[osb]

Fascinating discussion, guys - and some thought-provoking articles.

You're right that many of us frequent this thread because we truly believe there's something organic going wrong / gone wrong in our MLC partner's heads. But like so many things in medicine, this too is likely multi-factorial. Was it exposure to stress hormones during their gestation? Their FOO troubles in childhood? Hormonal changes in mid-life? Possibly yes to all of those things - any combination of which might've tipped an already overwhelmed, depressed person from the 'coping' column toward the maladaptive 'losing it' column.

I do suspect there's an underlying depressive component to MLC. So many of the affective symptoms of depression seem to reproduce themselves in the lead up to MLC (and also in the escape-avoid phase). That doesn't mean depression is the trigger - it could be all the other triggers create the maladaptive situation, and a situational depression is the result of that. The mix is explosive, though.

We really have no idea what areas of the brain are affected during MLC, but the ones that are, are not permanently affected, as they would be in psychopathy (or another personality disorder). Same for most mood disorders, they are not reversible (some types of depression are, by bipolar or schizophrenia aren't).
MLC is different. It is also different from conditions that permanently affect the brain. It is, for example, more similar to post-partum depression, since like post-partum depression, once it is gone, the person is back to normal.

Weight loss and or/endorphins would play a role in brain chemesty. Those two things provoke changes in the brain. Same for adrenaline. However, and unlike what people think, exercise alone does not solve depression, If it did there would be no depressed sports people, and there are. And, of course, MLCers who exercise would stop being depressed. They don't.

Some great points. There was a study I read recently (sorry, will post link if I can find it) comparing brain PET scans (measuring metabolic activity by brain region) from folks with post-partum depression, versus other depressions, while they were asked a series of diagnostic questions. PP depression was quite unique in the brain regions affected. Maybe that has something to do with its peculiar hormonal triggers, maybe reflects the violent speed at which thought processes get scrambled... and maybe holds some clue as to its reversibility. FWIW, it happened to remind me of the list of brain regions kikki mentioned, with respect to MLC thought process changes. Maybe PP depression and MLC have some commonalities?

Endorphins and adrenaline do seem to temporarily alleviate depressive symptoms - many athletes I know use the "runner's high" to pull themselves out of incipient depression. Some of our MLCers have tried the same (think frantic rat on treadmill), though I think in all cases it failed to work, at some point. Well, of course it did; because if exercise had served as a cure for our partners (instead of a temporary fix), guess we wouldn't be here on this board discussing it   

That's just my two bits. I'd love to see a brain PET scan of an MLCer... but then, there's just this little issue of research consent, which they'd all be highly unlikely to provide...

[kikki]

We do not have any idea exactly what MLC affects. We have no scans, no tests of MLCers brains, hormones, blood tests. The article about psycopatjy states: "It is important to recognize that this method provides only indirect evidence of the possible regions implicated in psychopathic symptomatology" most likely because no one knows exactly which regiong are affected nor has direct evidence.

That's right.  Like most links on these threads, it's a possible suggestion for being a possible piece of the puzzle and we all hope that more in known concretely in the future.

Those effects can cause many damages while the person in under suich stress and depressed. But in MLC, once the crisis is gone, the behaviours are also gone and the person goes back to normal. So, the effects are temporary. Which makes sense. Once the crazy MLC behaviour/lifestyle ends, the levels go back to normal.

Or better, once LIminal Depression wears off. Liminality is a hard place and one where things are still imbalanced.

Yes, that definitely is the hope. 
But it won't stop our wondering when other potentials come along our path.

There was a study I read recently (sorry, will post link if I can find it) comparing brain PET scans (measuring metabolic activity by brain region) from folks with post-partum depression, versus other depressions, while they were asked a series of diagnostic questions. PP depression was quite unique in the brain regions affected. Maybe that has something to do with its peculiar hormonal triggers, maybe reflects the violent speed at which thought processes get scrambled... and maybe holds some clue as to its reversibility. FWIW, it happened to remind me of the list of brain regions kikki mentioned, with respect to MLC thought process changes. Maybe PP depression and MLC have some commonalities?

That's very nteresting Osb.  Would absolutely love to scan a MLCer's brain too - or rather, at least a thousand of them.

[Anjae]

Nice to see you write here, osb. 

But like so many things in medicine, this too is likely multi-factorial.

Agree. MLC is most likely a multi-factor thing. 

...any combination of which might've tipped an already overwhelmed, depressed person from the 'coping' column toward the maladaptive 'losing it' column.

This makes a lot of sense to me. If an already depressed person is confronted with another, or several other issues, the person may lose the hability to cope. I think that happened to be at BD. There was a pike of things, I was very stressed, I coped poorly.

Maybe PP depression and MLC have some commonalities?

It could be. When I think of the similarities between post-partum depression and MLC I think of Shantilly Lace/Hope Floats and of what she used to write abour her post-partum depression. It was very similar to what we read from former MLCers. Same with her behaviour and thought patterns while depressed.
 

Some of our MLCers have tried the same (think frantic rat on treadmill), though I think in all cases it failed to work, at some point. Well, of course it did; because if exercise had served as a cure for our partners (instead of a temporary fix), guess we wouldn't be here on this board discussing it   

No, we would not. We would had all been thrilled our MLCers decide to exercise and got rid ot their depression. If only...

