Author Topic: Discussion Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing  (Read 18232 times)

Offline OldPilotTopic starterTopic starter

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Discussion Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« on: November 04, 2015, 12:25:51 PM »
We have been having a discussion on the mod board about divorce/separation and Standing.

This excellent post by R2T - I will bring out here.

Stayed also has some great points but I will let her make them herself.

Thanks R2T - I hope you have no objection to me putting this here.

I want to say that we should develop a bit of a financial checklist. Of course, all situations will be unique, but certainly there must be at least 5 questions we all asked ourselves (or wish we had) before starting the process of financial protection.

Is my spouse contributing to mortgage/rent willingly?
Is my spouse contributing to the support of the children willingly?
Do I have transportation?
Has my ability to provide basic needs like food/utilities/school expenses for the kids changed?
Do I have my own bank account, or am I totally dependent on a joint account that I could lose access to?
Do I have my own means of taking care of phone/insurance should those suddenly be revoked?
Is my spouse accruing debts that are also my legal responsibility but not to my benefit?
What's my career status and what needs to happen to earn a wage that would cover all of this?
What's my base level monthly incoming/outgoing, with and without my spouse?

Maybe if we established something like this and encouraged them to know the answers to these questions (maybe there are friends and family that could help with some aspects, or they could start moving in the direction of getting some schooling), that would be at least a temporary answer that could keep papers from being filed.

Offline Hmmm

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2015, 12:42:51 PM »
My husband is still contributing to most of the things he always did but he is using credit cards (in his name only). Do any of you know if I would be responsible for this debt if he lost his job or died or something?
Thanks
X

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 02:58:50 PM »
Hmmm.

I don't THINK so.  If you are not named on the credit card I don't think you have any responsibility for it.

Old Pilot,

The best thing I ever did was make a budget of what my expenses would be without him.
I spent a lot of time on it because you need to add everything, even misc. items like shampoo and dog food.

Some things I had to estimate, like rent, because I still lived in the house.
But once you start putting it down on paper it's a little scary.  You need more than you think you do and it involves more than you know off the top of your head.

One list was my expenses, one list was showing his income and mine. Then I even made a list of his expenses, which I knew because I lived there.
It all helps to put things in perspective for your lawyer.  It's a starting point.

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2015, 03:02:56 PM »
No problem with it at all, OP!

Hmmmm, you need to consult with someone who understands the laws in your jurisdiction. In my state. Any marital debt, in either person or both parties' names, is jointly owed.

I edit this to add, though, that also in my state, if you are ordered by your divorce decree to pay said debt that is in your spouse's name, that doesn't mean any creditors will pursue YOU for the debt - they will still just pursue the person whose name it is in. They are not governed by a divorce decree. This is of benefit, I guess, if the debt is in your spouse's name. It is not to your benefit, as in my case, where debts were jointly accrued in just my name, and now my spouse avoids paying them.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:04:56 PM by Ready2Transform »
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Head.Held.High

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2015, 03:24:20 PM »
I bought myself some lovely items with my H's credit cards, then I promptly removed myself as a authorized user on them.  His debt, not mine.  I live in Texas.  My credit score is WAY up and his is well...way low..  Not my problem.  As he finds out and texts or calls me on them, I tell him, act like it's a diamond engagement ring and pay it.  (He bought OW a $5000 diamond ring last June while my Mom lay dying in our home).  I don't feel guilty at all.  After all, he told me to get what I needed.

As for the joint bills, if he keeps the item, I'm demanding he refinance it.  I will not waiver on this issue either, I've been burnt before.

Protect yourself.

If he should die, I would simply put deceased on envelope and return to sender.  Who's credit will it screw up?  Not mine if I'm not on the account.

My H has only given me $1000 since September 1st.  I do collect rent on our rental houses so I'm in good shape overall.  That money used to go into a retirement account.  Just with everything else, it has to be adjusted and modified.



08/12 - Discovered EA
09/12 - H Moved Out and back at least four times since.
07/14 - EA moved to PA - found a letter from OW
08/14 - H Filed for D
12/14 - H dropped his D proceedings - Mine still active
09/15 - Back to Lawyers for D to continue
02/16 - I moved out of his home
03/16  - OW moved in his home
11/16 - He kicked OW out and begged me to come home.  Tried "dating" again.
03/16 - Told him I would not move back in.
03/16 - OW back (2 days after I told him)

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2015, 03:31:28 PM »
Ready, I agree checking with a lawyer is the way to go but I think unless you are on the contract it is not legally binding.
How can you be responsible for debt you did sign for??

