[Rollercoasterider]

My worry is he will come to terms with it, in the same way he has spent is whole life avoiding it, that is he will run physically and emotionally from the issue.

That will not be coming to terms with it.

I've come across a couple of situations in the past few weeks where my guilt which doesn't involve the situation in letting a couple of friends down for things they needed me for
I have one friend who needed her cats taken care of while she went away for a couple of days she insists that I spend the night at her house…I couldn't sleep at my friends house knowing the girls who are 14 and 17 were alone at my house. So I'd leave about midnight and go back around 4 am.
Then this week another friend wanted me to spend two nights with her mother and help her feed their animals.
I got over there the first night and the fear of leaing them alone consumed me so I broke down in a puddle of tears.I've had to tell both friends they need to look elsewhere for help in their lives as I cannot foresee when I will feel secure enough to do these things for them again.

In this for the Long Haul,
You initially described this as guilt over letting down your friends, but what is paralyzing you is the feeling you are abandoning your daughters, one of whom is only 14. You seem to think that this is a problem that means something is wrong with you, and that it should be all right to leave your daughters alone for the night. I don’t have kids yet, but I don’t think that a 14 year old should be home alone through the night. Both of your friend’s requests were inappropriate; it was unfair of them to ask that you not stay at your own house. Please don’ feel guilty for letting these friend’s down; the kitties can handle a night alone; your daughter should not have to handle it yet; your feelings were justified.

It makes me wonder if you have problems setting boundaries and saying no. Do you volunteer for more projects than you can handle, or because you may have done so in the past does everyone just come to you asking for favours? Are you known as the one people can rely or depend upon? Do you have a need to please and do people take advantage of this?

I wonder if the capacity to understand their own guilt ever comes into play somewhere..during acceptance maybe??

To understand is different than to acknowledge and accept. Sure, some will eventually understand and hopefully most will acknowledge and accept. But no one understands everything about their personal motivations; we are all a mystery to ourselves.

Someday when your MLCers are normal this MLC Monster will be a so foreign to them that they will not be able to relate. They may not know or recall why they did what they are doing. Some may remember words and incidents, but not emotions and motivations.

They are filled to overflowing with guilt... my husband has called himself terrible, vile names over his guilt. He has flat out told me that he feels ok about himself until he gets around me and then he feels horrible because of what he has done and is doing to me and the kids. This is what RCR calls "healthy guilt". It is appropriate for him to feel it as a consequence for his behaviors.
Up until about 2 weeks ago, despite my best intentions, I have ADDED to his guilt by getting sucked in to proclaiming how hurt my feelings are... by crying (can't always help it) by getting angry or frustrated. At the same time MY reactions added to his guilt, they ALSO ALLOWED HIM TO JUSTIFY LEAVING. This is "toxic guilt" if I remember my RCR coaching... What his OW does is pile emotional blackmail "toxic guilt" on top of his healthy guilt.

Abo$l()tely.
TrustandLove, you wanted me to chime in, but LettingGo answered beautifully in my place.

I have vowed to prop up my husband's self-esteem in a healthy way

This is believing in your MLCer, which is especially important when he does not believe in himself.

They start to have an insight into the mess they have made and so increase guilt at the awakening at the end of replay. When they slip into liminality (depression) and withdrawal the full impact of what they have done and the mess they have caused hits them full force. The guilt is overwhelming as they now realise it is their issues that have caused this not the spouse.

This is true. Though they feel their guilt prior to Liminality, it causes them to run. But in Liminality they break open and it grabs them. It paralyzes them from the high-energy antics of Replay

Your H is in early replay and therefore is 'happy and content'. He won't have any guilt yet until the rose coloured glases slip and he starts to relaise that his new life isn't making him happy but adding to his sadness.

I will elaborate more on what I am about to say after reviewing HeartsBlessing’s comments. MLCers have guilt in Replay. It is more accurate to say that they will not acknowledge or accept it and may not recognize it. Replay is Escape & Avoid, but that does not mean they are not feeling their guilt

I like LG's thoughtful post, on what she does, or lets him do -- I now see that what I thought was reconnection, the doing of things around our house and noticing things that he hadn't for ages, was all guilt, not reconnection.

You make an excellent point. I don’t know that I have anything to add, but by including your comment I will be adding it to my note-files for future reference. I may need to add this insight to the Reconnection information.

