[Anjae]

Since you cannot be of heap, Ready2, I asked that know it all thing called Google.  It said “J is the numerical equivalent of 10/1 and represents our aspirations. This letter is truthful, benevolent and intelligent. When it is the first consonant in a name the bearer will possess an unyielding desire not to give up and will therefore find success - eventually. Negatively, J can be lazy and lack direction.” Lack direction? Right. 

Not sure if I know from what Mr J is running from. The mess he made? Certainly. But there is something more. And that something more I don't think I know what it is.

As for the LBS doing or not doing the work and it may prolong the MLCer crisis. Some LBS have done the work and the MLCer had/still is having a very long crisis. Some LBS did not do the work and the MLCer had /is having a very long crisis. Some LBS did the work and the MLCer had a shorter crisis. Some LBS did not do the work and the MLCer had a shorter crisis. It is pretty much up to the MLCer and its demons.

The leght is, in many case, much longer that we could have thought. Replay can last 10 years and we know Replay is just one part of MLC. Regarding contact with the MLCer so that they can see progress. That is, in my view, a personal choice of the LBS. I do not want contact with Mr J . He is too nits and I have no need of him to see/know if I have, or have not changed. In fact, and since I have, I think I less and less want to have anything to do with him. I've changed a lot, he remains in the same place he was all those years ago.

All I know is that, a point come when there is no more pain for the LBS. At least in my personal experience that is what happened.

Unlike you xyzcf, I like to have has much as possible free, doing nothing time. It was not like that early on (maybe for some 3.5-4 years), but I start to slow down and to allow lots of free, quiet time, including plenty on my own.

[paradigmshift]

Jae's crisis was lengthened by his ex-wife.  She never did the work on herself.  She is still the same woman that he abandoned.  She never got a job, never got a life, never healed.  She just found a string of men to take care of her and the kids since she did not want to get a job.  She refused to return to school to get a diploma or job training when I offered to pay for it.  She sits at home, day after day, lonely, depressed, and angry.  Plain and simple.  Another fact is that if she had done those things, I know for certain that they would be back together again.  He keeps trying though.  He tells her he does not want to go back to the old marriage, the old relationship.  Her response is always, "That is what I want.  There is nothing wrong with the old marriage."

Been thinking.

My ex upon BD let known 2 things he was unhappy about with me. One being, I refuse to go to work. *Note: He was the one who agreed to let me stop work once he started doing well in his business.

Suddenly the business took a dip and it became my fault because I wasn't working. Not because he was incompetent, not because he generated great dissatisfaction by shouting at his clients and his staff due to stress. Oh no, it was because I wasn't working. Convenient.

So now he expects me to change, to lead the kind of life he wants me to lead, just so he can 'get over his crisis'? I don't think so. For my ex, the real problem doesn't lie in how much I was making or not making, but how much the company wasn't making under his stewardship. In fact I gave him a huge 5-figure sum to help with the cash flow and in a couple of months it was gone. Then came the BD. Truth is, and he knows it deep down, his ego took a big blow. Probably realised he didn't have what it takes to be as successful as he wanted to be. Instead of having to face it squarely and take steps to overcome his shortcomings and persevere/change strategy etc, he puts the blame on someone else. Denial.

In Jae's case, it seems many other men were able to pick up where he failed and he knows it. GAL is for me, not for him. If I can be independent of him, it will open more doors for me. As I see it, GAL doesn't open the door for him, in fact, it closes it. The door is kept open only because of whatever love we have left for the abandoner.

[Songanddance]

Just to add my ha'porth worth.

I found J's writing c/o moment interesting as also Jae's response to it.

I agree that there does seem to be a degree of romanticism in J's writing and whilst I don't dispute anything that J says nor do I intend to dishonour his feelings/responses/attitude about it - I perceive a sense of self pity in it.

His use of the word pleasure is also interesting and more appropriate to my H who, compared to an awful lot of you on here, seems to be having a milder MLC although he is still firmly in replay. Like LP's Jae - he does attempt to keep busy so there is a degree of mania in him.

J also talks about his actions during replay but not much about the words he used to his wife. I know MLCer's memories are shot but do they really not remember the lying they do, the secretive planning and furtive behaviour, the coldness and silence, the angry, vicious words they use, the anger they show, the potential, as in some LBS's cases, for violence?
Is there an ex MLCer who can remember that and help us understand? 

Both of these MLCers also left the marital home.  It would be good to have an ex MLCer that stayed at home whether a wallower or high energy and quiz his or her experience. 

Thank you moment for posting these e-mails and keeping us updated - most interesting
I'm with Stayed in that perhaps LBSs ought write more about how to respond, heal and recover from an MLC whether reconciled or not; our own stories might help us all a little more rather than staying focussed on the MLCer and his/her journey.

[LisaLives]

I think this is an interesting discussion, on all fronts.  Every person and every experience is different.  But, J and Jae (incidentally my ex is also a J and so was his MLCer father) are also very different, though similar in ways that my ex is not.  Perhaps you could put them on a spectrum of their aversive behaviors.  J was a more fervent MLCer than my ex is, and Jae even more so.  Not all MLCers become partiers, some become workaholics, or marathon runners.  Mine met and married his OW and threw himself into becoming the bionic family man. 

