[xyzcf]

I too still have difficulty reading which is something I always enjoyed previously.

I recently started taking some Chinese herbal remedies that my acupuncturist gave me as I was finding myself "hypervigilent" in that everything seemed to be a threat, I am still tired all the time even though I sleep 8-9 hours at night. These herbs actually have helped to allow me to feel more my normal self. She stressed that they helped with 3 things, to decrease the level of cortisol that my adrenals were producing and smooth out hormones...the third thing totally escapes me  They calm me, but I still struggle with the daily sadness and I wonder when this situational depression of mine will ever cease?

The challenge is that MLCers depression is very deep and very despairing and this is what is so soul destroying for the LBSer

What your daughter described feels to me exactly what has been happening to my husband for 5 years++++ I know all the theory and even have a clinical background that should allow me to get this.

When I am with him, I still feel connected to him and lately I had wanted to stop all contact because it hurts me when he disappears again...so in a way, if I thought it would be better for me not to see him, how much more so must he feel because I know that when he is with me, he has to face what he has done, thus he stays away, but only for so long before his need to check in overtakes his need to run.

I think sometimes if he would only let me in, if he would only talk to me to break through this despair, but he never has...he cannot say anything at all. Which frightens me because his depression is so deep and his running so extreme that I often lose hope that anything can every change.

[Pixiegirl]

I take some herbal anti-stress stuff. And I take 5HTP at night to help me sleep and for depression. Both are all natural products and have helped me tremendously.

I often wonder if this grief and depression will ever end. With all the death and sickness over the last 7 years I cannot seem to get past one loss to get to the next. It is certainly hard work.

As for H, I can see in many ways why he runs. Its much easier to run than to face reality. I suppose we all do when the time is right and our minds can handle it. Or maybe we just get sick and tired of being sick and tired so we make a move. MLCer's run and LBS's stand and do the hard work.

[Ready2Transform]

I recently started taking some Chinese herbal remedies that my acupuncturist gave me as I was finding myself "hypervigilent" in that everything seemed to be a threat, I am still tired all the time even though I sleep 8-9 hours at night. These herbs actually have helped to allow me to feel more my normal self. She stressed that they helped with 3 things, to decrease the level of cortisol that my adrenals were producing and smooth out hormones...the third thing totally escapes me  They calm me, but I still struggle with the daily sadness and I wonder when this situational depression of mine will ever cease?

These are exactly the benefits I take my regimen of supplements for (along with upping serotonin which balances my mood).  I would greatly encourage all LBS who feel the need to seek help for the raw emotions and panic spiral this puts us in to seek this before pharmaceuticals - there are less risks of negative side effects, and the natural remedies don't 'mask' our feelings, they help retrain our bodies to do these things naturally so over time we will need them less (or not at all).  It makes such a huge difference, and a solid commitment to our health is a wonderful gift we can give ourselves within this.

Thank you so much, S&D, for sharing your daughter's insights.  It is so beautiful that she has overcome and is so reflective now, and I too see these things in my H.  I truly hope someday he is able to turn to face the demons he feels are chasing him. 

[nah]

When you are depressed you run. You never want to be where you are. You want to be somewhere else and when you get there you want to be somewhere else again.

This is so interesting to me, and if true would explain so much of my H's behavior.  He was desperate to run away from our house.  Never looked back after BD, wouldn't even drive by.  My son had to meet him up the street to borrow money.  He stayed with his parents (who he couldn't stand for the last 30 years) just to get away.  BTW-running from what?  He had all the freedom in the world at home, I never questioned him, even when he didn't come home and said it was for work I believed him. 

Then he was desperate to get out of his parent's house and rent a house (with the girl).  It was only 3 months post BD.  THEN, he was obsessively desperate to buy a house "with lots of land and THEN I will be happy".  He has been there for less then 2 months.  Now he is financially strapped and is stuck there, if he stayed home he/we would of had more options.  Not sure what is going to happen next.