True guilt is not felt until they reach the awakening within Replay, and begin to see the damage they've done; like someone said the rose colored glasses begin to slip downward.
Healthy guilt is such they "own" their wrongs; eventually working through, and doing a true facing of their part in the hurt they have caused the LBS. Doesn't come until later in the crisis; Depression or even as late as Withdrawal.
The stirrings of this guilt, plants its seeds in the Awakening process.
Before then, they are aware they've done wrong, and guilt is shown; but they do nothing but keep trying to cover it all up until it literally begins to catch up with them.

I think that HB and I are seeing the same thing but explaining it differently. First let me start by saying that I did not coin the term toxic guilt. It can be found in many places. I think I first found it in John Bradshaw’s book, Healing the Shame that Binds You. I was going to begin by defining guilt, but as I began to consider what to say I asked myself—haven’t I done this? Well, yes! I also have sourced Bradshaw in one of my articles. I discuss Guilt and Toxic Guilt in my series about Ericksonian Human Development. They are discussed for Stage III. In that series each stage description article is followed by an article describing midlife regression to that stage—Guilt for Stage III.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/lifecycleanddevelopment-erikerikson-stage3.html

For those of you who don’t want to read it all, here are my definitions for Guilt and Toxic Guilt from the article.

Guilt: Emotion or cognition resulting from the actual or perceived violation of a personal or cultural moral standard often combined with a sense of self-reproach for the misbehavior. Unlike shame it is not a reflection if identity, but rather is about behavior and personal and cultural values.
Guilt is not bad; it is a healthy component that enables empathy--sociopaths and narcissists are incapable of feeling guilt or remorse prevents them from feeling empathy. Guilt acts as our conscience and makes us accountable for our actions.

Toxic Guilt: Guilt is healthy when it is for personal misdeeds and toxic when a person assumes blame for what is outside his power and control. Any guilt from an external source is toxic, people with external guilt learn that everything is their fault and learn to create their own guilt based on self-blame for the feelings, choices and mistakes of others.

The previous article in the series, Midlife Regression for Stage II, references Bradshaw because it has a table from his book.

HB says that before Awakening guilt is shown. Yes, I guess that is what I call guilt rather than phrasing is as being shown—but it distills to the same thing. They see and feel their guilt and run from it. It is a cause of cycling behaviour. What HB is describing as True guilt, I see as actions—pre-resolution and resolution actions. They are starting to acknowledge their guilt. But acknowledgement of guilt is not the guilt itself; it is an action resulting from having/feeling guilt. In Replay the guilt overwhelms and adds to their sense of burden. In Liminality they are tired; their energy is spent and they no longer have enough to continue to Escape & Avoid. Because they do not have the energy to fight it off, their guilt is able to break through to them.

Guilt is just guilt, it is not about whether they own their wrongs—that is an active consequence or result of guilt. It is not the only result, but it is a desired result. Avoidance is an example of a negative result.

I guess I just didn’t like the term true guilt because I know Sweetheart was immersed in and overwhelmed by guilt from the start. It may be part of what kept him as a Clinging Boomerang—though that has many roots. In my definition I said it is often combined with a sense of self-reproach. That is I think what HB is talking about—though avoidance is also a form of self-reproach.

Sweetheart still feels guilty. He’s doing well, but it may always be there. When we received the infertility diagnosis, he felt it. We are having infertility problems because I am prematurely menopausal—perimenopause now. Those years he spent in MLC may have been the last years I was fertile. My Mom was the same, so my early menopause was not caused by the stress of the MLC, but his guilt is not toxic either. He is not blaming himself for me being in menopause; he’s blaming himself for not taking advantage of the fertility I had when I had it.

I’ve always joked that Sweetheart is a guilty catholic. Years ago one of his siblings received birthday card about it.
Front: So you’re catholic.
Inside: Guilty Birthday
I thought it was hilarious because it was so true.

The alienator understood that about him. She told him that she was practically a virgin. Yeah, that’s like kind of pregnant. But he initially bought into it—he bragged about it to me in the beginning. (The alienator was 41 and had a grown daughter!) I was able to use that guilt as part of my Stand. I did not have to tell him how he should feel—that would have been a judgment—and I was not going to tell him about how his actions were responsible for my pain—that would have been toxic guilt. I reinforced his knowledge that he was doing something he knew to be wrong—Ericksonian language (Different Erickson than from the Stages of Human Development). For it to work I had to leave me out of it.

does anyone else have their MLC er kinda go back and forth between showing a bit of guilt/shame, and then right back to justifying all of their actions?
just wondering...this NEVER happened in the beginning, but the further down the road we go, the more I am noticing this...
example...I was without a vehicle for 3 months, H recently bought me one and was almost excited as I was, also seemed proud that he was able to do it...
now, he is using the fact that he bought me this vehicle as...He didnt have to help me, he was trying to be nice..etc etc...