So, your drug of choice also causes different outcomes, I think, and drugs tell you what you need or lack in your personal inventory.  We all have drugs of choice.  Many of those who fight for legal pot claim it's no worse than alcohol, just different chemistry, so they don't know why everyone gets so bent out of shape.  But I hate pot, it makes me slow and stupid, while alcohol makes me relaxed.  I have done all kinds of other drugs, and my ADHD chemistry definitely draws me to some more than others.  I am a low self-esteem intellectual.  I am drawn to work where I excel and could easily be a workaholic, and while I NEED exercise, my endorphin high is not so high that I could ever become an ultra-athlete.  For whatever reason, J and Jae sought substances and lots of women, so IF they were basically good people at their core, lacking the gene for serious addiction, the chances that one day things would all catch up with them is pretty inevitable.  The ones who turn to "normal" MLC pursuits are not the same, I would argue. 

On the scale of WOW to HMMM, Jae seems like a WOW, J was a wow, and my ex is a HMMM.  There are still many people who probably believe that he left because I was a crappy wife and now he found the perfect family.  I have never tried to discredit him or bring shame to his current situation.  By all appearances, he is perfect.  He does not drink or do drugs, he is VERY respected professionally, but I still see the weirdness, and so do his kids.  But even I may never know what actually happened to him.  I expect he will live out his life with his new family for quite a while, 10-15 years maybe, until she leaves him for her new and improved man, at which point I envision he will engage in a short disastrous dalliance, and then wake up and want to come back to me.  I do think they all want to return at some point.   

But, at that point, what are you getting and what was the opportunity cost?  Because while he is spinning in the wind, happy or not, whatever pleasures or pain he may have, I found a man who LOVES me...  No, it's not the same, no we don't have the history and he is not the father of my children.  BUT, my boys can SEE, even in their pain and discomfort, that he loves me.  That gift is priceless.  For my teenagers to see another man value and respect me, want to take care of me, despite the fact that I don't need it, is priceless.  If I were to remain single, or casually waltz through a series of dalliances, they might be able to believe that he was right and I am not worthy of a good man.  But, when I see them tweet about how angry it makes them to see NG (my new guy is also a J...) treat me well, I know I win. 

And regarding the point about whether LBS can impact the crisis and Jae seeing his wife be the same person he left...  I also have a problem with that.  Is he seeking continued pretzeling?  Because yes, I can look back on all the reasons exH left me and what he thought he wanted--was I supposed to pursue them?  I didn't, the pretzeling ended on BD.  And I sought to become MY person, the person I left the first time I rolled over to his needs and demands.  How is Jae's wife supposed to know what would make her attractive, and what if she does something he could not accept?  I gave up a career for my ex, so we would never have to compete.  Now I work for his old boss, and I took up several hobbies he detested and made friends he would hate...  As a stander, I would not have been able to do those things, but I am happier now than I ever have been in my life, truly.  I never wanted to give up work, or my friends, but we made his more important, because you really do only have so much time and energy, and I was glad to do it, for my family.  I was never unhappy in my M, and I never really felt abused or taken advantage of.  BUT, in hindsight, with the perspective of a man who appreciates me, I get it... 

Not sure I had a point here, just a totally different perspective, from a non-stander...  Love and light, ll
   

[summer90]

All I can say is thank goodness my H's name doesn't begin with J.

The journey is long enough!!

My H is a stay at home monster/cheater/financial abuser and all around good guy

My intention is, when he gets out of his tunnel full of quicksand, that he posts here and has a "tell all" story for the live-in MLCer.

He thinks I am a dragon, I wish I was - I would get into that tunnel and breathe fire onto his sorry backside until he runs out the other end .

Stay fabulous fellow LBS's.   These J posts are a wonderful insight into a truly horrible MLC world.

[toughtimes]

I think Jae's post cleared up a few of the niggles I had about Js emails. I am grateful to both men for sharing their feelings.

My MLCer is no where near as way out there as J or Jae and does not do drugs etc. to run from whatever he is running from. LisaLives explains it well, when we see such overt acting out it is almost more reassuring than the rather boring workaholic, ow-a-holic, on the surface one might think this MLCer is doing fine and getting what he wants out of life.

J talks about the pleasure he felt, that he had some great  times during his crisis. This is what I see with my MLCer and yet I also see a man who is constantly moving, says one thing but does another and seems to be running from his true, authentic self and this is why I am so confused. I would rather hear Jae's explanation if I am honest, so maybe i do project my pain onto the MLCer?

[trusting]

My H is a stay at home monster/cheater/financial abuser and all around good guy

My intention is, when he gets out of his tunnel full of quicksand, that he posts here and has a "tell all" story for the live-in MLCer.

He thinks I am a dragon, I wish I was - I would get into that tunnel and breathe fire onto his sorry backside until he runs out the other end .

Summer, I also have a live in MLCer.  Fortunately, I don't get a lot of mean monster (though to me, the coldness is monster enough).  I do like your dragon approach to light him out of the tunnel.  I have considered the heavy cast iron skillet method for speeding up the crisis.

