[31andcounting]

Thanks Moment
31

[stayed]

As for the LBS contributing to the length of the crisis?  I don't know.  I do believe staying in the drama feeds the energy...and feeds the Monster.

I love this and I totally agree with it!  No explanation required.

I also think our HEALING, our obvious growth, does effect them.  Event he vanisher.  I am always amazed at how much Limitless's h knows about what is going on in her home, with the kids and all kinds of things.  Especially, when he has very little contact with the children and ZILTCH with Limitless. I'm not sure who their "eyes and ears" are, but they are everywhere.  Ready2 also mentioned the prank calls, the covert contacts through 3rd. parties, whatever... for the most part your MLCer's are keeping TABS on you.  Trusting, perhaps your h doesn't pursue you when you withdraw, nor your's Xyz, I was pretty sure that your h had begun to make contact through emails after he saw you at your D's graduation.  You were very calm, gracious, controlled and distant, after that you began to get emails.  Maybe that's not pursuing, but you DID NOT PURSUE him at all during your d's graduation, and right afterwards, he began to send emails.  Silly stuff, your favourite football team wins and losses. 

The point is, that even though you think your MLCer's are not aware of you... it seems they somehow are keeping a VERY CLOSE eye on what you are doing.  I think as the LBS gets stronger and healthier, I think the MLCer rev's up their behaviour and get's worse and worse.  I think we have always pampered our partners when they were not well, or appeared a little more vulnerable then usual and when we withdraw I think they revert to what they have always done... become sick and pathetic.

So I do think our behaviour effects their crisis.  Good or bad, I don't know. Speeds it up, slows it down... I don't know that either, but I do know, the healthier we are the LESS CONCERNED we are about them and that to me is a good thing.  A very good thing.

As for the term "moving on", I don't see that as finding a new partner. A new partner is an OPTION!  It's not the only OPTION... it is just one.  People can see that you are lonely.  Is it awful of them to not want you to be alone?  You make it sound like it is the greatest insult in the world.  They love you, care about you, they know people are not SOLITARY creatures, we love human contact. 

Anybody who suggests you find another partner is a compliment.  They are saying, anybody would be fortunate to have you.  Instead you act like they have called you a "wh*re", or a man/woman hungry fiend.  People love being around other people.  It is the way we were made. It is the way that we rose to be the top of the food chain.  It was only through numbers that we beat out the cyber tooth tiger, mammoths, what have you.  Alone, we wouldn't have stood a chance. 

There is no need to be OFFENDED and INSULTED because your friends and family hate to see you alone.  Yes, I imagine they would LOVE to see you with a new partner.  Probably for a multitude of reasons, one of them because they think your spouses DO NOT DESERVE you... and they would love for him or her to return and for you to be LONG GONE.  Yes, they would love a little revenge for what they saw you go through.  They love you.  Shame on them.

The other comment from Ready2 that really resonated with me was this one...

But as a mentor here I wouldn't counsel someone to embrace the struggles someone else is putting them through because it will ultimately make them a better martyr.  Their spiritual journey (or lack thereof) is their own business, and, as was the point of my original post, I do not believe that we must suffer for the redemption of someone else, not even our spouses, our children, our parents

Every word of this statement hit me right between the eyes, nobody should suffer like we did, like our children did for the REDEMPTION of another.  Sorry, I just will never buy that.  An MLCer's crisis is AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER... others. 

Seriously people, we have got to stop FOCUSING on the poor, lost MLCer.  The focus belongs on ourselves.  When will somebody write a moving story about an LBS and how he/she came through this ordeal,  and we all SWOON with admiration.  Applauding the courage and fortitude of this MARVELOUS persons recovery. 

That's what I would like to see.  Just once!

Ok, I just read part II.  It came in as I was writing the above response.  I'm not sure your depiction of this gentleman is quite accurate, moment.  You said he has remarried and has calmed down, living a quiet, contented life.  He is living and he may be quiet but I think he is living his life in complete REGRET. 

I will have to read Part II again.  Thank you for posting it.

hugs Stayed

 

[holdinon2hope]

Thank you so much Moment...that really does sound a lot like My H with some of the tji.gs he has said. It is a great insight and much appreciated. Thank you again

[SwiftCovenant]

Wow...attaching to this.  Going to the entire thread later.

[Thunder]

Thanks moment,

I love how he talked about the changes they both were making but not together.  That is very sad.
If they only could have made them together.

But I guess that's not how it usually works.
I have made so many positive changes since all this happened and I too have thanked my X.  Not for the hurt and pain but for the wake-up call.  I was not taking care of myself.  I had gained weight, hated myself for it, but did nothing to change it.

It made me depressed about myself and I had very little self confidence. 

Today I am active, slimmed down and very confident.  I told X if he had not thrown me under the bus I would probably still be stuck where I was.
He doesn't find it very funny.  He loves the way I look now.   

The best thing that has come out of this is we do things together now.  Active things.  He's in great shape, too.
We have more fun together than we have had in years.

So even if we never remarry we have become friends again.  I'm ok with being single.

Guess there can be an upside to this after all.  I never want to get back to where I was a few years ago and I know I won't.

[osb]

Absolutely fascinating discussion, making me think intensely and i thank you all for it (especially moment).

One little thing struck me in reading Part II:

"...The contrast in how we both chose to deal with our pain amazes me, she chose a more conscious way to heal while I followed the more unconscious path – and there is a part of me that envies that she has less to be shameful of today. Although........ she often tells me this is my perception because she did go to the depths of despair too, she did experience her shadows and her shame, she felt her failure at losing me and our marriage.  None-the-less I can see she chose a more constructive path – I do not begrudge her this – it has made me more aware of her value as a mother to my children and it has filled me with pride that she was my wife and best friend because in her I also see that part of myself...."