Yes, that is a normal part of cycling.

Here is an excerpt from
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/balancing-love_validation.html.

Emotions and Memory
MLCers operate on pure emotions—how they feel. They store memories in emotional files. Behaviour is not real and thus not remembered if the MLCer has no present emotional affinity for the behaviour. He will contradict his past emotions that contradict the foundation of present emotions, claiming the previous emotions must have been false. An MLCer who has returned multiple times may make the same claims each time, yet will deny the validity of the previous claims when the behaviour is brought to his attention. In his mind, he cannot have felt this way previously when returning, because he would not have left, therefore he must have returned for a different reason—commonly he will blame guilt. He is incapable of understanding any emotional state other than the present.

What that means is your feels he must justify his reasons. He may have cycled and no longer feels the same and thus he may also no longer remember the feelings and if he doesn’t remember how he felt he must make up a reason for why he acted as he did.

[Trustandlove]

Thank you for commenting, RCR.    I do find some of it goes round in circles, so I've tried to recap here: 

My own definition of guilt:  what you feel if you’ve done something that goes against your own personal code of behaviour.

To use a non-MLC example, some people feel guilt over having smacked (spanked) a child, depending on whether or not they feel that smacking is wrong. 

So they feel guilt throughout replay.

Activities such as cleaning the house, attending to chores, noticing things that need to be done, etc., can be guilt rather than reconnection

He actively says that he feels guilty, but doesn’t do anything, saying that he’s felt guilty enough, he’s cried enough, and he’s just not going to do it any more, as guilt is a useless emotion.   If I’ve got it right, that’s still Escape and Avoid.  They continue to Escape and Avoid in order to not face their guilt, or because of their guilt? 

I use the words “because of” because of what I read in my CBT book -- guilt is good if you own up to what you have done and work to find a solution, otherwise, since it is an unpleasant emotion, you keep looking for ways to not feel it, so you keep finding reasons to justify your behaviour.

Is there a good response when he talks about feeling guilt?  For when he says that it is a useless emotion?  I’ve been trying to distill what that CBT books says about it into a soundbite, but it keeps on escaping me. 

It says:

The less guilt you have, the more effectively you can correct the problem.  If you feel guilty, you tend to react defensively and counterattack because the feeling of being a “bad person” is so odious.  Guilt engages you in a coverup operation; you close your ears to any criticism because you can’t bear to be wrong because it feels so terrible. 

If you admit your wrong action and seek to change, you don’t have to think of yourself as bad. 

To relieve guilt, one needs to ask oneself: 

1 -- did I consciously and willfully do something ‘‘bad”, “unfair” or needlessly hurtful that I shouldn’t have?  (or am I irrationally expecting myself to be perfect , all-knowing and all-powerful)

2 -- ask if I am labelling myself a bad or tainted person because of this action?

3-- Am I feeling a realistic regret or remorse, which results from an empathic awareness of the negative impact of my action?

4 -- Am I learning from my error and developing a strategy for change? Or am I ruminating non-productively or continuing with even more destructive behaviour? 


So can that all be distilled into a soundbite to use if the opportunity arises?  A response that isn’t just “you choose your feelings”?

LG, you're good at this.....

[In this for ME]

Hi RCR

As a rule I don't do anything I really don't want to do I have no problem saying no to any request made by friends, my boss, or even the girls that I am not comfortable with. BUT I used to be a BIG people pleaser..H used to get relly pissed off when I did this but when I brought up all the things I'd do for him he'd shut up. He battled me for having friends for the first 10 years of our relationship. His attitude was "Who needs other peoples problems?"

I have issues of abandonmnet due to my childhood and was left alone a lot and sometimes at night and that fear eats me alive when it comes to my kids.

These friends asked me back in July after the BD if I might be able to do this in OCT. I figured by then I would be feeling more secure but instead I feel less secure. I have done these things for them in the past so I thought it would really be no problem.

I struggle almost daily with fear in differnt degrees. Sometimes it paralizes me..I get too afraid to make any decisions, pay bills, or even walk out the front door.

Now Ex-H has suggested he come here for Thanksgiving.. I battled with myself yesterday until I finally gave up and took a half a pill for anxiety. So I guess his guilt is working on him? We've only been divorced a month and 1/2.

