[MelanieB]

For some of us, it is important to try to understand what went wrong, to try to make sense of what happened to our lives.  Where did that tsunami come from, how could we not see it coming, are we completely blind?  Where were we when the signs were presenting themselves?  The affair is to ease the MLC depression and it is the most painful sign for the LBS, but the wild carefree spending can be extremely dangerous too.  Sometimes we can only piece together the signs in retrospect. Because as they happened one by one, they just looked like careless mistakes or poor choices or simple bad luck.  But after the fact, well we then get to see that it has more of a pattern to it. 

My H:  Begins affair, buys me no christmas present that year, 5 mos later his father dies, we are talking one night 6 wks after his dad's death and he gets up in the middle of the conversation (about the cost of H paying for his dad's second funeral, yes my H gave his estranged dad a second funeral in our state where dad had not lived for 25 yrs) and leaves- taking nothing - and never returns, buys a new expensive car two weeks later, files for divorce within 4 wks of leaving but he did call the house once to see if I missed him or if the kids missed him.  He had made 8 other exits (over the years) of several days duration, he was childlike in his problem-solving skillset, more of the sort "I'll run away where you can't find me  and then you'll learn a lesson" and would try to gain power in this way.  He would come home after I call to plead with him to return.  But this time I knew about the affair (thanks to my kids) and vowed not to contact him.  Within three months he was fired from his job (assuming for the affair, so inappropriate betw two profesional coworkers), she dumps him the minute he gets fired.  They don't fire her...

He then buys books on repairing the marriage (this came out in the Disclosure Process of the Divorce, I saw all his credit card charges) but never does anything with them because they advocate honesty and full disclosure and gift giving and doing "acts of service".  Laughingly those things must have stuck in his throat because int  because these were all the things that he hated doing!!  So he joins a gym, for two months.  Then abandons that.  Buys a new bike (didn't take his old one with him on his exit) and takes up biking, for about two months but he abandons that.  Starts hiking.  Stops doing that.  Then he buys a kayak (we have 3 yaks here already, but he didn't take those either).  My son goes kayaking with him once, so guess what?  He buys yet another kayak.  Now he has two (Keep in mind there are 3 stored in my garage collecting dust, but no matter;  by all means, go buy two more).  Reconciliation never happens and divorce finals because he still sees himself as the victim.  Always the victim.  No accountability for anything.  I think this is how we know that there is much more going on.  So there are ISSUES that show evidence of more than an affair...the constant confusion, lack of decision-making, forgetfulness (for which he has a prescrip for Androgel, and though it may assist his memory, it makes him angrier and when I see the doc next time I must remember to thank him for that!).  The lack of remorse, the character change, the "oblivious to destruction", the constant running from the darkness...these are the hallmarks of something much more than just an affair. 

[ece711]

Just with MLC there is greater chance of them returning once they get through the tunnel.   A normal affair they will also try and hide it totally and when it comes out they will often choose their spouse over OP in MLC they throw the spouse under the bus.

Ultimatums don't work


Sorry your here but it really is a good place to get support

And by stating that there is a greater chance of them returning it also brings up an interesting dynamics, whether some of us here would really like to think that it is MLC.  Some get stuck longer because the focus is to where the progress of their MLCer is they forget to work on themselves.  That's why in any MLC site they always mention Detachment and GAL.

[Shantilly Lace]

That's true about LBS getting stuck on their partner which was why I also stated that it didn't matter in any case the LBS should be treating it the same way. Just MLC takes much much longer to see any reaction from them.

[rememberer]

Just a few other tidbits that I think are important in determining the difference between MLC and  just ending a relationship: Usually those in MLC are middle-aged( approx. between 40-60) and they have been married to the same spouse for a significant amount of time(approx. 2o yrs give or take) and the relationship worked for most of those yrs. It's not the same as someone whose married just a few yrs. and thinks they made a mistake. All marriages and relationships have problems, but most of those married for that length of time, had pretty good marriages.

The timing I think is also important. They are reviewing their lives thus far, and wondering what they want for the next half of their lives, the kids are usually older and leaving home and I believe that triggers something in them too. They are starting to feel and face getting older and they don't like it, and are trying to return to their youth and do all kinds of things like major exersizing, muscle building, dressing often ridiculously younger and partying up, like when they were teenager.

