  I think that was hard for him and on my personal journey I am beginning to see how that would have hurt him. Hindsight eh!

[Trustandlove]

Yes, my H's response is to just go away, he is a prime conflict-avoider.  But unlike yours, HA, mine always liked my independence and strength, or so I thought.  One of the things that he doesn't want to do in MLC it take care of me -- a number of times he has accused me of just wanting him to take care of me.  The first Christmas he was gone I became terribly ill.  He did spend that Christmas with us; at the time I thought it would help him come home sooner, and he said that he thought I became ill because I wanted him to take care of me. 

He's also said that in regards to my response to his changing job situation-- when I asked what the impact on the family would be, he said that all I was saying was to "take care of me". 

Well, I thought it was because my children had picked up a nasty bug at school, and I do know that my defences were low because of all this, but still.....

But that got off the subject, unless it's also to show that he feels guilt over not, or the possibility of not, providing for us.  At the same time he says he's willing to work for 5 more years, then wants the ability to lead an alternative lifestyle.  I.e. w/o responsibility. 

But back to guilt.....  I'm hoping RCR will chime in here.....

But yes, the children and I do fall into the category of people he has hurt, so he just doesn't want to be reminded of that.   

So what do we do?  Does talking about the children make it worse?  I've asked for a conversation regarding our son; will see how that goes. 

[What Next]

T&L

I guess there is just no knowing what works or what they expect from us!  I firmly believe in the spewing as projections of what they see in themselves.  If my H didn't like my strength I think he was really saying he didn't like how he cut off from those around Him! I dont know maybe I'm wrong but I am trying not to take on too much of his guilt!  Dealing with my own is enough.

Take care and I too would be interested in other's comments here.

[In this for ME]

I've come acroos a couple of situatons in the past few weeks where my guilt which doesn't involve the situation in letting a couple of friends down for things they needed me for tuned me into what it feels like but probably on a much smaller scale.
 It's only been 4 months since BD and I'm living in another house.
I have one friend who needed her cats taken care of while she went away for a couple of days she insists that I spend the night at her house. Well I couldn't get the girls to come with me and they've been through enough but I couldn't sleep at my friends house kowning the girls who are 14 and 17 were alone at my house. So I'd leave about midnight and go back around 4 am.

Then this week another friend wanted me to spend two nights with her mother and help her feed thier animals. Again the girls would be alone one night as the next morning they were leaving for NYC with H.
I got over there the first night and the fear of leaing them alone consumed me so I broke down in a puddle of tears. My friends mom said it was OK if I just helped her feed the animals then go home. I'm only a block away from my own house.

The next night I did just fine as the girls were gone.

I know where the guilt stems from; my own childhood when my mother used to leave me alone. But even in that understanding and knowing my girls know I love them I could not overcome the fear of them thinking I was abandoning them.
I've had to tell both friends they need to look elsewhere for help in their lives as I cannot foresee when I will feel secure enough to do these things for them again.
I have very little confidence and even a less sense of security at the moment.

[mercury]

I believe some of replay behavior is based on running and hiding from guilt, the rest from themselves.  OW/OM are another symptom of mlc and they run to them to lesson their guilt because they too are committing horrible acts, they then can't put any guilt on the mlc and they help justify what they have done.

[OldPilot]

But back to guilt.....  I'm hoping RCR will chime in here.....

But yes, the children and I do fall into the category of people he has hurt, so he just doesn't want to be reminded of that.   

So what do we do?  Does talking about the children make it worse?  I've asked for a conversation regarding our son; will see how that goes.

I think the point becomes is that there is NOTHING you can DO to control the MLC'er.

Have good boundaries that protect you and your children if neccessary and let them go to work on themselves.

Do not give them any reason to project their guilt onto someone else.

That is all you can do, nothing more.

MY .02

[In this for ME]

I wonder if the capacity to understand thier own guilt ever comes into play somewhere..during acceptance maybe??
If it starts with understanding why they did what they did (or are doing what they do) and forgiving themselves first then would that ease some of it?
As far as seeking forgiveness;
 I'm pretty sure if my H ever evolved enough to realize that this might help AFTER he forgave himself he might do it but his personality at present still is he has a right to his own life. Which at the present time is less happy than it was with his family intact.
 Although the signs are all there that he is understanding the hurt and pain he has caused everyone in this mess in his emails and on the phone..but not in person yet.