[xyzcf]

A gift is something that you wish to give to another..no strings attached. I am leaving a gift for my H (he'll be in the house while I am away in Canada) and cookies and muffins....because I still care about him. He has given me nothing is such a long time (and I'm not talking about material stuff) but that's just not me.

In a way, it's the only thing I can do to pave the way..since I do not contact him or see him. It is a small reminder that I still love him..I feel like I just want to do what I feel is right.....ok, so I probably want to tug a bit at his heartstrings too.

Do what feels right to you.

[limitless]

I got my H some cologne.  I will send it with the kids - when they go to see him and open presents.
My kids will also each get him a gift.  My S16 - wants to give him a "World's Greatest Dad" coffee cup.  (As you can see, my S is very bitter).  I will have the girls pick out something for him - as his gift idea (while pretty funny) is inappropriate.
I am pretty sure that my H will get something for me (he was always BIG on Christmas and gifts).  Or, at least, some things for me from the kids.  (They are supposed to go shopping tomorrow evening).
I am angry and hostile about Christmas and my H's selfishness.  (Actually I am hurt and sad - but anger seems to help keep me from crying - so I am opting for anger).
It's really up to you.  Get him a gift or not.  I actually wanted to get him SOMETHING.  I love him.  I care about him.  I would get a gift for someone I love and care about.  Any, maybe, it will Pave the Way.  Show that I hold no resentment - only unconditional love.  Who knows?

This Christmas season is a difficult time to go through this c&*p.

Hugs to all,

L

[Glimmer]

Well my Hs imagination knows no bounds. Guess what, he has bought exactly the same for everyone as he did last year. Book tokens, again boasting how he did it all in under an hour.  So you can see, how much he is thinking of everyone else again this Christmas.  We have actually bought him a gift. I will add my name to it along with the girls. I do still love him and I know I will miss him so much this year, it is our first Christmas apart.  Last year he had announced after just a few weeks away that he wanted to come home, so he was invited for Christmas day and we spent  the day as a family as usual. This will be our first in 20years that we are not together.

I am really not looking forward to it and will be glad when it is over. I try to put a on a brave face for the sake of the girls, but I am afraid they know me too well and it isn't working.

H has been in contact with eldest D today. Said he was shopping for a gift for me.  I really hope OW wasn't with him whilst he was out buying it. He does usually spend the weekend with her. That will just be too much for me to take, if she helped him choose whatever he has bought.  Why on earth could he not have asked our Ds to help him buy something for me, they would have loved to do that. For goodness sake how dense are these MLCers brains, they really have no idea how much they hurt peoples feelings do they.

[forthetrees]

Greetings,
My 2 cents: Go with the option that will maintain the most joyful atmosphere in your home. It is supposed to be a special day; if H´s presence is going to take away from that, then no, don´t invite. If his presence will add joy to the day, then invite. I think he´s lost the choice of being invited for the sake of having a place to go or even to be with his kids. At this point, what will bring you and your kids the most peaceful day? Opt for that.

I did get a gift for H, but not an expensive one, rather one that I have given every year- a pair of xmas socks and pjs. Just b/c he tossed the vows out the window doesn´t mean that I have tossed the vows out the window. Thus, a tradition continues.

Cyberhug,
FTT

[rememberer]

I have helped my D's choose and buy gifts from them to him.

I think I will have a couple of nice bottles of wine on hand and wrapped in a  wine Christmas box, and if he ends up having something for me, I will at least not be empty- handed to give him something, and he likes his wine(especially now!) That to me seems like a friendly token and not too personal. I'm not trying to be childish,( tit for tat and all that) but I guess I'm trying to mirror his behaviour. If he has something for me, then I will give him the wine. I don't want to be mean but I also want to show him that I'm not sitting here pining and that I've accepted the situation as it stands.

I guess we must all do what we feel is right. This is what is comfortable for me, and my kids don't have much money of their own so, I in fact had to buy the gifts from them to him.