They shirk a lot responsibilty for kids, bills, anything to do with homelife and prefer freedom. They self-medicate by drinking lots, drugs, the affair and they seem to have lost ability to empathize, make appropriate emotional decisions, and some cognitive decison-making seems poor, as well.

I believe the theory of that it has a lot to do with changing hormones, but also of dealing with their identity and childhood developmental issues as well. Most of thes people have been dependable, devoted and actually really good spouses and fathers in the past.

It's all so confusing but the more I see it, the more I have come to believe it. I think it should be catagorized into a syndrome because there are so many common characteristics in terms of language, behaviour and attitude that I have seen over and over again.
I don't claim to be an expert, but this is what I know from what I have experienced and seen others experience as well. It's very uncanny.

[Rollercoasterider]

Thanks for bringing this up. It has been a topic I’ve been thinking about a lot lately.

I would like to discuss how to know whether or not one's spouse is actually having a MLC. I have read Conway's book and believe I have some idea of the signs.
Reading through the forum I'm not sure all of our spouses are actually in a MLC. So many of the stories focus only on the affair and the OW. An affair could mean anything. Where are the other signs?
Somewhere I saw RCR ask whether or not it mattered. Maybe it doesn't, but to me I think it does. So many people don't believe in MLC or believe it's just an excuse for bad behavior. If we just label every affair a MLC, then maybe they are right. Are there no distinguishing features? I realize it's hard or impossible to know for sure, but shouldn't we try to help each other determine whether or not our spouses are really in a MLC?

• The affair partner is their "soul mate" they love them deeply from the get go.
• No one sees it coming, often in a normal affair people are aware something is happening and the spouse is "last to know". In MLC everyone is gobsmacked. taken by surprise when bomb drop happens.
• they often flit between the spouse and OP.
• they will walk out not taking anything except a few things.
• They RARELY organise things before hand.
• Their personality changes totally not just toward you but toward everyone.
• They will cut off family, friends, their own children.

Now these are just generalities but the reason it doesn't matter as much is whether they are MLC or not you do the same things. Just with MLC there is greater chance of them returning once they get through the tunnel. A normal affair they will also try and hide it totally and when it comes out they will often choose their spouse over OP in MLC they throw the spouse under the bus.
Ultimatums don't work.

Like it or not, Lovisntweakness is correct and some of the points from Shantilly’s list are inaccurate. I will review those in a moment. But first let’s consider affair types.

Chronic philanderer or Brief Encounters: Is your spouse a chronic philanderer seeking either brief one-night stands or flings? Could this be a person who has a sex addiction?
The behaviours associated with that type of infidelity do not match up with what we see as MLC behaviours.

Exit Affair: An affair that was intended as an excuse to leave the marriage. Did your spouse leave without looking back—remove all their belongings, probably filed quickly and may have vanished unless there are children involved? May or may not remain cordial.
It’s a bit harder now isn’t it? Some MLCers vanish, some file quickly, some take all of their stuff. That doesn’t mean an Exit Affair is also MLC, but does it mean it is not MLC? It’s a subjective line. How the Standing spouse handles it may make the important difference.

Emotionally-Bonded Affair: This is an affair fueled by in-fatuative addiction. They believe they are soul mates.
Sound familiar? But this does not mean it is or is not MLC. An MLC affair is an emotionally-bonded affair just like squares are rectangles.

But can infidelity trigger MLC? Usually the infidelity is the main symptom. It does not usually start when the MLC starts—at trigger time—but it for many the first notice that something is not right. But some spouses do notice changes that precede infidelity, others only notice in hind sight. But think about it, can infidelity where there is an emotional bond facilitate conditions for a crisis of identity?
Why not?
What about an exit affair, could the couple involved become caught up in in-fatuation by surprise?
Why not? If they can and are caught up in in-fatuation then the exit-affair becomes and emotionally bonded affair. The betraying spouse was running from the relationship which indicates problems in the marriage and perhaps there are more problems than in other marriages involving emotionally-bonded affairs.