If my H bought a car on his own, I gave no legal responsibility for it.  Just because we were married doesn't mean they can come after me for his debt.  What legal obligation do I have for it in a court of law?  The car would not be considered joint, marital property.
He bought it.  I had nothing to do with it.  ??
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2015, 03:53:34 PM »
I understand your logic behind it, Thunder, and I did not make this law. In the state of Kansas, any debt accrued during the marriage is joint debt unless it is some sort of business debt protected by incorporation. If your spouse buys a car, and it's just in their name, it is a joint asset and debt in the eyes of the Kansas court. I have seen this in action not just with my own divorce, but my father's two divorces as well. It is why my xH's new wife will likely have to sign a quit claim deed on my home - since it is his asset, if THEY divorce, she may be able to name it as a joint asset and have claim to it.

Not going to say it's not screwed up, but it's the law. Never assume, always double check! And no, I will never again carry someone else's debt in my name. Any reconciliation, which is not even in my mind, would be without a legal marriage.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Split open and melt

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2015, 05:21:35 PM »
In my state, credit card debt incurred during the marriage is considered shared marital debt regardless of who's name the card is in. I know this because it was brought up by our mediators. I waived her responsibility for my credit card debt though even though she wanted the divorce and would have been obligated to split it. Not worth fighting over and it was my debt not hers.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 11:58:42 PM by Split open and melt »
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Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2015, 10:52:33 PM »
OP, not sure whether you are looking for feedback overall or not. So just in case....

One of the things I would add to the discussion is that I specifically sought out, and found, the HS main site and the forum because I was searching for information as someone who didn't want a divorce. I appreciate then, and still do, that this site identified itself as a resource for standers -- that it was *not* a divorce site and there were lots of *other* resources available on the internet regarding separation and divorce.

There are so many social and information influences that encourage LBSs to "just move on". There's a subtle & not so subtle pressure toward divorce that adds to the burden of self-doubt for standers such as myself who already have to dig deep to try and understand what has happened to their marriage, to try and maintain love for their spouse, and maintain confidence in their stand.

Divorce sites are plentiful. HS is rare.

Knowledge regarding how to protect oneself in response to a spouse's push for separation and/or divorce is helpful, and a checklist might be wise. And as RCR noted a while ago, a community does evolve over time.

Still, for what it's worth, I think it would be a loss to those folks who are looking for support in standing for their marriages if the momentum of the forum shifted toward preparation for divorce rather than strength for a lonely stand.   
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 10:54:06 PM by Onward »
"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline calamity

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2015, 11:01:23 PM »
Quote
Still, for what it's worth, I think it would be a loss to those folks who are looking for support in standing for their marriages if the momentum of the forum shifted toward preparation for divorce rather than strength for a lonely stand.

I agree. I hope this doesn't happen.  But.  You know when we say 'put the oxygen mask on yourself first'?  Securing your finances is part of this.  Mlc lasts a long time & we have to at least think about the worst case scenario.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 11:02:50 PM by calamity »

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2015, 11:26:35 PM »
I think there are a lot of financial considerations here that would help someone who is not ready to or never will pursue any sort of legal separation. For some, the spouse will leave the home and this will be the first time in their lives they've lived alone, managed bill pay alone, etc, so they may need a starting point in becoming financially independent during this time. And of course, many of us are forced into being defendants in divorces we did not want. It still helps to know where we are and what we can live with.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Split open and melt

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 11:53:32 PM »
OP, not sure whether you are looking for feedback overall or not. So just in case....

One of the things I would add to the discussion is that I specifically sought out, and found, the HS main site and the forum because I was searching for information as someone who didn't want a divorce. I appreciate then, and still do, that this site identified itself as a resource for standers -- that it was *not* a divorce site and there were lots of *other* resources available on the internet regarding separation and divorce.

There are so many social and information influences that encourage LBSs to "just move on". There's a subtle & not so subtle pressure toward divorce that adds to the burden of self-doubt for standers such as myself who already have to dig deep to try and understand what has happened to their marriage, to try and maintain love for their spouse, and maintain confidence in their stand.

Divorce sites are plentiful. HS is rare.

Knowledge regarding how to protect oneself in response to a spouse's push for separation and/or divorce is helpful, and a checklist might be wise. And as RCR noted a while ago, a community does evolve over time.

Still, for what it's worth, I think it would be a loss to those folks who are looking for support in standing for their marriages if the momentum of the forum shifted toward preparation for divorce rather than strength for a lonely stand.

I agree with your sentiment here completely Onward. Not really speaking for anyone but myself here, but I think that you might perhaps be misinterpreting the intentions of OldPilot and the mentor team in working on a checklist for protecting ones finances. This is not a "preparation for divorce" checklist. It's a "prepare to stand and not lose your ass and end up on the street" checklist.

As long as I have been a part of HS (not that long relatively), I have read advice on protecting your finances related over and over to newcomers. This bit about finances seemed like maybe it was one that might be worth making sticky at the top of the board.