[Songanddance]

I think sometimes if he would only let me in, if he would only talk to me to break through this despair, but he never has...he cannot say anything at all

Unfortunately no-one can help a depressed person until they want to help themselves. That much I did learn from my D. She would refuse all attempts at communication and clarity. She rejected all the help I was ready to pay and told me that I was the one needing help. That hurt but I then left her alone. The wise words of my then headteacher was " Leave her alone and keep the door open" She was right.

And I take 5HTP at night to help me sleep and for depression. Both are all natural products and have helped me tremendously

Me too - absolutely swear by it. HTP balances out the serotonin in your body - really balances me well.

It is so beautiful that she has overcome and is so reflective now,

Thank you R2T - unfortunately as she has clinical depression it has a mighty strong hold and she cycles wildly with it.
She has been on medication again on and off for the last 7 years and struggles on a daily basis when the blackness comes. She told me her insight not long after BD and I had found this site and info on MLC. 
Currently she is having a very down "black" period again and as she had been involved in two female abusive relationships from age 18 -22 she is also bearing the scars of those - co dependency, fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy etc...
She has a BF now and he is level headed (having spent 4 years on his own finding himself,); he is reliable and adores my D and is very well informed on depression. I can trust him to guide her sensibly I think.
However, my heart breaks all over again when she breaks down as she did last weekend and curls up in a little ball sobbing because she is afraid that she might lose him because of her depression.   Her fear is very real but this time she has stated that she is ready for professional guidance and that she has to do this for herself. 
That is when I think very little about H - I have my children to look after- he should be there too but he isn't. 

[Wounded Bird]

attaching

[calamity]

I am very concerned when I see people recommending natural remedies for anything [R2T I love you but... ].  I'm no scientist but I do understand that many so-called pharmaceuticals contain natural ingredients.  Natural does not mean safe.  Pharmaceuticals have all sorts of side effects BUT they are tested!

For example:  the latest thing amongst younger parents is home-made sunscreen.  One claimed that coconut oil has a natural sunscreen of 10.  Not true, it has a spf of between 2 & 4 & this is due to the reflective nature of the oil [and any oil].  The usual mix for natural sunscreen is oils & zinc ointment.  Zinc is white & it does block sun but, why not just put a shirt & pants on a kid? 

I know we all have our ways to deal [& mine is: working the body quiets the mind! ] but it is dangerous to self-medicate.  Get help from a trusted doctor who knows you.  I think lbs's commonly have a combination of anxiety & depression by the way & those should be treated differently.

Okay back to the mlcer [bad idea btw]:  I can't decide if they first lost their sense of empathy or their sense of humour!

[osb]

I am very concerned when I see people recommending natural remedies for anything [R2T I love you but... ].  I'm no scientist but I do understand that many so-called pharmaceuticals contain natural ingredients.  Natural does not mean safe. 

Too true; and so many pharmaceuticals are simply natural remedies repackaged. You can drink willowbark tea, or swallow an aspirin; active ingredient is absolutely identical, just in the latter version you know how much you took. No need to feel badly if we use a pharmaceutical to cope, rather than a herbal.

I would hate to generalise about MLCers; depression hits them all differently. Nevertheless I think that some know they have hurt others and feel tremendous guilt which makes them run even more and some choose not to know or feel such low self worth that they behave in such a narcisstic and extreme way as an attempt to show high self worth in the hope of fooling everyone.

...We are plunged into this dark world too. For most of us it is reactive depression and that can last from a few weeks to a year. It's part of the grieving process. For some of us, whilst it is a form of depression that does not plunge us into the same abyss as the MLCers,  it is real and our instincts are to keep running too, to keep wishing for, to keep thinking negative self defeating thoughts.

