[Learning strength]

I think of the hurt and pain my h has put me and my kids through- and continues to do but I know he loves his kids so I don't think he's deliberately trying to hurt them- I really don't ...my h is dead inside, my kids therapist told me that after meeting with him 2x! I think because he has no emotion or real feelings that he doesn't understand that me and my kids do!! He has the same anger directed at me and my kids so I really don't think it's deliberate -   

[Medusa]

My experience is that its a combination. Early on, I tried antidepressants and had the "pleasure" of the bad reaction. He came home from work and took care of me as best he could. The next morning, he piled all his camping gear I'm the garage because he was taking OW camping. When I saw everything, I started sobbing. He heard me and asked what was wrong. He honestly didn't seem to understand that what he was doing was so painful, particularly since 24 hours before I was having suicidal thoughts. At other times, I know he wanted to hurt me. We seem to be in the place where he is being deliberately cruel to push me away. I haven't yet shared the fact that I'm done.

I suspect that their guilt plays a large role in pushing them to behave in ways that are so cruel. If they keep upping the ante, we will get fed up and leave, giving them what they want and theoretically relieving their guilt. I'm watching mine struggle with this as we wend our way through mediation. Sometimes he's very generous (a benefit of the guilt) and other times he's horrible and selfish. Curiously, at our last session, he was trying to renegotiate the spousal support then deflated somewhat and said his problem with it is the term. I guess in his mind, he doesn't want the idea of paying his former spouse every month for the next 13 years.

As far as compassion, I think we can have that on a strictly human level. I feel for the guy: he's a mess. I wish him no harm and hope he comes through this garbage reasonably intact. But that compassion is similar to the compassion I feel for any being in pain.

[Mitzpah]

This is an interesting discussion and I also feel that my h. has not deliberately tried to hurt me, in fact, when he has lashed out at me, he has apologized for being rude or angry. Nowadays, he has very little interaction with me but when it occurs, he is generally kind and polite, very distant.

However, what xyzcf quotes here is much more difficult for me to see...

 

In a state of depression Self love lies buried beneath rubble and until it surfaces the MLCer is incapable of showing love for anything or anyone. There is no caring substance, understanding this can help you to avoid interpreting the lack of caring making it personal. It is not personal; he is dead inside.

A person who is dead inside IMHO is not capable of deliberately doing anything. They are truly in survival mode and although their actions may feel cruel, they may indeed NOT be deliberate in their actions to hurt us.

You see, my h. is a very affectionate, loving person. A softie, if you like Anybody can twist him around their little finger and he is very demonstrative in his affections. This has not changed, except in relation to me

This is what makes me doubt MLC, when I see his overt affection towards OW, her kids, his friends, our children, his sisters and brother.... work colleagues, etc. This is what hooks our kids.

And, this is probably one of the things that most hurts me - I wonder if it is deliberate and his distancing is a way of avoiding his affectionate feelings for me (since OW probably would not approve).

Just pondering... a little confused

[DaRealist]

In my case, I can see how it is deliberate and at the same time she didn't want to hurt me.

My xw's bff has herpes and copd.  She has been divorced three times.  Her second husband persuaded her into the swinging lifestyle which resulted in them both contracting herpes.  Her second husband also molested both daughters and gave them herpes.  Now bff has three husbands that hate her and she has a love/hate relationship with both daughters because they feel like she turned a blind eye to their abuse.  This is a woman filled with self-hate and rage underneath her "friendly" exterior.  My xw went to her depressed (empty) and became a tool for bff to act out her secret rage.  I became the target.  Misery loves company so bff slowly pulled xw away from me and the kids.  It was easy since my xw was so empty inside.  Yet at the same time, bff would have had no influence over xw without xw already wanting to escape in the first place.

So I can see both sides.  When you are empty...well, not empty.  When you are harboring self-hate, disgust and regret, you become susceptible to bad influences -- other people, bad habits, self-medication, ect.  It's very hard to turn toward truth (light) when you are overrun with bad emotions (secrecy, darkness).  This is why they turn to others instead of their loving spouses.  The "others" they turn to are most likely people they can bond with (i.e. living in darkness themselves).  My xw talked to quite a few people behind my back early on.  She disregarded people that tried to get her to see the truth and turned toward the one person that fed into what she wanted to believe in the first place.

I suspect that their guilt plays a large role in pushing them to behave in ways that are so cruel. If they keep upping the ante, we will get fed up and leave, giving them what they want and theoretically relieving their guilt.

I think this is a very good explanation.

[bipolared]

I agree with Medusa that it is a combination and I also think her explanation of their guilt pushing them to be cruel is spot on.  One time recently he said,"I was thinking.  If you moved out, dated someone for 4 months and then started dating someone else, I would be like, F you, have a nice life".  I know there are times where he is doing something and he is obviously pushing for a reaction;  if he doesn't get it, he will throw out some bait to make sure I am still there.  There were times when he lived at home, however, where he said and did very cruel things but seemed to have no awareness of it.  I would point it out to him and he would say with wonderment, "Why don't I see this?".  It wasn't an act.  As a matter of fact, I think if I reminded him of some of it now he would have no memory of it, would deny it with genuine disbelief.