I think OPs intent here was just to start a discussion and work collaboratively in creating a compreshensive list to help support Standers. Of course all opinions are welcome, including "please don't sticky post that list." Yet sticky or not, these bullet points are reiterated daily here to newcomers. But I personally haven't seen the goal of any of the mentors here shift from the original mission statement of The Hero's Spouse.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 12:01:48 AM by Split open and melt »
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Together- 15yrs /  Married-11yrs
Two Daughters 5 + 6
BD 10/25/13
Divorced as of 4/1/14

Offline Hmmm

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 12:14:54 AM »
I was warned to protect mine and said at the time 'I don't know how'

I'm assuming the debt is since we separated. I don't want to divorce and I know he is mentally ill and suicidal.
Xx

Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2015, 12:38:28 AM »
Hi, Split. To clarify, I don't think I'm misinterpreting the moderators' intent, and did say that I think knowledge on how to protect oneself is helpful, and a checklist might be wise. I'm not suggesting the information isn't valuable, or necessary.

I was only raising a caution on momentum. The accumulation of subtle shifts adds up.

My perception/observation, and I speak only for myself, is that there has been a shift in tone on many of the threads toward more discussion of divorce and preparing for divorce. That's not a criticism, because I deeply appreciate the moderators and mentors on this board and think everyone does laudable work.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 12:51:50 AM by Onward »
"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline OldPilotTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2015, 12:54:14 AM »
Onward

I think that maybe you are confusing legal divorce and emotional divorce.

I think split gave you a good response, I appreciate your POV and I have no intention of changing the mission of the Hero's Spouse.

However knowledge is Power and sometimes legal divorce is unavoidable.
My intention is to help LBS's become the best they can be.
I have met my share of bitter divorced people and that is not a good outcome.

Thanks for your input.

Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2015, 01:18:42 AM »
First, I want to iterate again that I appreciate the work of all of the folks on HS.

I've clearly said that I agree the knowledge would be helpful, and a checklist wise.

Why am I being told I "misunderstand" (I don't), or I'm "confused" (I'm not) when all I've done is flag that shifts in direction can be subtle, and HS would lose something important if that were the case? How does labelling me encourage discussion? Can't input for consideration, on a discussion thread, be taken as exactly and only that?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 01:36:26 AM by Onward »
"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline Lost

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2015, 01:41:13 AM »
In some countries it is also possible to completely split finances but stay married. This seems to me now the best solution for LBS who need to get financial protection very soon after BD (where they also might still profit from guilt generosity and empathy of the MLCler), without starting any D discussions.

2 months after BD we went three times together to MC and the MC knew nothing about MLC and quickly really pushed us to divorce, recommending us even a lawyer. Nobody in RL and none of the sites I had found then recommended anything else than D to me, and I was completly cycling myself, did not really know anything on standing.

So we drew up a divorce including child visitation and  child support a 1 hour seession with a lawyer and we could have been divorced 3 months later.... Except the only very simple paper left to hand in, H never handed in... We are now over 3 years later and still not Ded, typical MLC. However, H pays no child support and theoretically could ask half my assets one day (though he might not get that through since I have the signed D proposal from 3 years ago). Luckily I have a passionate job paying me more I ever thought and can support me and our 3 children on my own. The uncertainty (of him wanting one day half of my savings) does sometimes bother me but I stop any thoughts about that when they arise.

However, I wish I would have three years ago known about standing AND protectiong finances and pushed for a financial separation (it is kind of just making a new mariage contract), I think that would have suited H fine also. It would have protected my savings from him, especially in case something would happen to me, conjointly with a testament it could go completely to our children only, and that would have allowed me to buy a home/get a credit in my name only. Of course it would not have included anything on child support. Now I do not want to mention it again, in case that might make him want to D...

Anyway, not sure that is possible in all countries.

Offline LisaLives

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2015, 04:05:50 AM »

I understand Onward's concerns, having been around this Forum for a LONG time, the original true standers talked about being an obstacle to divorce, this conversation would NOT have been allowed.  As I was never a true stander, I was usually the one in trouble for causing those subtle shifts she is talking about.  And I always struggled with saying truths that were outside standing, and giving what I thought was good advice.  Perhaps it is time to split the forum topics and note topics that may not be something a stander would want to read... 

And on that note, I always feel like it would be irresponsible for me not to caution that a lot of people leave this forum just before or during divorce, but most MLC divorces are not pretty.  I truly believe that the BEST thing a stander could do is get a quick legal divorce and then continue standing.  There is a window when the MLCer is still really confused, so in love with the OP and monster has not fully emerged where the LBS is likely to get a good and easy settlement.  When the OP gets her hooks in and the MLCer starts to see cracks in the vision, and of course blames them on the LBS, that window closes and Ds are likely to get VERY confrontational.  I am so lucky I D'd early, as those judgments are hard to overturn.  When his vision started to get "off" and he took me back to court, twice, he never stood a chance, but if I had waited, I would have lost a lot, and so would my kids, a custody fight is never pretty. 

