[Songanddance]

I think that I was in a codependent R with H but not to the depth of obssessiveness.
I certainly had a passive aggressive mother and realise that I carried it on by never saying what I was feeling but trying to express myself and stropping when I wasn't listened to.
I felt dismissed by H from time to time - when I complained about work or something else and said that I felt angry - his response was to say "well don't be"
That made me feel worthless but such was my need for his approval that I thought there was something wrong with me.
This was also perpetuated by my guilt at having a brief fling 17 years ago. I felt so grateful that he didn't throw me out and full of remorse that I changed who I was for the next 15 years till BD. 
Now when I think back to that evening when H found out, I remember saying that I felt depressed as it was not longer after my dad had died, I had just had my son and I wasn't able to have maternity leave for financial reasons and H had not been at all helpful during that year. I remember saying to H that if he really wanted to sort this situation out, he had to accept some responsibility for the breakdown in our R for me to choose to stray.  He just said, and this is a clear as BD, - "Well when I believe that what you say is valid - I'll do as you ask. But for now I don't and won't believe a word you say for a long time."
 I was too shocked and I knew that I wanted our marriage and our children. So I said nothing for the next 15 years and became co-dependent - guilt and seeing him as an extension of me. I allowed him to "control" me over the last few years (which I now see as his denial) and felt that I was responsible for his happiness.
And yet like nah - we had an R where we each did things that were mutually beneficial - I thought that was the way marriage went.

I think though that because he is such a clinger and will not leave us alone he is still co-dependent and sees me as an extension of himself.

[Anjae]

I get it in the sense it seems to be used here and in some therapy terms, but it does make any sense to me. Like I said, for me it is only something that would apply to an extreme situation.

Of course in a couple both spouses depend of each other. It is the normal nature of being pared. And all humans depend of each other. It is part of our most ancient and primeval nature. We would have not made it as a species if we did not depend of each others.

Me and Mr J each had its share of responsibilities. Some things we share, other each of us did on its own. But I never had problems with domestic tasks. I worked from home, so I had more time to them, but Mr J always helped. And if I was ill, or did not wanted to do something, he would do it. Or none of us would do it and we did the day after. I think we were pretty relaxed. Relaxed, not lazy or messy.

And it was indeed a partnership that worked very well, both in personal as well as in professional terms. Together we were better and more than the sum of the parts. But we were two different individuals and I never felt responsible for Mr J emotions. And don't think he felt for mine. No, no feeling of never had been good enough for me. And none for pre MLC Mr J. We always thought we were enough and liked each other the way we were.

Was it all a bed of roses? Of course not. All couples have ups and downs, good and bad.

Early crisis Mr J was an über clinger but I think that is just MLC stuff. It has been years since we are both total distancers. Pre crisis he was always able to stay on his won when I was away and I was always able to stay on my own when he was away.

Since I always tend to see things more from a human heritage perspective, there are lots of terms, many from therapy or psychology, that do not make sense to me, even if I know their technical meaning.

[HeartTattoo]

What do you all understand the meaning of co-dependence to be and do you believe that you or your MLCer had traits/elements of that in your R pre BD?

I guess my irritation at the way "co-dependent" is thrown about is because of my experience with my H's active alcoholism 24 years ago.  Some literature seems to assume that the spouse of an addict is automatically co-dependent.  I did not necessarily handle the situation well because I didn't have the knowledge or support I needed.  I have found the parallels between my H's drinking problem & MLC striking.  I thought I could appeal rationally & logically to his sense of responsibility, to his integrity, to his intellect.  But, of course, I could not.  He was in complete denial until the moment he wasn't (when he was arrested for DWI). 

I didn't blame myself for his drinking; I didn't hold myself responsible for his behavior.  When I saw him cross the line & as a health care provider potentially endanger patients, I went to his boss.

Thanks, Medusa, for your understandable explanation of co-dependence.  Much as nah has described, my M was one of inter-dependence.  We each did the tasks we enjoyed & had competence for.  I always saw us as each others' best friend; that's how our R had started.  I thought we had reached a place in our very long-term M where we didn't need much in-depth emotional discussion.  My emotional needs were being met by our M, my R with my kids, my family, my friends, my volunteer activities, my personal interests.  I had little sign that my H was not getting his emotional needs met.  There had been NO discussion that he needed more.  No arguing or resentment or any other sign that all was not well.

In hindsight though, perhaps H had held me responsible for his emotional needs, his "happiness".  In his covert depression, with the trigger of work problems, perhaps H held me responsible for his unhappiness & set about finding "someone who liked him" to supply him with positive emotional vibes.  Isn't this the way we describe MLC?  So perhaps most (all?) MLCers are to some extent co-dependent upon their spouse & hold them responsible for their lack of "happiness", seeking another outside source (the OP generally) to provide what they now believe their spouse should have supplied, but didn't.