[Glimmer]

Well m-in-l just phone to ask again had I heard what Hs plans were for Christmas day. She is aware of the letters we sent him letting him know we wanted to spend it without him.  Her hands are tied also, as they are going to Hs brothers family for the day.

I feel a little sorry for him, but he chose OW over his family so now he must face the consequences.  He will more than likely already have arrangements made, but I would be the last person he would tell, and it will be his first Christmas away from his kids.  She said it would serve him right if he had to eat a TV dinner on his own, giving him plenty of time to think about his choices.  She also said again how ashamed and embarassed she was over the way he was treating everyone.  To this day he has never said a word to his parents about what he has done, everything they know of the situation they have learnt from me.

This makes me rather angry as I have been left with the mess of telling people where we live what has gone on. Even friends and neighbours are only aware of what I have told them. We are still receiving Christmas cards addressed to the 4 of us. Even his work colleagues are including all of us on Christmas cards. Friends of his have phoned from time to time to speak to him, and again I have had to tell them what the situation is, leaving them utterly shocked as he had never been in touch to let them know. Also, quite upsetting for me having to break the news.

I hope he and OW both get the Christmas they deserve. HO HO HO!!

[justasking]

Glimmer

You have done all you can now. You are right these are now his consequences of his decisions and he can't blame you.

My H has also used me to justify being with OW and her family for Christmas day. He also told the children it was my fault. Luckily they know the situation and don't believe him. I know the guilt will be overwhelming as he watches her neices and nephews opening their presents Christmas morning while he's not with his. But that is his decision and nothing I can do it's his journey.

But I think Christmas will be part of the issues they have to look at in the long term.

We are also having cards from HIS family with his name on............

Have a lovely Christmas and big hugs to you and your family.

xx

[Phoenix]

Hi All,
As many know, my H has been having an 8-month physical affair (longer for EA, I assume) with my long-time "close friend."  He continued his antics under the nose of our D13 (now 14) while living under the same roof with us for seven of those months.  Despite telling him he could not continue to live with us while having an affair, staying out all night or all weekend  with OW, taking OW on business trips we used to go on with him, living in the guest room with the door shut much of the time, not speaking to us, and not looking at or speaking to daughter, yelling at, swearing at and scaring her with his alien behavior, etc., he did not move out until 6 weeks ago.  He was angry about having to move out while we "get to stay in the house," did not say good-bye to D, nor say anything else.  He left while we were out of the house and that was it.  After hearing nothing for 2.5 weeks, he sent an email asking how D is and saying she needs counseling.  All the while he is acting nuts and won't seek help.  Geesh! Six weeks have now passed without us seeing him and D has NO desire to. Once he moved out she said she "felt alive again," "can breathe again," and told me she has stopped grinding her teeth and having nightmares and is recovering her appetite.  She is also in counseling.

The problem is that H keeps asking about her counseling, who she is seeing, etc. D.does not want this discussed with him at all and does not want H discussing any aspect of her with the OW.  D will not communicate with him, and has told him multiple times previously that she "cannot have any relationship with him as long as he has any contact with the OW." H then turns around and defends OW and tells daughter how much OW loves and cares about her.  This makes D want to throw up and scream.  OW was someone D trusted as well and she feels betrayed by both father and OW and has not budged once in 8 months in terms of her resolve not to have any relationship with them.  She says she does not miss her father at all as she does not know and cannot stand the person he has become, and feels only relief and an absence of anxiety and misery since H left.

H sent her a mushy Valentine card which she said was laughable, completely hypocritical to what he is doing and how he treated her, and she wouldn't even finish reading it.  Then he left a bag from his recent business trip filled with lip gloss, soap and a candle.  There was no note, but we assume it is for D. She wants none of it and wishes he would stop this.  She also said, "I'm sure he got HER some of this as well (as D knows he used to get for me). Yuck!"

D's Counselor has said she is one of the most mature, grounded, clear, mentally healthy people she has ever worked with and that counseling is optional for her.  She also said D has healthy boundaries regarding her father and good reason for her decision not to see him for now. 