So think about the true meaning of standing--is it protecting your legal M at all costs, even if it means being an obstacle to divorce and dragging your kids through an ugly custody battle and fighting over stupid stuff you don't really want, but won't lose, for pride and ego, or is it protecting your real commitment to love, honor and cherish...  If you believe that legal paper is what is holding you together, then you better ask yourself why you are really standing...  But if you believe your spouse is dis-eased and going through a rough time and what they want is a D, why NOT comply, tell them you love them and it is not what you want, on the day the decree is granted, give them a letter and token of your undying love and tell them that you wish them the best...  Which is truly the more peaceful, understanding route?  Just a thought, love and light, ll
 
The best thing about banging your head against the wall for so long is that it feels so good when you finally stop...

BD 1/16/10
D Final 7/21/11
exH married OW the next week and moved across the country to be with her... 

LL CHOSE to live happily ever after...

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2015, 06:00:22 AM »
I'm a bit confused.

I think this site is for standers but you have to be realistic.  Divorces do happen and a person has to be prepared for that.  A lot of people come on this forum not thinking about the possible financial mess they may find themselves in.

To me a stander is someone who does not initiate a D, does no work on it and stands for their marriage...or relationship.  Loves their spouse and tries everything in their power to wait it out.  But gets legal advice to protect themselves.

If the spouse does divorce them they can still stand.  Many do.

Am I missing something here?

LisaLives, why would this type of conversation not be allowed??
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Searching4Answers

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2015, 07:49:09 AM »
I have always looked at the financial side of this like I do the emotional side.

In my opinion, we have to detach from the MLCer for many reasons - one being to protect our love for them from their destruction. Detachment doesn't mean that we stop loving them it just means that we put it in a box and when/if the MLCer returns our love hasn't been destroyed. Detaching is the most lovingly thing that we can do.

I see figuring out the financial side very much the same way. The MLCer's are known for spending and not making good decision. I see protecting your finances similar to protecting your love. Again, when/if the MLCer returns they have something to return to - everything hasn't been destroyed.

It is like you are protecting everyone's future - yours, your children's and the MLCer's.

We all do damage. Character is determined by how we repair it.


BD - December 2012
OW1 confirmed - December 2012 on-and-off for 34 months and counting (still refers to her as just a 'friend')
Wants to live like roommates - November 2013
I moved out - April 2015
H is still checking the anchor

Offline Airmid

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2015, 11:05:54 AM »
Honestly there is a lot to consider with this topic.

Property

When was the property acquired?

1) Before the marriage? - then the property is yours but your spouse can make a claim for capital improvements, ongoing mortgage payments, other expenses if the Spouse can show the money was paid for with joint marital funds. So if your spouse is still making some sort of contribution towards the upkeep of "your" house - beware.  If however you can show that the property is maintained solely by funds outside of joint marital assets (inherited monies for instance) - then you are safe from Spouse making a claim against the property.

2) After the marriage?  Then the property is joint.  If you spouse is still paying mortgage etc - this may be in your favor. But if the divorce will result in you needing to sell your home and split the proceeds - again you must consider the ramifications of this.

Retirement Assets.


Payments made to a 401K or other such fund are considered joint assets after 10 years of marriage.  Married 9 years?  You may want to drag things out to secure the funds.

Likewise you are entitled to your spouses social security after 10 years of marriage.

Child support

Do you have children and is the spouse currently paying more of their share towards the children's support?  Excellent - document this as it will be handy later should you need to go to court later.  If that is the case - you may want hold off a divorce.  If however you are not being properly funded and your Spouse has no intentions of paying their share - then securing the funds via a divorce may be more prudent.

How is the Spouse behaving with regard to finances?


Is the Spouse buying MLC sports cars and emptying your bank account?
That's a concern that can be stopped via legal means.

If the spouse is a low level wallower and not really doing anything - then you can keep an eye on things and wait.

Health Insurance

Is your Spouse providing you with health insurance under their employee benefits plan?
Do you have access to your own health insurance?
Health insurance is pretty darn expensive these days - this is another consideration.

Your credit


In many states debt is considered joint - no matter who has the credit card, loan etc.
Is your spouse running up the credit card bills?  Are you?
What about your credit rating?
Are you filing jointly on taxes - if so this can expose you to more financial liability with the tax agencies.

The bottom line is - it would be nice to have a list of questions to consider before you discuss legal issues with your attorney - but I think it is imperative to go right away to a divorce attorney and find out  where you stand legally in your own particular state.

Finally - draw yourself up a reasonable budget before all hell breaks loose.
If you need to move out to the marital home - what will that cost you - assuming the home does not sell right away.  How much child support do you need?  What about your health insurance, home insurance etc.

If you have been a person who relied upon the Spouse to handle the finances - you need to wake up and smell the coffee - its your responsibility to figure these things out on paper - even before you talk to a legal advisor or your Spouse.




Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2015, 01:41:49 PM »
Airmid - such amazing points!

Quote
Again, when/if the MLCer returns they have something to return to - everything hasn't been destroyed.