The reason I have said it might not make a difference if it is MLC or infidelity is because emotionally-bonded affairs that did not start as MLC may still play out in the same manner: projection and blame, monster, guilt and shame…

I don’t know, but the big difference might be spending and that is not an MLC litmus anyway. But an non-MLCer in an emotionally-bonded affair may still spend, but maybe the spending is more focused on the alienator and the relationship rather than on toys. That’s just a speculation…

I was reading a thread over at DB between the MLCers and the Infidelity forum—the thread was from late Summer to Autumn. Several MLCers came in and tried to talk about the differences, and they told the Infidelity Posters that the addiction was for the infidelity people and not MLC—at least that was how I read it.
Um…no. MLC makes the person more susceptible to the addictive nature of infidelity. One former MLCer said that his alienator felt like his best friend, not his soul mate. Perhaps, but that is not the case with all, and how did he feel during his MLC and how did it appear to others?

Someone going through an emotionally-bonded affair will be in a high. Replay is a high. Consider that when the affair is over they may crash and experience a depression.
An emotionally-bonded affair that does not involve or become MLC may end sooner than a typical MLC affair…or it may not. Much may depend on the alienator and the level of emotional blackmail involved. An affair can outlast addiction because emotional blackmail takes over. I don’t think the addiction lasted long in Sweetheart’s affair because the emotional blackmail was so severe. The two elements may have co-existed for awhile, but the emotional blackmail is an element that reveals the true person behind the fantasy and may facilitate the breaking of the addiction—just a speculation.

Okay, let’s look Shantilly’s list.

The affair partner is their "soul mate" they love them deeply from the get go.
This one is the easiest and the point has already been made. An emotionally-bonded affair is an addiction in which the partners feel they are each other’s soul mates. It even surprised me that the DB thread talked about this being a quality important for the infidelity forum and not MLC—in my days over there we talked about the addiction and soul-mate issue as quite relevant.

No one sees it coming, often in a normal affair people are aware something is happening and the spouse is "last to know". In MLC everyone is gobsmacked. taken by surprise when bomb drop happens.
This is not true. Many people have no idea their spouse is having an affair. Some remain hidden for years. Some are fling affairs that last for years where the couple may meet up once a week for sex and there may be no clues.

they often flit between the spouse and OP.
In a straight-forward exit affair they will not flit. Actually they may if they return out of duty for the kids, but the marriage will feel false. But in an emotionally-bonded affair there is great confusion. The person feels extreme highs but may also feel extreme guilt. They are susceptible to their spouses pain and moods and may try to end the affair and come home only to leave again because of the addiction. This seems to be the main type of affair discussed at the DB infidelity forum—before the October purge. They advocate different ways of handling the affair than the MLC forum, but maybe the methods do not need to be so different. Some of their methods end the affair quickly for some of the people. Maybe those cases where the methods don’t end the affair as quickly are more MLC. I am at present looking into their methods but I am too early in my studies to share them here because they are still a bit muddled in my mind. I’m hoping to write about it for a Newsletter Article in 2011.

they will walk out not taking anything except a few things.
They RARELY organise things before hand.
In an exit affair they may walk out and be organized. But an emotionally-bonded affair person is living a fantasy. Some don’t realize that to truly fulfill the fantasy they have to completely sever the old life. They just want to jump and thus they may not take stuff or they may. Remember, it is an addiction and all they are interested in is the high. They may or may not think of divorce because it’s just not in their thoughts. They may want one now or later and think of it, but both thoughts and action take too much energy away from the affair high.

Their personality changes totally not just toward you but toward everyone.
They will cut off family, friends, their own children.
An addiction can cause changes in personality. That doesn’t mean the changes are permanent, but the force of the hormones is running the show. As for family, consider how junkies treat their families.

Usually those in MLC are middle-aged( approx. between 40-60) and they have been married to the same spouse for a significant amount of time(approx. 20 yrs give or take) and the relationship worked for most of those yrs.

Remeberer, you make excellent points in through entire post.

Jung gave the range as 35-50, but as the average lifespan increases this is more accurate. I also notice differences in the younger MLCers of that range from the older MLCers. As for the length of marriage…20+ works for the older end of the range and perhaps 10 or 12+ for the younger end.

The timing I think is also important. They are reviewing their lives thus far, and wondering what they want for the next half of their lives.

Very true. But could an emotionally-bonded affair initiate a life review?
Why not?

the kids are usually older and leaving home and I believe that triggers something in them too.

Not so much anymore since many people are waiting to have children. Yes, this is a triggering factor for many, but there are also many MLCers in those same age ranges with younger children.

They are starting to feel and face getting older and they don't like it, and are trying to return to their youth and do all kinds of things like major exercising, muscle building, dressing often ridiculously younger and partying up, like when they were teenager.