[Lanzo]

I suspect that their guilt plays a large role in pushing them to behave in ways that are so cruel. If they keep upping the ante, we will get fed up and leave, giving them what they want and theoretically relieving their guilt.

This also sums it up for me.

My xW went out of her way to be cruel and hurtful to get me to react in a bad way to add a bit of meat to her bogus break up   story. It sounds much better to her assembled audience if she could say "Lanzo walked out on me" or "Lanzo was abusive to me." Towards the end a lot stuff went over my head but D13 started to notice it.

 The last bad thing xW did after we had an argument in the house was to soak my bed and duvet with water, call the police to say I had abused her then ran of to her mothers house. Funny thing was when the police interviewed her and asked if I had hit her she said "No,  but he's not afraid to". ( was the reaction of the police).

So yes, I follow the school of thought that they know that they are hurting us.


Lanzo

[living with Hope]

There were times when he lived at home, however, where he said and did very cruel things but seemed to have no awareness of it.  I would point it out to him and he would say with wonderment, "Why don't I see this?".  It wasn't an act.  As a matter of fact, I think if I reminded him of some of it now he would have no memory of it, would deny it with genuine disbelief.


You are so correct on this.  I haven't thought of that in awhile.  My husband was the same.  He would mock me, imitate me in a cruel way ...  .  I have brought them up later when he was in a better frame and I thought he was cycling towards me or in counselling and he honestly looked shocked and had no real memory.   Or if he did, he would try to brush it away with that we both said and did crazy things then. 

Some times I thought he was in  fight for your life battle when I was around.  He had to be cruel to save himself kind of thing.  He did say to me one night after he took a good round out of me emotionally and I was crying beyond crying - "you make me be a d!ck to you".  I remember looking at him in total shock and confusion.  Like how, like why do I make you?  I am begging you to get help, to think your thoughts through.  I am telling you how much I love you, want you, need you and this makes you be this cruel to me. 

I think that was the night I decided he must have a brain tumour - what else could it be? 

[trusting]

FWIW, my husband is pretty far along in his crisis (six years, so let's hope we are at least heading into the home stretch.  Won't hold my breath).  Recently during a "conversation" we were having (no rational conversations with an MLC, unfortunately), I happened to mention a few of the particularly horrible or irrational things he has said over the past few years, things which certainly seemed intentionally and deliberately said.  He has absolutely no recollection of them.  None.  He even said that he would never say something like that. 

They are just crazy. 

[Neo]

I believe in the beginning that they are trying to hurt us, but I believe they are doing it for two reasons.

First, is that they associate us with their pain, that has been manifesting itself inside, for potentially years. As we all know, people who love other people can pay a high price for that closeness. Remember they are seeing us as a reflection of themselves and as such, they are very angry at themselves, thus the reason for the projection that they throw at us. We  have a choice to let it get to us or not. In the outset, we are in shock and denial, not knowing what is going on. The MLCer has the upper hand, through confusion and manipulation. But, as time progresses, we gain the upper hand, if we learn and grow. We understand them and are able to diffuse the situation through love, understanding, compassion and detachment. They then lose all of the power that they had in the beginning. We have to also remember that they are playing a game with us, by trying to incite us through threats, manipulation and lies. Once we learn the game and respond instead of react, we take away all of their power.

Secondly they are attempting to hurt us in order to distance themselves  from the intense pain and confusion that they have within themselves. We have to look at them as being an injured animal. Any animal that is injured has a natural tendency to lash out at anything and anyone that comes too close. They are only trying to protect themselves in their weakened state. MLCer's are doing the same thing, they are trying to protect themselves from further pain, by making sure that no one sees them in a weakened state. The state that they are in is pretty sorry, indeed. They have no sense of self, no hope, no joy, just nothingness. That has to be a very scary place to be in and since we have no frame of reference because we haven't experienced the same thing, there is really no way for us to understand what they are experiencing. All we see is the anger, the vicious attacks and the running away from everything that they used to be and hold near and dear to themselves. We take it as a personal attack on us, when in fact it isn't, but that is our perception. There is no way we can get in their messed up minds to really see what they see or feel what they feel. As you can see in many of the stories on this forum, as time passes and the LBS learns the game and how to respond and the MLCer gets further along in the process, things begin to change, most of the time for the better. 

[trusting]

First, is that they associate us with their pain, that has been manifesting itself inside, for potentially years. As we all know, people who love other people can pay a high price for that closeness. Remember they are seeing us as a reflection of themselves and as such, they are very angry at themselves, thus the reason for the projection that they throw at us.

I think you are absolutely right about that.

I will say, too, that we know them better than anyone on the planet.  And during MLC, they don't like that at all.