This was my reasoning behind why I fought so hard to cure the financial ills he left behind on my own without pushing - I didn't feel he was capable of owning his part at that point, but that was me trying to control the situation and not accept it. Instead he took the money he saved not paying for his responsibilities, and dug a deeper hole. It didn't cure what was left behind and created a bigger cavern! I was very emotionally attached to keeping "connections" in place that will likely have to be fixed in more dramatic, damaging ways now. And still he is in replay. I would be less likely to want him back now because of his NEW financial problems, which paying his share of the original things might have saved him from having.

I'm a bit confused.

I think this site is for standers but you have to be realistic.  Divorces do happen and a person has to be prepared for that.  A lot of people come on this forum not thinking about the possible financial mess they may find themselves in.

To me a stander is someone who does not initiate a D, does no work on it and stands for their marriage...or relationship.  Loves their spouse and tries everything in their power to wait it out.  But gets legal advice to protect themselves.

If the spouse does divorce them they can still stand.  Many do.

Am I missing something here?

LisaLives, why would this type of conversation not be allowed??

I don't think you're missing anything. :) Sometimes though, legal advice may include having to take legal action, if it comes to that. We should all know where that boundary lays. I think that's the best reason for this "true north" seeking.

When I came here in 2012 there was very little divorce going on, but there were also far less LBSs here. It really has been in just the last year or two that open discussion about divorce has happened. Even the word itself is used instead of the dreaded "D" that would only occasionally appear.

Of course it's not what any of us wanted, but at the end of the day, we have to care more about our own relationships with a higher power if we have one and how that defines what is right for us, and our individual situations and futures, versus following a program, trusting a psychological process as we interpret it to be, or keeping a forum full of strangers on or off of a difficult topic.

And that's not to depersonalize any of you because it is amazing that you are here and are seeking ways to survive this nightmare (and kicking a lot of ass doing it because you are still HERE and thriving!), but if you don't agree, just don't read the thread. It's really that simple. If enough people find it unnecessary they won't comment on it, and it will get buried pages back, thus eliminating a thread that doesn't fit the core needs of the HS family. Just my .02.

"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2015, 02:53:16 PM »
Airmid *has* made great points - about divorce in her jurisdiction, as she understands it.

Family (divorce) law is different in mine. If I followed her 'great points', it would be damaging to me where I am.

Honestly, there are so many nuances to family law in all of the different points on the globe represented by members here on HS.

Providing a list of things to check, if one finds themselves needing to prepare for a possible divorce, makes sense.

Anything else? Information could actually be misleading. There's a reason why divorce law is a specialty feeding a lot of lawyers  :P.

R2T, you're actually supporting the point I was trying to make - momentum shifts when you start to focus on a particular topic. When the focus starts to be on "D", advice starts to be framed from the point of  divorce.

Yes, divorce happens. Yes, members need to be prepared. Yes, maybe it would be helpful to have such a list on the resources page.

Can we just acknowledge that when there is a lot of talk of how to prepare for divorce, it plants different seeds than a lot of talk of how to stand?

No criticism of LL, but there's some sad irony to this on a forum for standers:
Perhaps it is time to split the forum topics and note topics that may not be something a stander would want to read... 

I read far more than I post. I suspect I'm not the only one. I see the full range of conversations on the board. This is the place I come for support, and when I can, to give support in a small community that "gets it". That understands my spouse is in MLC (I think) and I don't want a divorce.
That says:
You're not crazy for wanting to restore your marriage.
You're not crazy for continuing to love a man who's behaviour is hurtful and hard to understand.
Yes, you can keep going.
No, you don't have to engage the legal process just because it's been 16 months, and nothing's happening.
Yes, you do have to look at where and how you need to change yourself.
Yes, it is normal to still think of your spouse with love everyday.
Yes, it is normal to still feel some sadness one, two, five, ten years along.
Yes, it is noble to stand for your marriage.
Yes, you can be committed, and feel the hurt without being a doormat.
No you don't have to 'move on', and furthermore there's nothing wrong with you if you don't want to 'move on'.

I've read the family law act in my jurisdiction. I've read legal blogs from my jurisdiction. I have a lawyer. I have a mediator. I have a draft separation agreement I haven't signed. I expect any day I may be served. Or not. I'm certainly not *afraid* of the D word, nor do I need to be protected from the D word. Quite frankly, most days I think "D" would be a whole lot easier than standing *especially* now that the drama is done and time has dragged on. .

As you can probably tell  ::), I think there are enough people telling me what to do to prepare for divorce, and precious few who help me stand.

I suspect there was a sophisticated psychological reason the HS forums didn't focus on divorce.
Talk of divorce makes me feel really, really alone. It makes me doubt my stand.
And I bet I'm not the only one.






"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2015, 03:50:38 PM »
Onward-As you can probably tell  ::), I think there are enough people telling me what to do to prepare for divorce, and precious few who help me stand.

Oh Onward I hope that is not the case.
I truly think standing for your marriage is so important and so hard to do.  We do need to support all those who are standing.
It's not for the faint of heart.  It takes courage and a lot of patience, understanding. love and forgiveness.