So here are the questions: How do I get H off my back about counseling and not have to answer his questions?  He already knows that D does not want this discussed with him and in turn OW. 

What do I do when he starts to push seeing D when she has NO desire and gets physically sick and distraught at the thought of it?  Yes, H knows this.

How does D handle cards and gifts that she does not want, that do not feel authentic or honest to her at all and that she sees as manipulative.  She is very polite, but does not reciprocate or thank him, because she does not want to open the door to communication with him and does not want to send mixed messages.

I feel caught in the middle between a traumatized D who just wants him away and to leave her completely alone and at peace, and risking pushing him to take legal action to force visitation.   He is in total denial about her resolve and its depth, and will not accept or respect her feelings or wishes.  He thinks he and OW are gong to create a life with her three kids and our D being a part of it for some portion of the time, and our D is adamant that this will not happen and is not something she has any interest in what so ever.  She actually wants to move out of town to get away from him, OW, and our social group that is all aware of this mess, thanks to the big mouth of OW, and just start over.

Advice?
Phoenix


 

[Voyager]

Hi Phoenix,
I did a bit of a double take when i saw this thread pop up again!

D's Counselor has said she is one of the most mature, grounded, clear, mentally healthy people she has ever worked with and that counseling is optional for her.  She also said D has healthy boundaries regarding her father and good reason for her decision not to see him for now.

So here are the questions: How do I get H off my back about counseling and not have to answer his questions?  He already knows that D does not want this discussed with him and in turn OW.

What do I do when he starts to push seeing D when she has NO desire and gets physically sick and distraught at the thought of it?  Yes, H knows this.

FWIW I think the answer is clear, your D is of an age when she has the right to her own views and wishes on this matter.
He can be told that in straightforward language. You do not have to answer his questions because you are respecting his D's wishes.

From your first posts I commented on how mature and grounded your D seemed and the counsellor clearly feels confident enough in her level of maturity to feel that her decisions and wishes in this matter are sound.

What strikes me as so mature about her is her stating she will not have a r with him whilst OW is around, not that she doesn't want one with him at all. And perhaps later down the line there will be room within that for compromise between your h and your D.

I think she will be aware what kind of action her F could take, and I've no doubt she will quickly make herself familiar with her rights in this matter too. She sounds mature enough to be involved in this process.

 If i remember right your D is 14? In which case it will be extremely difficult for your h to force her to do anything, particularly as her counsellor has such a strong view of her maturity.

Your h has a fantasy in his mind, and no doubt he will claim it is you who is manipulating the situation. If he does there is very little point in engaging him in any discussion about that. He will have to learn to respect her wishes just as you are doing.

Has she written a letter to her F? Perhaps if she writes a polite letter stating her wishes and wants at this point and her wishes regarding gifts may be in order. Perhaps her counsellor can help her to write it?

It could then be copied and kept if needed as testimony on her part if he pushes the Court aspect. And a conversation with a L may help put her and your mind at rest. Just a thought.

All you can do is be there to listen and guide her, not influence or persuade. She needs space to heal and think things through, you both do.
Much love to you. xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[stayed]

Voyager has said, EXACTLY what I would have said Phoenix.  Your daughter is by LAW able to decide for herself.  There is not a court in the country that will force her to do anything regarding her father she does not wish to do.

She sounds very mature indeed and I think Voyager has made a good suggestion.   A polite, precise letter stating her wishes to her father, with her boundaries and conditions enclosed.  Good idea about having her counselor look it over, perhaps even helping her to word it.  As sad as it may seem, I very much believe everything should be cleared by your lawyer.... just to be on the safe side.  MLCer's are quite cagey and manipulative, so you must protect yourselves.

There is no need for you to be the "go between"... simply say, our daughter is old enough to make these decisions herself.  You have her letter,  I hope you will respect her wishes.  Then simply leave him to it. 

Hard to fight and argue with somebody who will not fight and argue back.

Hugs... you are lucky to have Voyager, she gives very wise counsel... Stayed...