[Anjae]

I was writing while you posted, Velika. Here is what I was writing.

My mother had several mini strokes. They went undetected for years. Until her personality started to change, she started to forgot things, etc. The symptoms were the same ones a person with early Alzheimer's would show.

Mum did the Alzheimer's tests, it was not Alzheimer's. Then she did more tests. They reveled it was Vascular Dementia, cause by the several ischemic mini strokes. Mum does not have dead eyes nor the circles under the eyes.

And her personality change, when it changes, is not similar to what I have witness with Mr J, my cousin who had MLC or the real life MLCer I know.

As for the evidence, I have my cousin and the former real life MLCers I know. They went back to normal. No more dead eyes, no more circles, or bags, under the eyes.

Mini strokes can be the cause in individual cases, but they are not the cause for most MLCers. If they were, MLCers would not go back to normal.

Do MLCers brain cells die because of their crisis? I do not know. They may. But the reason may be different than interrupted oxygen to the brain because of blockage or rupture or a brain artery.

Grandmother has had serious/big strokes. Her personality did not change, but one of them left her the right side of her body impaired, meaning the stroke was on the brain's left side.

Stokes was one of the things we studied in the neurobiology course. Nothing of what was studied, nor my real live experience with people with both mini and major strokes, and MLC, makes me think the cause of MLC changes is related to mini strokes.

Like I said above, that can be the cause for an individual, but not for MLC as a whole. What we seen happening to MLCers once the crisis is over, as well as several of their behaviours, does not point for mini strokes to be the cause.

There may be a chemical reason behind the shark eyes, but stokes are cerebrovascular accident , they are not chemistry related. They do not happen because of imbalance brain chemicals. Nor because of hormones.

As for the brain itself, one thing we often forget is that the brain also has an eclectic part. The brain has a circuit that is similar to an electric one. Neurons use electrical signs.

The brain is very complex, and there are several issues/illnesses/disorders that can seem one thing and are another. But the main thing to have in consideration with MLC is that, MLCers that come out of crisis go back to normal. That sets it apart from many mental and neurological issues. It makes it more similar to hormonal issues.

Hormonal issues that can cause personality changes, think thyroid, for example, when corrected, will allow a person to go back to normal.

Personally, I can only go with what is observed in most MLCers. Since we are not conducting tests, the one things that stands out in all MLCes is high levels of stress, along with depression. The causes of the depression can be hormonal, imbalanced brain chemicals, etc. The high stress levels is in itself a hormonal issue. 

You may indeed have an adverse tetanus booster reaction, Ready2. But nearly ten years have passed. Not sure if the reaction would still be felt so many years after. Do you not need to have a tetanus booster every ten years in the US? Here we do.

[Ready2Transform]

Thank you for that link, V! I will definitely be checking that out. I think I mentioned before my MLCer was also on SSRI drugs pre-BD that I suspect had an impact on this. And I agree too on the umbrella nature of "MLC". Great convo!

Anjae, I hadn't had a tetanus shot since my teens, I believe. Definitely not in my adult life until that update. I'm not a real "doctor" person (shocker there! LOL), so I usually only went for my yearly female exam through my 20s and 30s, with rarely anything else even discussed. The "eye thing" for me started around that time in 2008 or 2009 - I can't remember which year I got the shot, but those were the two years I know I had the doctor that administered it.

[kikki]

I too always wondered about vaccines.  My MLCer had a whole range of them prior to a work trip to India.  Recommended were Hepatitis A; Tetanus; Typhoid, Cholera; Diphtheria; Hepatitis B; Japanese Encephalitis; Rabies. Yellow fever.
The only thing he didn't have out of that list was Cholera.  He declined, as he'd had a terrible reaction to it prior to our travel overseas when we were in our early 20's.  He started a few months prior to the trip, as a few of them require repeat doses.
I remember feeling concerned about the volume, and it was after this trip that he really had well and truly detached.

I don't think these caused his crisis on their own, but always thought they were one of the many puzzle pieces that all reached a tipping point.

[Velika]

Kikki, I haven't read your story, but if my H had had that many vaccines, knowing what I know, I wouldn't look much further. If he was taking a malaria drug this may have further exacerbated. There are a lot of good vaccine safety advocacy groups out there, and one of their main points is that vaccines are only safety tested individually. When an adult or a baby receives multiple shots at once, there is no way to tell how he or she will react.

I don't know a lot about strokes, but it did seem to me that a silent stroke could cause different changes depending on where in the brain it occurred. If it occurs in the prefrontal lobe it could, as the above articles suggest, impact personality but not memory. My husband often reminds me of my grandfather when he had dementia, down to his eyes. Depending on how this plays out I guess I will have a better idea of what might be going on, whether he had a depression or a lasting event.