We face people every day who tell us we need to move on.  So hard to hear because, even though they care about us, they do not understand MLC.

I have the highest respect for standers.

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline xyzcf

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2015, 04:10:01 PM »
Onward stated:

Quote
This is the place I come for support, and when I can, to give support in a small community that "gets it". That understands my spouse is in MLC (I think) and I don't want a divorce.
That says:
You're not crazy for wanting to restore your marriage.
You're not crazy for continuing to love a man who's behaviour is hurtful and hard to understand.
Yes, you can keep going.
No, you don't have to engage the legal process just because it's been 16 months, and nothing's happening.
Yes, you do have to look at where and how you need to change yourself.
Yes, it is normal to still think of your spouse with love everyday.
Yes, it is normal to still feel some sadness one, two, five, ten years along.
Yes, it is noble to stand for your marriage.
Yes, you can be committed, and feel the hurt without being a doormat.
No you don't have to 'move on', and furthermore there's nothing wrong with you if you don't want to 'move on'.

I agree totally with what Onward has written. I do not feel supported on HS as a stander. There is a small group that gets that MLC is real and that standing is possible and desirable. It is also very very hard and very very lonely.

Sorry folks but I see standers way outnumbered on HS and thus, there is almost an "underground" of people who communicate not on the threads but privately because it just too hard to defend their belief in MLC.

LisaLives wrote:
Quote
I understand Onward's concerns, having been around this Forum for a LONG time, the original true standers talked about being an obstacle to divorce, this conversation would NOT have been allowed.

I have been a member since July 2010 and I have NEVER seen that any conversation was not allowed.

and this:
Quote
Perhaps it is time to split the forum topics and note topics that may not be something a stander would want to read... 

I had a double take when I read this. Sorry, it just hit me the wrong way.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2015, 04:31:08 PM »
Quote
I've read the family law act in my jurisdiction. I've read legal blogs from my jurisdiction. I have a lawyer. I have a mediator. I have a draft separation agreement I haven't signed. I expect any day I may be served. Or not. I'm certainly not *afraid* of the D word, nor do I need to be protected from the D word. Quite frankly, most days I think "D" would be a whole lot easier than standing *especially* now that the drama is done and time has dragged on. .

And this is what we're encouraging (though again, all of these questions are things STANDERS need to answer, because standing is uncertain and possibly expensive!). If we can help people find some sort of footing amid the uncertainty, it will alleviate some of the emotional pain that is coming from the years of asking, "What would I do if a or b happens?!". They will be prepared, and then they can exhale. It wards off all of the naysayers who are trying to tell you to file, to do this, to do that, when you can say, "Nope - I got this."

I am 52 months deep into this nightmare, and I have been a stander for most of that, even through divorce. I STILL want to see him come out of this whole and healthy and I frame my interactions with him to not build any more resentment or blockage to MLC progression. I learned that from the amazing people here. THANK YOU! But I think there are two issues here that need not be mutually exclusive, which are making sure your situation is stable so you can focus on emotional healing post-BD, and choosing to stand for your marriage. TOUGH decisions, absolutely. But I don't think choosing to ignore one will make the other more fruitful. I *did* believe mine wouldn't file and since I had good money coming in, I didn't prepare for the rain that came. I will encourage others to not do that because I know first hand how devastating that can be.

And no, I don't believe being realistic and discussing many of the things that we're forced into is what caused a rise in people getting divorced or choosing not to stand on the forum. I still see most divorces here initiated by the MLCer, as mine was. There are just many more people here now, from varying beliefs and situations. Everyone has to decide for themselves whether standing is right for them. If something that major can be so easily swayed in either direction by an anonymous internet forum, then the person was probably not that committed to standing anyway.

"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Head.Held.High

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2015, 05:08:08 PM »
Just my 2 cents..

I am a stander for the most part.  I've been at this since 8/2012.  H moved back and forth about 8 times.  I stood.  I waited.  I cried, prayed, lost 52lbs, all the while my family (kids) and my friends couldn't understand what I was waiting for.  Well, I love this man.  With all my heart and soul.  And when I was served with divorce papers in late July last year, right after my Mom died, I still stood.  They all thought I was crazy.  Except for my best, best friend in the entire world.  She simply said, "Whatever you decide, I'm behind you".  She is my rock.

I do feel now, that I could go either way, stand or D.  It's his choice, not mine.  I do not want a divorce.  I hate the word and the meaning behind it.  But if he chooses to go there, I know I will be ok.  I only hired a lawyer because I HAD to, not because I wanted to.  When he first threw out the divorce word, he wanted me to go get one.  I interviewed several lawyers and then I said to myself, if he wants a divorce, he can do the work.  Well he initiated it and dropped it and initiated it again.  I have no other choice but to hire one to fight for what I deserve.