These are great points, really clarifies some thinking for me. My H was so clearly depressed (angry, impulsive, obsessive compulsive behaviours), and self-medicated by extreme exercise (all those lovely endorphins!). The week before BD, his body pretty much gave out and he failed to achieve his 'high'. Came home looking like hell, not sleeping, saying "I feel like there's been a death"; but rebelled strongly against the very idea that he might be suffering from depression. Then.... BD. Bang. I still wonder if he would've gone there, if he'd agreed to manage his depression more conventionally (with meds instead of the 'natural high' of mountain climbing).

On the other hand, for the reactive depression I acknowledge I had, running and natural endorphins worked wonders. Kept my fingers away from my wrists for just long enough for me to see the light again.

[Anjae]

I know Songanddance, but I was asking Fi. He is no longer that depressed, but like many former MLCer seems to still find it strange that their spouse would be hurt with their actions. When one is out of the fog one should be able to get it.

Or better, I know depressed people with energy run. Most depressed people I know (MLC aside) do not even have the energy to get out of bed, let alone run. They juts want to be home, under the duvet and not to see or to talk to a soul.

Your D has been depressed for nearly 10 years. There was nothing/no one that could have helped come out of her depression?

LBs usually have situational depression. It is a most lighter type of depression, it comes because of the situation. It tends to fade as time goes by. It differ from reactive depression that is a subtype of clinical depression. http://www.elementsbehavioralhealth.com/depression/situational-depression/ , http://www.psyweb.com/articles/depression/definition-of-reactive-depression

Situational depression is mild, reactive is a type of major depression.
I was diagnosed with Situational depression early on (it has gone long ago) and so was Calamity. Maybe others also were but I do not recall who.

High energy MLCer are more bipolar than just major depression. Bipolar is a type of depression, but it has both poles, manic and depressed. Depression only has depressed pole. If someone has both, the mania(run and high energy) and the lows, than it is most likely bipolar or Cyclothymia.

Cyclothymia is mild,  http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorder/guide/cyclothymia-cyclothymic-disorder There is also bipolar I and bipolar II. The first has mania, the second hypomania (much more severe) http://bipolar.about.com/cs/faqs/f/faq_bp12dif.htm

LL, never seem Life as a House. Will check it out.

Early on I had no troubles reading. In the middle I did. Now It has been some 2 or 3 years I managed to read fine again. And even to study complex subjects.

I tried the natural things first (and probably for too long). They did not help at all and I think they only prolonged, and made the anxiety worse. I should I started the meds much earlier but I did not wanted to. I had natural pills and teas. It took me almost two years since BD to take a med. At that point it was a simple decision: sleep or not to sleep. Since none of the natural things was working, anti-anxiety had to be.



(Typo corrected - Bipolar II)

[Songanddance]

Your D has been depressed for nearly 10 years. There was nothing/no one that could have helped come out of her depression?

Yes there were ways out but she rejected them all (teenage rebellion as well) and had to be almost forced to take ADs. Refused therapy and has only just started in the last two months.

Clinical depression can be life long and there are phases or cycles that are almost akin to bipolar but the highs and the crashes are no where near as intense - Please note, I only have my Ds experience to go on.  She has had a couple of years cycling where she is "free " and then the blackness closes in again.
She once explained her experience of it closing in on her ..... imagine a white piece of paper - pure white no blemish, no mark and then suddenly, a tiny black dot in the centre appears. Slowly the dot gets bigger ( a bit like when you burn a hole in paper it ripples outwards) It gets bigger and darker until the whole paper is black and you can no longer see white. As the blackness gets bigger, she said "It's like a dark suffocating fog" and it becomes so black and intense that you can hardly breathe.

She started up with BF early this year and had a "free" time for about 6 or so months but said last week that she can feel it creeping up again. So is now doing what she can to control its hold on her. She is on ADs and the doctors have also put her on beta blockers to stop the panic attacks.  I really don't want this and neither does she but it will at least give her breathing  space while she finds a therapist she can trust.