[Still]

This is true. Though they feel their guilt prior to Liminality, it causes them to run.

RCR,

This really hit close to home. I wonder if this is why my H is suddenly bent on getting a divorce....really planning it this time.

I have noticed that anytime I thank him for anything, he gets angry and more disrespectful. He has said over and over again that "if he shows me kindness, I think things will be okay between us and they will not. " For the life of me, I can't figure out why he says that all the time. I have never pushed any issues....given him his space round the clock.

I was out of town and he cleaned the house and mailed some items for me. Pre-MLC, he would have done these things, but not anymore. I thanked him via text. He never responded....two days later he is angry and wants a divorce.

Truly up is down and down is up.

[justkeepmoving]

Wow, this MLC is crazy stuff.  I'm grateful that I have NC with my H because I don't think I could move forward with this sit if I did.  I don't know if in the future my h will gravitate back to me but I think with what I've read and learned here from all of you I think I will be better prepared.  Just the past 2 days I have had an "aha moment".  My rose-colored glasses are off and I see my H and our M for what I thought it was and for what it actually was.  I know now that I don't want to go back to that place or that me again.  Time will only tell !!

[In this for ME]

I agree..I would NEVER go back to that marriage either..I told him the other day maybe it all did need to be burned down. He's done a good job of it; but the pain he contunies to cause our children is uneccssary.

Their world has been turned upside down and although our marriage was far from perfect for either one of us I'm forming the opinion that a lousy marriage was better than me having to watch the children suffer this way. He doesn't suffer the high points of that.

I think he has woke up a little more to what he has done especially involving an ow.

He's suggested spending Thanksgiving with us and I told him yes.

[Trustandlove]

I told my H about 9 months in that "maybe this had to happen"; I meant in order for us to get ourselves back on track. We had both already said before that that we didn't want to go back to the marriage the way it was.   He was visibly relieved; we started talking then, but then in one conversation I let my own hurt take over, and started telling him where he was wrong....  it all went pear-shaped from there.

So I have a lot of guilt about that, as well.  That I, despite having intuitively done quite a lot "right" before this site was around, still totally screwed it up.  Had I understood about things I may have done so much better.  I piled on guilt rather than listened and validated. 

I plan to forgive myself, btw...

But that's another topic....

[Still]

None of us got it "right" to begin with, T&L.

I bought all kinds of save your marriage books, downloads, subscriptions.....tried all those techniques....which completely backfired.

MLC is an entirely different animal. Nothing the textbooks tell you about relationships can address the unpredictability of a person in MLC. I have yet to read a relationship book that says to do the exact opposite of what you have been doing....though we know that is often the case with an MLC'er.

As HB says, "it is still a crapshoot". We don't know the outcome until it happens. There is no way to say that one method will repair things and that another won't. The issue is within the MLC'er. They have to be willing to accept that.

Don't be so hard on yourself. We all made plenty of mistakes. Ultimately, if it is God's will that our marriages will be restored, none of that will matter.

[In this for ME]

I've tried REALLY hard not to bring up where he was wrong..we did enough of that in the marriage.
I told him at one point I knew things were really bad and I wanted to leave just for a short time to "get my head on staright" But I knew he would never allow it. He was quiet about that as he knew that would be the way he would react.
I told him the marrage was this huge messy ball of string and I could not find the end of it so we could rewind it back up together. And that evrything else kept going around in circles and I had to take control  more and I never wanted to.

 He laughed at that as though I was lying. I firmly told him it was the truth I never wanted control I was tired of being responsible for every single thing.

BUT I did not dump on him that I had to do all this because he was acting like a misbehaved teenager.

Part of how I talk to him mostly involves stopping short of where I wouldn't have before. Before both barrels come out and I blast him. I did that for a long time and I can almost feel it when I get to that point and I make myself stop.

[Still]

....and I have always been the opposite. I almost never spoke my mind about things that bothered me. For the most part, my irritation would pass.

My H and I rarely argued. I think we were both good at supressing our emotions. My emotions were fleeting and his were long lasting. He would be upset by something and act upset for several days. He wouldn't talk to me about it.

So, I really felt I always had the end of the string and I just kept in neatly wound. I thought, at the end of the day, all issues were resolved. In my head, I had laid them to rest.

So MLC comes along.....he decides to resurrect 22 years of emotions he had been feeling, but not displaying.

The one statement he made that has hurt me almost as much as the ILYBINILWY speech was when he said, "We never got this marriage thing right."