I thank you God everyday I found this site as it helps me tremendously.  First thing in the morning, I get my coffee and get on HS.  The last place I lurk is here.  Thank you all for being here even though we are in the crappiest boat in the sea.  It will get better, I do believe that.  Good evening friends.
08/12 - Discovered EA
09/12 - H Moved Out and back at least four times since.
07/14 - EA moved to PA - found a letter from OW
08/14 - H Filed for D
12/14 - H dropped his D proceedings - Mine still active
09/15 - Back to Lawyers for D to continue
02/16 - I moved out of his home
03/16  - OW moved in his home
11/16 - He kicked OW out and begged me to come home.  Tried "dating" again.
03/16 - Told him I would not move back in.
03/16 - OW back (2 days after I told him)

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2015, 05:16:17 AM »
Some time ago I wrote a post to Tennessee concerning things that I wished people would do prior to seeing me in reference to a possible divorce action.  Preparation type things.  Along the lines of proper preparation prevents poor performance.  Most of us were at least threatened with legal action at some point.  To me it is not a question of standing or not to be properly prepared and educated as to the legal process and our rights. 

That said, yes, I agree the forum has changed over time.  Not all the changes are things I agree with.  Principally I disagree with what I perceive to be the dilution of the message of the writings.  I came here not as a stander but as a person wishing to heal.  So I focused on that aspect.  In many ways that allowed me the space to do my work as laid out in the writings rather than focus on my ex and the question of standing etc.  I was pushed to do the hard work on myself.   The result is that not only did I heal but my ex wants to return.

Now I read over and over people taking bits and pieces of the information and loudly proclaiming "I am going to do it my way."  Followed by a close second justification of "I know my h" and the ever popular I want advice but only that which I agree with.  I want validation and support alone.  My h is special.  I don't need to do mirror work, there's nothing wrong with me.  That's navel gazing, a waste of time.  X was nice to her husband and he is still around so I'm going to do the same thing even though my h is of a totally different type.  We don't really know what works so...

All this seems to me to be a dilution of the writings and at times simple justification for not doing the hard work.  Yes it's true there are no hard and fast rules as in a board game.  And we don't know the one specific action that would bring the spouse back.  Etc.

But we do know until we are on our way to being healed, healthy, and strong there is no chance the spouse is coming back to stay.   We do know they aren't coming back to the old marriage.  We do know this process is counterintuitive.  We do know the spouse and the lbs have like issues and are on parallel paths in many ways but to different degrees. 

If you are truly going to stand for your marriage, then stand and do the work on yourself.
If you decide not to stand, then don't but still do the work on yourself.

You will never be sorry you did either way.  Its hard, it's emotional, its brutal, but it's worth it.  That is the real gift of time. 

Best LP

if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline OldPilotTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2015, 05:21:49 AM »
Some time ago I wrote a post to Tennessee concerning things that I wished people would do prior to seeing me in reference to a possible divorce action.  Preparation type things.  Along the lines of proper preparation prevents poor performance.  Most of us were at least threatened with legal action at some point.  To me it is not a question of standing or not to be properly prepared and educated as to the legal process and our rights. 

That said, yes, I agree the forum has changed over time.  Not all the changes are things I agree with.  Principally I disagree with what I perceive to be the dilution of the message of the writings.  I came here not as a stander but as a person wishing to heal.  So I focused on that aspect.  In many ways that allowed me the space to do my work as laid out in the writings rather than focus on my ex and the question of standing etc.  I was pushed to do the hard work on myself.   The result is that not only did I heal but my ex wants to return.

Now I read over and over people taking bits and pieces of the information and loudly proclaiming "I am going to do it my way."  Followed by a close second justification of "I know my h" and the ever popular I want advice but only that which I agree with.  I want validation and support alone.  My h is special.  I don't need to do mirror work, there's nothing wrong with me.  That's navel gazing, a waste of time.  X was nice to her husband and he is still around so I'm going to do the same thing even though my h is of a totally different type.  We don't really know what works so...

All this seems to me to be a dilution of the writings and at times simple justification for not doing the hard work.  Yes it's true there are no hard and fast rules as in a board game.  And we don't know the one specific action that would bring the spouse back.  Etc.

But we do know until we are on our way to being healed, healthy, and strong there is no chance the spouse is coming back to stay.   We do know they aren't coming back to the old marriage.  We do know this process is counterintuitive.  We do know the spouse and the lbs have like issues and are on parallel paths in many ways but to different degrees. 

If you are truly going to stand for your marriage, then stand and do the work on yourself.
If you decide not to stand, then don't but still do the work on yourself.

You will never be sorry you did either way.  Its hard, it's emotional, its brutal, but it's worth it.  That is the real gift of time. 

Best LP

AMEN!  - Great Post - especially the bolded part!

Oh and one more thing

STANDING is NOT STILL

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2015, 08:53:00 AM »
I just want to throw this out there.

I've heard a few people comment on how the forum has changed over the years.  I've seen it too but wonder if it's because we are seeing more and more younger MLCer's out there now.