I know some people come out of what we are calling MLC, but do all, really? When I read some accounts on this board I have to think that the person as their loved ones knew him/her is unlikely to return. This is very sad but I've had to think that I may just never know what happened to my husband.

R2T, which SSRI was your H taking? Mine is on Paxil, which contains known neurotoxin fluoride. His sister also had a MLC after having an atypical reaction to an SSRI. I don't think my H should have been prescribed for that reason, because his sister was later diagnosed possible bipolar. SSRIs can trigger this and I suspect my H may have been manic or hypomanic at bomb drop. However like many people, he received the prescription off label by a general practitioner, not a psychiatrist. He likes the calm feeling it gives him and won't visit a psychiatrist with me. As soon as he started taking it he began to get migraines for the first time. Migraines can also increase stroke risk.

I wish we knew more.

[a]

Hello

Wow, ADD/ADHD, vaccines, hormonal imbalances - the lengths we go to, to find an explanation or justify a MLCer’s behaviour.  We are far, far more than our chemical make up – in fact epigenetics shows that our thoughts may very well determine/alter the expression of a gene and therefore the production of hormones.  So really a MLCers behavior is tied into his unconscious belief system some of which he may be consciously aware of, but I think like all human being including us, the LBS, most of our background thinking that we identify with is unconscious.

We have all been in a place where we react emotionally before we think but always in retrospect we know that we behaved in a way that fills us with guilt and possibly remorse.  Yes our hormones can sometimes get the best of us but really our hormones would never push us to behave against our unconscious beliefs, our own sense of right or wrong.   At the end of the day no mental anomaly other than a socio and/or psychopath would ever lead you to murder.  While this is an extreme example it is being used to illustrate a point which is no hormonal or other mental disturbance that is experienced during a MLC would ever make you do something that you would not have done anyway. 

I think as an LBS we are often in denial about a lot of things, we don’t want to accept that our Ex is capable of some of the things they have done and so we try to use logic to explain it – it makes us feel better that the person we married is who we thought they were – to admit that we may never have truly known this person seems so wasteful and it taints our memory of the moments we shared.
 
When I met my ex he was the OM in a one night stand.  He also didn’t think the fact that his girlfriend who cheated on him with his brother was a terrible person for having done this to him, he still admired her ambitious nature – doesn’t matter that by the age of 21 she had been engaged 5 times to 5 different men – when I met her she was dismissive and very rude to me – at the time I was a shy so I didn’t react to her rudeness – I did not want  a confrontation but I remember thinking at the time that she was a self-centred know-it-all.  Back then when I was being presented with some real warning signs I dismissed them and excused that he was going through early adulthood, trying to experiment as he tried to find his identity. 

In retrospect (pity that’s when you see things 20/20) I realise that I would never have done what he did – I know I would never, ever (I can say this with utmost certainty) have an affair – simply because I have more respect for myself, plus I had a solid moral upbringing built on empathy and compassion, in spite of a low sense of self-worth that stems from childhood issues that were then compounded by ex’s affair. 

My ex was always capable of betrayal I just chose not to see that. Bearing in mind that while ex has married OW he was cheating on her during their “in-love” phase.  So how much he loved her raises a big question mark.  Having said this I do not believe he ever loved me either, he loved what I brought to his life. 

Bottom line we have to accept what is and not try to always find some kind of explanation – the truth is there is no explanation for unkind and deceitful behavior other than the person was always capable of behaving in this way not because of some chemical imbalance but because of their unconscious belief system (to them affairs, betrayal are to a certain extend acceptable) and thought patterns and therefore in their inability to be compassionate and empathetic - we just did not see it because our love was blind.

I know this may sound harsh and please this is not my intention – its just that what I would like for all of you is that you move on to a place of acceptance that you invested yourself in someone who was not capable of doing the same for you – there is no real explanation or reason for it, it just is.  I truly hope you can all move on with your lives in peace and joy.

moment

[Ready2Transform]

At the end of the day no mental anomaly other than a socio and/or psychopath would ever lead you to murder.  While this is an extreme example it is being used to illustrate a point which is no hormonal or other mental disturbance that is experienced during a MLC would ever make you do something that you would not have done anyway. 

This is false. Bipolar mania, dissociate fugue, and schizophrenia are just a few mental disturbance examples that have nothing to do with choice. I'm sure the parent of a child with ADD would argue that they're not just trying to justify their child's behavior as they look for the best treatment, so their child can function and have a good life.

I know this may sound harsh and please this is not my intention – its just that what I would like for all of you is that you move on to a place of acceptance that you invested yourself in someone who was not capable of doing the same for you – there is no real explanation or reason for it, it just is.  I truly hope you can all move on with your lives in peace and joy.