OK, J doesn't begrudge his XW her pain, and is envious of her path... hmmm. I will have to ponder this, but to me it doesn't sound like his acquisition of greater mindfulness has completely cleared his mind of his own ego. Her pain remains distant and small, compared to the magnitude of his remembered pain. Her recovery therefore seems smoother, and her realized self larger to him. That's face-saving on his part, I think. Inevitable, perhaps; soothing and anaesthetizing, certainly; but still not fully self-aware. Maybe they never become so?

[stayed]

Good observation osb.  I too found something that was not sitting well with the second part, but I could not put my finger on it. He envies her, "that she has less to be ashamed of"!!!  wth?  Less, she has nothing to be ashamed of, she stood by him.  She encouraged him to mountain climb, take time for himself.  How did he thank her for her support and understanding... he CHEATED on her!  Yet, his main point is, "he envies her, BECAUSE she has less to be ashamed of".  Then he goes on to talk about what his wife said about hitting the depth of despair.  Does he think, she is ASHAMED of hitting the floor?

I don't think he understands what his wife was trying to tell him at all. I think his wife was telling him that she too hit "rock bottom".  She too, hit depths she never dreamed she was capable of feeling.  He instead chooses to believe she is talking about being ashamed of her own behaviour or something.

Interesting...

Hugs Stayed

[a]

Hi All

I think I need to just remind you that J wrote part 1 and 2 about 3 years ago.  He was just on 2 years in recovery from that day he crashed when he wrote me these emails. (I recently came across these emails when i was clearing my mailbox). 

He was at the time of writing these emails processing his actions and grieving the loss of his marriage.  He was in counselling trying to figure out why he did what he did and why he acted with “no conscience” – his words not mine.  So I guess what you are reading is the perspective of a MLCer who was still in recovery and still trying to figure it out.

Today J is a different man, he is not married his XW is married.  He is in a relationship with someone he met about a year ago.

Please try not to judge him for who he used to be - remember he was willing to allow me to share this with you because he understands pain and sorrow and even the anger - but more especially the pain of the LBS and the LBC (left behind children)

Take care
moment

[a]

One other thing - he did not begrudge his wife the more conscious path NOT her pain - what he means is that he wishes he had done it differently he wishes he could have been as gracious as his wife had been because he was clearly struggling with his shame and guilt - can you imagine learning to live with yourself once you realize all the damage you have caused, knowing that for the rest of your life you have to carry the burden of knowing that you intentionally set out to hurt the people you love.  That is what J was trying to convey.  I know this from the conversations we have had over the years.

I remember a another friend of mine who through negligence killed 5 people in a road accident - for two weeks he was absolutely catatonic unable to do anything but stare at the wall in his bedroom - as his mind tried to process the the enormity of his reckless actions - he took a very long time to forgive himself and i am not so sure he has - he has had a very difficult life living mostly with the notion he is undeserving of a good life. 

So just for a moment try rise above your anger and imagine what it would be like to realize that you were responsible for causing so much pain and sorrow - how would you deal with it.  How would you try to recover some sense of self respect, and   compassion for yourself when all you feel is that you are a horrible and creul human being.

take care
moment

[toughtimes]

Absolutely fascinating discussion, making me think intensely and i thank you all for it (especially moment).

One little thing struck me in reading Part II:

"...The contrast in how we both chose to deal with our pain amazes me, she chose a more conscious way to heal while I followed the more unconscious path – and there is a part of me that envies that she has less to be shameful of today. Although........ she often tells me this is my perception because she did go to the depths of despair too, she did experience her shadows and her shame, she felt her failure at losing me and our marriage.  None-the-less I can see she chose a more constructive path – I do not begrudge her this – it has made me more aware of her value as a mother to my children and it has filled me with pride that she was my wife and best friend because in her I also see that part of myself...."

OK, J doesn't begrudge his XW her pain, and is envious of her path... hmmm. I will have to ponder this, but to me it doesn't sound like his acquisition of greater mindfulness has completely cleared his mind of his own ego. Her pain remains distant and small, compared to the magnitude of his remembered pain. Her recovery therefore seems smoother, and her realized self larger to him. That's face-saving on his part, I think. Inevitable, perhaps; soothing and anaesthetizing, certainly; but still not fully self-aware. Maybe they never become so?

Totally picked up on this too Osb. There is a sense that this is all about him although there are remorseful comments elsewhere and he holds himself as a total fool and terrible cliche. It's confusing but I think on the whole he realises what he has done. Moment, in your last posts you write what I was thinking, that this was a man writing in the middle of his journey and, although not completely remorseful etc. he is well on his way.

My MiL had a MLC and she abandoned her teenage sons. She has spoken to me about it and feels deep guilt, but her guilt is all about her, about how she missed out on their teen years, about how she finally lost her ex husband because he had moved on. It is still all about her, so she is also suffering from a lifelong dose of selfishness!

I have been reading and listening to lots of jungian ideas today on youtube and was feeling that my ex H has simply found his authentic self. However, your friend's description of his replay behaviour, how he manipulated everybody so that he could justify his behaviour, how he believed he had every right to live the life he wanted (this is what jungian psychology promotes, the individual self) and who cares about anyone else.
I was interested to hear him say that the ow was attracted to this new persona, this new guy, the guy with money and a never ending string of fun activities and holidays to take her on. Take those goodies away and she wouldn't have hung around. Many people I know have said that to me about my ex H and his younger, intern girlfriend (although she has been promoted to a managerial position since BD!!!!!).

I will read again and have more of a think but thank you so much.