Like most links on these threads, it's a possible suggestion for being a possible piece of the puzzle and we all hope that more in known concretely in the future.

Indeed. But it is one of those very big puzzles, with tiny, tiny pieces. One day we may be able to have the complete puzzle.

Would absolutely love to scan a MLCer's brain too - or rather, at least a thousand of them.

So would I.

...but then, there's just this little issue of research consent, which they'd all be highly unlikely to provide...

I think Kikki remembers my tranquilizing dart suggestion ... maybe that woukd allow us to take our MLcers to be scanned. 

[Christina13]

This is fascinating. I believe that something very sudden happened. The change in him so profound that even our children noticed. Along with extended family who didn't even live with him.
 I hsve an extreme MLCer. Almost constant monster. Very bizarre. The exercise cane briefly after. Like a mad man. Four hours at night but for ten days.
Drugs , too.
I think ow is another vice. I've long struggled to understand what exactly happened. My H has a very long list of mental illness in his family. My ic says he seems to have traits of multiple personality disorders. But he never had signs of this before. We've been friends since we were ten. I've struggled with the idea a personality disorder could just " appear ".
Following along. Thank you for this discussion.

[Thunder]

Christina,

I don't believe, if you've known him since he was 10 years old, a personality disorder would just magically appear.

It would have manifested itself WAY before now. 

[Velika]

I have shared this elsewhere, but a friend who had postpartum depression told me what I was describing with my husband sounded very similar to her experience.

She said the urge to run away was very strong, that she felt like she was two different people, that she couldn't feel empathy for anyone, that she hated herself. She told me however that she wanted to run away because she felt that others would be better off without her, whereas in MLC it seems like the assertion is that the MLCer would be better off without the LBS.

But there are some peculiarities with MLC that I feel must offer clues as to what is going on as C4E explained. Some of the details are so very minor.

I was chatting with another HS member today and the similarities in some small details were incredible.

One thing I have seen on many threads and experienced myself is a) MLCer calling or threatening to call the police on the LBS; b) MLCer refusing to let the LBS touch him/her or acting "allergic" to the LBS when previously they had been affectionate; c) Hanging up or running away (literally) when talking to LBS; and d) Fearful look in the eyes.

Are these peculiar and specific traits a result of amygdala disfunction? Are they similar to any other syndrome?

[Ready2Transform]

I've seen them all mentioned surrounding serotonin levels, but again, you, me, and several others here are dealing with MLCers who may be having some sort of SSRI withdrawal or reaction. Mine described feeling as though he had a "burning aura" that would not allow me to touch him.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1837756 is a new one I hadn't found before, just to add to the bookmarks.

[Roma]

I don't feel the 'touch sensitivity' has anything to do with any drug withdrawal. My H takes nothing nad has that too.

It's all in their mind.

Reminds me of when children say someone has cooties lol

As far as PP depression I'd tend to agree it's similar. Just as a female menopausal symptoms also. Hormones play a major role.

[Not Applicable]

There was an article I came across in one of the resources threads here about midlife crisis in executives. It was not looking at it from the perspective of marital relations like we do, but in terms of the behavior of executives in organizations. One thing it talked about is something called alexithymia, an inability to recognize emotions.

I have posted elsewhere in these forums that my husband has admitted to me he has no feelings for anyone right now, that he does not miss me. and how he simply cannot fathom that I would miss him or be upset about our situation. He revealed this in a calm and caring (as caring as an MLCer can be) conversation between us. It wasn't an angry reaction as sometimes MLCers manifest if we show them we are upset. He truly did not understand how I could be upset and kept asking me why I would miss him as if this was such a strange concept.

It left me with a nagging feeling that there was some connection here and so now I looked up some research articles on alexithymia and it really has been a lightbulb moment for me. I haven't read much yet so I am not ready to put down my thoughts in full yet. But what I want to look for is how behavior my husband is showing and the behavior of MLCers described by so many others here corresponds to the behavior of those with alexithymia. I'm also curious how some of the advice that we find in articles by RCR or HB would be helpful in dealing with someone with alexithymia. For example, I read something about in alexithymia how they perceive negative emotions in themselves as being negative emotions in others.

We read about co-dependency between the MLCer and their spouse. We read so much about projection. I'm also wondering how detachment or going no contact could be a method that would help to force them to realize the negative emotions are within themselves because it cuts them off from the opportunity to (wrongly) perceive the negative emotions as coming from the spouse.

I am not entirely convinced that there is nothing we can do to help our MLCers. Maybe not directly, as it is a crisis within them, but I do believe our own behavior can impact the potential outcome FOR OURSELVES if we want a relationship with our spouse. If part of MLC is an enhanced feeling of negative emotions in others, for example, showing less negative emotions or not allowing the MLCer to perceive emotions of any kind in us may actually be beneficial to their perception of us. So when they perceive negative emotions, they are forced to recognize they are internal in the absence of any external stimuli.

I'm going to do more research on this topic. I think focusing on clusters of symptoms like this is more fruitful for those of us who don't have a background in hard sciences.

[Ready2Transform]

We talked about it at length - it was a big issue, prior to BD - and it definitely was a physical symptom. I've found reference to it, not described the same way he did, but it helped me to understand more what he was experiencing.