Absolutely true. But consider what a person does to impress a love interest in the in-fatuation stages; vanity is also a symptom of in-fatuation and thus these same behaviours may be exhibited by non-MLCers in emotionally-bonded affairs. If the alienator is younger, this may trigger feelings and fears of aging.

They shirk a lot responsibility for kids, bills, anything to do with home life and prefer freedom. They self-medicate by drinking lots, drugs, the affair.

True of MLCers and addicts in general. An emotionally-bonded affair is an addiction.

they seem to have lost ability to empathize, make appropriate emotional decisions, and some cognitive decision-making seems poor, as well.

Definitely true and perhaps there is an aging element to the cognitive decisions. But I don’t think so—aging studies don’t show this. I think a better explanation is the addiction hormones and with an MLCer the identity crisis also but not only.

I believe the theory of that it has a lot to do with changing hormones, but also of dealing with their identity and childhood developmental issues as well. Most of these people have been dependable, devoted and actually really good spouses and fathers in the past.

Definitely. An emotionally-bonded affair may trigger childhood issues, but this seems to me a bigger distinction. Though MLC or not, a person in an emotionally-bonded affair may have been a model parent and husband.

As I research and study more on the differences I will prepare my article. Perhaps initial methods of dealing with it upon discovery should be similar and the reactions observed may help determine whether it is MLC. The hard part right now is that some think those initial methods may damage an MLC situation, but I don’t think so. They involve boundaries of the type that are always important—respect-boundaries. But they will take a strong person to be able to pull them off.

[trusting]

My big clue was the change in personality - really almost a complete opposite person during replay/around the time of the bomb than the man I had known for almost 20 years.  He wanted to run from EVERYTHING, not just me/the kids. 

Gradually, I see him changing back into "himself" again as he works his way through.

[Buggy31]

  Okay now I'm confused...a lot of what RCR wrote makes me feel like how could we every know because infatuation hormones are part of the MLC affair and regular affairs and they are incredibly addictive and powerful...Here's some observations I have made in my sitch that continue to show me it's a MLC...

1.  I could sense something really wrong happening about a year prior to the affair starting.  I know that there was no affair at that time because my H didn't know her yet.  There had been years of denial of "feelings" and a REAL fear of intimacy. However the year before I saw him slip away there was a clear year of ANGER...with odd tantrums...and a real distancing...and grasping and TOTAL disregard for me and my feelings.

2.  Lots of vanity, working out..couldn't walk past a mirror without looking

3.  The children...my goodnes...lots of childlike personas presenting themselves.  This progressively became more common as he slipped into DEEP replay...I saw babylike behavior, school age behavior (6-8 yrs) and teenage behavior, and perhaps 20ish behavior.  This was also very connected to music...my H would sing music from these times...as well...like songs that were hits when he was born, or songs that were popular when he was school aged and teenager.  It was a very CLEAR pattern.  I also would here LANGUAGE indictative of those times.  I don't have much interaction with H now so it's hard to tell if these childlike personas are still presenting.  For me this is one of the biggest indicators of my H's MLC, a real sign that he has returned to childhood.  I have even had interactions with him where I got the sense that he didn't see me as his wife at all and was CONFUSED at why my two-year old daughter was insisting he kiss me.  This is a very strange aspect of MLC and sometimes was difficult for me to watch.  My D8 even picked up on it when he was living here.


4.  MONSTER during NC.  It seems like when I remove myself from my H he lashes out at me even more.  I feel that in an affair that type of attachment albeit negative wouldn't manifest.  I don't know I could be wrong.

This is just the sense I get from my sitch...also lots of confusion...lots

[followingbliss]

Looking forward to RCRs article on this one as it just seems to get more complicated . Thought I would offer my own perspective as I have also had an affair which my husband discovered  approx  2and a half years before BD, something which I believe to be the "trigger event" for his own MLC.

My own affair was an emotionally bonded affair

Emotionally-Bonded Affair: This is an affair fueled by in-fatuative addiction. They believe they are soul mates.
Sound familiar? But this does not mean it is or is not MLC. An MLC affair is an emotionally-bonded affair just like squares are rectangles.