I explored the topic of co-dependence some with my IC & he assured me that I didn't display signs of it,.  He differentiated between love & dependency needs.  He would say that I may continue to always love my H, but that my dependency needs for him would diminish.  I see this as the eventual lessening of the LBS's horrible longing for the physical presence, the affection/sexual relations, the positive regard, & all of the interdependent sharing of an established life together.

The other interesting thing he said was that "dependency needs can be transferred, but love cannot be transferred".  In other words, the MLCer is getting his dependency needs filled by the OP, but that he can't just "give" the love he had for his spouse to the OP.  Perhaps the basis for the ILYBINILWY speech.  And one thing that returning MLCers seem to remember is that they never stopped loving the spouse they had left behind, no matter how dazzled they seemed to be with their "new R".

[in it]

Song and Dance..big light bulb moment for me in your post    ..I felt the same way in the marriage and did also the same things you did.

[Songanddance]

"dependency needs can be transferred, but love cannot be transferred".

Spot on HT's IC !!! Spot on and is almost the title of another thread. It just made me remember this..
H saw our oldest D a few weeks ago He hadn't seen her for months (both of them ostriches) although they had exchanged texts as both have been diagnosed Coeliac. He said " I love your mum more than life itself but my friendship ( ) with OW is mutually beneficial for our needs. 

[UKStander]

He said " I love your mum more than life itself but my friendship ( ) with OW is mutually beneficial for our needs. 

Wow. Now there's transparency for you.  That tells me more about MLC than almost anything else I've read or heard.   Your H knows about his 'needs' - that should at least make it easier for him to understand the work to be done, once he really starts on The Work? Most people, I imagine, aren't even aware of their inner needs, only the pain of them not being met.

[Medusa]

Thanks, Medusa, for your understandable explanation of co-dependence. 

You're welcome. Glad my explanation made sense.

I was thinking about this last night and remembered something: He told me when I started my doctorate that if I pursued it,we would get divorced because of the amount of time it would take. That, I think, is a huge sign of co-dependence. I was supposed to be there for him at all times. I was supposed to do things fir us and for him. Not for me. The funny thing is that one of the reasons I was working for the degree was because I wanted to get a job with a much higher salary so I could buy him the airplane he always dreamed of. That may sound nuts, but I loved the man that much.

The other interesting thing he said was that "dependency needs can be transferred, but love cannot be transferred".  In other words, the MLCer is getting his dependency needs filled by the OP, but that he can't just "give" the love he had for his spouse to the OP.  Perhaps the basis for the ILYBINILWY speech.  And one thing that returning MLCers seem to remember is that they never stopped loving the spouse they had left behind, no matter how dazzled they seemed to be with their "new R".

I love this. Certainly love cannot be transferred, and I think them getting their needs met by someone else is the basis for ILYBINILWY. I think, too, they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves. At least, that's how it worked with mine. I don't knowm much about the R with OW, but I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.

Just remembered...I mentioned to him when he still lived here that I thought we were c-d. He dismissed it, of course. But just after BD, he was talking a lot about emotional intelligence. In retrospect, he knew he was emotionally immature. He knew he was looking to me to fulfill his needs. It took me awhile, but. I did come to understand that my needs were going unfulfilled because of his voracious appetite. That's the true sadness and dangers of a real c-d relationship.

[Songanddance]

Certainly love cannot be transferred, and I think them getting their needs met by someone else is the basis for ILYBINILWY. I think, too, they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves. At least, that's how it worked with mine. I don't knowm much about the R with OW, but I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.

Ditto ditto ditto......Totally agree and mirror this.

[nah]

Certainly love cannot be transferred, and I think them getting their needs met by someone else is the basis for ILYBINILWY. I think, too, they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves. At least, that's how it worked with mine. I don't knowm much about the R with OW, but I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.

Ditto ditto ditto......Totally agree and mirror this.

I agree with this too.  I asked my husband straight out if he loved her.  He had no problem saying he had sex with her, that he was going to live with her, but he would not say that he loved her.  Just kept repeating that he needed to be happy.

[Songanddance]

Ah - very early on my H did volunteer that he had told OW he loved her. He also wanted to know how it was possible to love two women at the same time.  I realised then - he had a screw loose and told him there could be no comparison between the marital love of 15 years with the fanatsy love of 5 months.

Now he still sees her - think it's the band aid and soothing behaviour that keeps him attached. Let's put it this way - he has talked of as being stupid, she and her children are dysfunctional and he never told me that she was his soulmate. Ummm H.....you did - several times.

How does this help the stages of the LBS though?  It helps us see the wheat from the chaff and it also helps our understanding that OW is nothing and he is in crisis.  It also probably helps us understand what co-dependency is as the needs are transferred because  a co-dependent person is needy.