[osb]

The perspectives of all the J's are fascinating. I agree they seem to have written at different stages of their own understanding or evolution. Learned a lot from reading.

The question about how much work the LBS needs to do is a tricky one, isn't it? On the one hand I resent like hell being told "you've changed so much" (hey, not for your benefit buddy  ) but on the other I can see why me lurching off my metaphorical backside tacitly encouraged my H to do his own work. I think we LBS's can also become shocked and depressed by the lead-up to our partner's MLC (I know I was, stunned into physical and mental immobility like a turtle entering a shell and thinking it'll make the nasty world go away). If I was still in that craven dark place (and probably would've been except for the advice on this forum!), I would've looked to my H like emotional quicksand. Never mind the impact on me (I might've gone through with that suicidal ideation; or found anger as a bulwark against the world, and bcome a person I really didn't like to be). So, much as I resent it, guess I grew because I needed to.

I'm still too early in reconnection to have heard a lot of tunnel stories (,,,er, not sure I wish to, TBH). My H vacillated between live-at-home monster and high-energy runaway. But I've heard him distance himself from his old thinking processes by saying "I'm not that guy anymore... I was a really angry guy and I shouldn't ever have said those things... I was never searching for myself; I always knew exactly who and what I was, I just hated it". It'll surely take a long time for H to process what he did, even after he's recommitted to the marriage. How much longer for those who don't return?

[a]

Hi All

To put some humor into this i called my friend J not because his name begins with J i simply chose the letter at random - now that's the unified field for you

J certainly was not implying that his pleasure was happiness.  J makes a very clear distinction that pleasure is fleeting while happiness is lasting.  He was trying to advise the LBS's on this board to simply not project your pain onto the MLCer.  He was actually trying to empathize with LBS's because for many of us we are not seeking the pleasure that masks and relieves the pain while the MLCer is finding pleasure which does alleviate the pain for a time.  He is also acutely aware of the deep  and traumatic pain he caused his wife and daughters and he knows that they  had no means of escape from the realities of his actions.

NOWHERE did J say that the pleasure was enough to overcome the craziness, the pain and the fear behind his actions, thoughts and behavior during his crisis.  If it did he would not have hit rock bottom, he would not have crashed to the pits of despair.  However the pleasure kept the pain at bay and that why he continued his behavior for as long as he did.

Furthermore, J's wife made many positive changes which he admired - maybe J unlike Jae - has truly overcome his anger towards his XW hence the more romantic (i would say loving) approach to his XW.

At the end of the day one MLCer cannot speak on behalf of another MLCer's experience calling it BS just because the language being used is gentler - it certainly did not make the experience any less manic or traumatic.  J has truly become a very gentle soul - well that's what i see anyway.  Also note that its been 5+ years since the day J crashed.  From beginning of replay to today its been 11+ years.

It is clear hat J and Jae have different perspective for similar coping mechanisms used during crisis.  It does not make one perspective more accurate or more real than another.

A wise friend always reminds me that a story has as many perspective as there are people involved in the story and then there is the truth.


take care
moment 

[limitless]

This is all interesting and informative to read. I really appreciate all the different perspectives.

While the majority of the stories begin the same, with BD, the mlcers have many different roads that they take.

Some high energy mlcers choose high energy activities and OWs to find their pleasure. I think these high energy, very reckless ones have the propensity to crash quicker ("quicker" being a relative term). With the really high energy, I believe one will see multiple OWs, alcohol, drug use, or manic spending. Maybe all!!!   These very reckless behaviors can bring rock bottom sooner than lower energy mlcers.

That is not to say that this means higher energy types end their crisis sooner. A crash to end high energy replay does not end the crisis. It just may shorten the replay stage, as the Mlcer has no more funds or "friends" enable the replay activity.

Some mlcers may return home at this point. Suddenly the "controlling" lbs is a preferred situation. After all, the lbs had "gotten over" the initial shock and has picked herself back up. She's there to rescue him!  And boy does he need rescuing!  His life is in a shambles!

But, what has he learned?  He spent all that time replaying and avoiding until he crashed. Now he's returning home to be saved by the lbs. Sometimes these mlcers run again as soon as they start feeling better. Just like a sobered up alcoholic may celebrate the good fortune of finding a new job by having a beer.   This time he will be smarter. This time he will not overdo it. And the next thing he's being arrested for a DUI.

While a lower energy my never (physically) leave the home. Or the Mlcer will attempt to start all over with a new partner or wife, maybe even having more kids to attempt to get it right this time.

We are reminded that the stages are not linear or even chronological. I remember reading in one of the articles that the Mlcer may enter liminality multiple times, and then rush back into replay as he isn't ready to face his shadow.

I think that my Mlcer had times if liminality between OWs (this one is number 3 and has outlasted the other two considerably). But, he went back into replay to continue to avoid. Sometimes we call these moments of clarity.

The thing is, as lbs, we continue to look for signs that the mlcer is moving through the crisis. There is really no way to know.  There really isn't.



They have many lessons to learn. And during replay they seem to learn nothing.

Not even sure what my point is anymore.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud, trying to understand.

L