I do not feel I was in MLC but was infatuated with OM until I eventually ( after about 13 months of PA) came to see him as weak (and myself!)  and not someone I wanted to spend my future with, coupled with a corresponding internal recommitment to my H and my M. I can definitely identify with the soul mate component from both myself and OM, I also projected blame for the A on my husband ( focused upon him being unsupportive and his depressive personality !). My husband was totally unaware of my A until discovery approx 2 months after it had ended , I did not do monster or display any Replay behaviours (othr than losing weight, taking an interest in my appearance which I feel would be typical of any A MLC or not), indeed my husband indicated that I deserved an acting aard for carrying on so normally whilst conducting the A, ie I had no personality change and continued to function in demanding job and being wife and mother. I experienced significant shame and remorse during the A, on discovery and to this day ! I have expressed this to my H throughout

Fast forward to today and why I feel my H's A is different and that my H is in MLC.  BD was July this year some of the things I feel make his an MLC case are:

complete personality change -from dutiful and loving man to selfish monster spewing alien

periods of vanishing alternating with sporadic contact with kids and a complete abandonment of old friends and family

replay style behaviours including new hobbies and grungy style of dress (shoes with holes in  ) slang style of talking

No planning , despite saying marriage over  and doesnt love me at BD made no moves to get out - has now been left 6 weeks (largely prompted by me as I found his monster and cake eating too much - I know we should let them go of own accord but I wasnt able to take it)

Memory loss have to repeat several conversations

Lies about OW -is not able to admit he is in R with her

Running behaviours - can be at the house for hours and doesnt remove coat and hat, frequently stands to drink his cup of tea and actually stands near the door of our living room with one foot on the wall (behind him as if he is ready to launch himself like a runner -get the picture )

Negative attachment- turns up to do Monster - an example it would have been our 20th Wedding Anniversary this week , I honour it by going to the church we were married in to pray for our M ( I am not religious but it felt like something I wanted to do). He honours it by turning up unexpectedly having not been NC for over a week to collect furniture for his new rented house from our garage, stomps about throwing furniture swearing and snarling at me throughout - Happy Anniversary ! Next day again unexpected returns silent and depressed eats something falls asleep watches TV with us then leaves late hey ho !

Im not sure if this is helpful but I am clear that our situations are different even if the Affair attachments have similarities. I dont feel I was MLC but feel confident that my husband is ( in addition to above he has childhood issues alcoholic/mental health issues divorced parents etc , I am from stable and loving family).  On discovering this site I decided to stand and feel that MLC offers me some hope , even if we have spouses with emotionally bonded affairs however my own perspective is that these too can run their course and need not signify the end of the M. On discovery my husband wanted me to stay and I wanted that too, we have struggled and now with his MLC don't know what the outcome will be but looks like we are headed for "Interesting Times"

Wishing you all JOy, Peace and ...........Hope this festive season

[Voyager]

Hi all,
This is a really interesting topic, i have a question of RCR from my own perspective

Jung gave the range as 35-50, but as the average lifespan increases this is more accurate. I also notice differences in the younger MLCers of that range from the older MLCers. As for the length of marriage…20+ works for the older end of the range and perhaps 10 or 12+ for the younger end.

What do you see as the differences between the older and younger MLCers? My h is 56, but I think the cracks appeared when he was in his early 50's before going on to full replay behaviour last year.

[Glimmer]

Hey FollowingBliss

My H does exactly the same.  He will stand in the doorway for ages and not sit down, as though he is ready to bolt at any time. Sits with his coat on etc.  I have also noticed he just DOESN'T listen most of the time to anything we say.  His eyes are glued to the tv and we can't believe he doesn't hear us. The girls look at me and roll their eyes, because the tv is so much more interesting than anything we have to say to him, and we wonder why he visits at all.

Another thing I have noticed, certain foods and meals I used to prepare and which he used to love, he says he no longer likes them because they 'don't agree with him, if I ask if he wants to eat with us, he has a habit of pulling a face like a young child does when asked to eat vegetables.

He has had a complete personality change to the extent that his own parents say he feels like a stranger to them.  For 20years he was a kind, caring responsible husband and father, always putting us first. When this MLC hit he said he wasn't particularly unhappy, just not happy!!!. He had put everyone else first for years, so it was time to put himself first because he had never had a youth. He had been bored for 4years, yet not one person including me had seen any evidence of that. We were always very close, spending any free time together, we were both home birds. Now he is like a whirlwind, has to cram every minute full of activity, because when he stops he is so exhausted he sleeps so he doesn't have to think about what he is doing.