My BD was almost 5 years ago and I have a great deal of peace and joy in my life. Acceptance? You bet. But I saw a 180 flip that was deeply out of character (and he and his psychiatrist agreed, which was why he was in treatment). We all come here with very similar situations at the onset of BD, but we didn't all get there the same way. I'm sorry your H was not the man you'd believed him to be. Mine was my best friend, who knew something was 'wrong' and voiced that, sought treatment, struggled...and I'm the type that cares greatly for why this happened to him. THAT also gives me peace (as I'm assuming RCR was as well, since she didn't take his words at face value, did the research, and created this wonderful site that has benefited us all so much). I'm glad you've found your own way to acceptance. The rest of us have as well, and our thread here is clearly marked, so if you disagree, maybe just let us be? No harm meant, but certainly, I think we all get enough of the "move on" stuff, don't you?

[Ready2Transform]

R2T, which SSRI was your H taking? Mine is on Paxil, which contains known neurotoxin fluoride. His sister also had a MLC after having an atypical reaction to an SSRI. I don't think my H should have been prescribed for that reason, because his sister was later diagnosed possible bipolar. SSRIs can trigger this and I suspect my H may have been manic or hypomanic at bomb drop. However like many people, he received the prescription off label by a general practitioner, not a psychiatrist. He likes the calm feeling it gives him and won't visit a psychiatrist with me. As soon as he started taking it he began to get migraines for the first time. Migraines can also increase stroke risk.

Nodding. This is exactly what I've been told by the professionals I've spoken to since my H left. He was initially prescribed Seroquel XR, which is an antipsychotic, but the psych changed him to I believe Celexa first, then Lexapro (there may have been another in there as well). He was NOT given a mood stabilizer at the same time, which I'm told would have at least mitigated some of his problems, but it's still likely if he is bipolar that any of these would have triggered mania. He then went off of them cold turkey, which his psych begged him not to do - told him that he would help him taper if he was really set on doing it. But by that time he was making rash decisions, and I of course had no clue what the long term ramifications could be. I just thought the drugs made him sick (he had a ton of physical symptoms as well) so it was better that he not be on them, and I supported his decision. I just didn't know (which is another reason this research gives me peace now).

[kikki]

Moment, I'm not trying to be flippant, but if my MLCer had been the OM in a one night stand when I met him, I wouldn't have been all that surprised at BD either.

As it was, my MLCer's behaviours were so outrageously out of character, I thought he had a brain tumour. My boys and I have lived through far more than abandonment and an affair.

[Hmmm]

Mine has told me he is wired wrong. Works and sleeps and is barely alive.

He was not like this when I married him and did not choose this way to be.

I believe it was stress which depleted his serotonin and led to depression. Stress raises cortisol and lowers testosterone and oxytocin hence no attraction or connection despite 18 years of the complete opposite.
Xxx

[a]

Hi R2T

I certainly was not trying to minimise psychological disorders that have existed for most of a person's lifetime and that these disorders may  determine what their actions/behaviours - i just used socio/psychopath as the two most obvious ones.  I was simply trying to say that things like ADD or ADHD or schizophrenia or reactions to vaccines do not suddenly manifest in MLC, for the most part, and therefore do not necessarily explain why the MLCer behaves in the way he does - his reasons for doing what he does may truly just be his unconscious belief system.

This is not to say that the MLC is not accompanied by depression but how they choose to behave can stem from an unconscious belief system and therefore what they find acceptable.  My ex did not judge his ex-girlfriend for her cheating as much as i did - at the time i found this so admirable - now i realise that he was quite accepting of this because he did not find this to be wrong for himself either.  We all have our own barometer for what is right and what is wrong and to the MLCer maybe a do -over is not seen as the "BAD/WRONG" thing we as the LBS see it as.  We all have our own level of what is acceptable.

 I know of several people who have suffered chronic depression but have never chosen to act out in the way a MLCer chooses to act out.  And sometimes i think to try explain a MLCers behaviour via disorders like ADD and ADHD etc minimises a person suffering  who truly has these conditions.  All i was trying to say is that sometimes and certainly not in all cases, a MLC is just a man bored with his marriage seeking a do -over. nothing more nothing less and when we are bored and dissatisfied - we act out in ways that seem to indicate a psychological issue because their behaviour is so contrary to the person they have appeared to have been.  Please understand that this is not said to minimise that some MLCers may suffer psychological condition however these conditions would have been present prior to their MLC and not suddenly appear in MLC.  I just think that sometimes we make MLC into more than it actually is because we need to believe it - not because that is actually what is going on.

anyway just my two cents - whatever i say is never said to offend but maybe just to express a different perspective and a simpler one - sometimes people will behave in a terrible way when they want out and don't have the courage to say as much and when a marriage breaks down there is a lot of pain and hurt that leads us to try find answers as to why this happened but maybe there are no answers - it is what it is - that's all i was trying to say.

be well
moment