When I joined this forum maybe 4 years ago it seemed everyone...or most..were in their 40's and 50's.  Now we are seeing quite a few in their 30's.  Most were married, now we are seeing people who never married.

Maybe that is part of the change.   People in their 30's think very differently than people in their 50's (or in my case 60's).
Maybe they are not as apt to wait it out and stand.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2015, 09:38:49 AM »
I just want to throw this out there.

I've heard a few people comment on how the forum has changed over the years.  I've seen it too but wonder if it's because we are seeing more and more younger MLCer's out there now.

When I joined this forum maybe 4 years ago it seemed everyone...or most..were in their 40's and 50's.  Now we are seeing quite a few in their 30's.  Most were married, now we are seeing people who never married.

Maybe that is part of the change.   People in their 30's think very differently than people in their 50's (or in my case 60's).
Maybe they are not as apt to wait it out and stand.

Could very well be. I was 38 when I found the forum in 2012, and was one of the younger posters, I think.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline patience.of.a.saint

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2015, 10:02:06 AM »
I've been here two years and I would say in that amount of time, this forum has changed. I think it used to be more supportive of people figuring out what worked and what didn't work for themselves....and dare I say "analyzing" things that came along? I like reading other people's analyzation...sometimes you discover things about yourself that you never knew...which leads to mirror work.

Now, you can't post without someone telling you to "go NC, leave them alone and just concentrate on you". Yes, that is a valid response in some cases, but I have learned more about myself from analyzing what makes my MLCer tick than I ever would've if I had followed the current mantra of "go NC and live like they won't be back". There are things I don't even bother posting because I get tired of hearing "go NC" when I am not asking for advice. I am not looking for validation either. It used to be that the response was a question to cause the LBS to think about things differently, not a demand to listen to the "experts" because NC is the "only" way.

Pair the NC theme here with the divorce talk and yes, in my opinion, the vibe of HS is changing.

As for posting about the legal issues, I really think the best advice to give is to talk to a lawyer.

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2015, 10:30:37 AM »
patience, I'm surely no advocate of NC, unless it is really necessary for your peace of mind.  Definitely not in the beginning.

In close to 5 years I have only gone NC for 2 weeks.  It was not working for me.  Although people told me to I knew it wasn't the best in my situation.  I listen to all advice given to me and I'm grateful for it because I know it comes from a place of caring but I also take everything with a grain of salt.

But having said that there have been times when I've read someone's thread and they just won't leave their spouse alone.  The MLCer is asking for space but their afraid to give it to them, and the situation just gets worse.

I have suggested NC in that type of situation.  Best to leave them alone so Monster doesn't get worse.
NC doesn't need to be forever.  I don't think that is a good idea for anyone.

I hope I never gave you advice about going NC when you were not asking for advice.  If I did I'm sorry.   ???
Now I have to reread your thread.  See if I slipped up.   :o
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2015, 01:09:28 PM »
LP, thanks for expressing more clearly what's underneath my own thoughts.  The HS articles advocate mirror work, healing and growth, and the focus was/is on supporting for those who are seeking support "while dealing with MLC & infidelity when they don't want a divorce".

It's reasonably safe to assume most who come here, at least initially, have hope for renewal of a healthy marriage and seek support in how to get there over what can be a long time. The first crucial advise is to detach -- which differs from NC.

Not that one should deny the possibility, or be blind to the need to  prepare for the possibility of divorce action by the spouse.

It's reassuring to see what Thunder & POAS have said about NC. I've never understood how NC helps reestablish connection. Without reconnection (paving the way), I really don't know how a couple can find their way back to each other.

Yet, I've observed a real increase in the "go NC" messaging in the year or so I've been here. And the more I see 'go NC' on threads, the more I wonder if my efforts to reconnect are "wrong". I see very little on encouraging 'paving the way'. My own observation is that 'paving the way' is almost actively discouraged. (And that is an observation, not a criticism.)

RCR writes about "planting seeds" in one of the articles. What is planted is where attention goes. She also writes about where & when to go NC, and doesn't suggest it early. Yet, NC is a seed that's been planted. It's kind of become an 'invasive species'.

Invasive species can be part of a lovely garden - but a gardener does need to keep a vigilant eye on them  :D.




 

 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 01:11:58 PM by Onward »
"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline Split open and melt

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2015, 01:47:38 PM »
Threads getting a bit derailed here but it's an interesting discussion...

As a mentor I will suggest No Contact or Dark Contact as a "tool" so to speak for helping facilitate detachment. To help end the abusive cycles of blame shifting, guilt tripping, monstering, etc that often come from the MLCer. For a new LBS it's very difficult for them not to react to that behavior in negetive ways, so I'll suggest that often it's best to say nothing at all vs trying to reason with or worse, fight back.

There is no rule book for mentors here, and we aren't professionals. We are just fellow LBSs who've made a commitment of time and energy to help newcomers to the site. We all advocate standing in most situations, otherwise we probly wouldn't still be active on this site. Although many of us have moved on in our own personal lives, myself included. We often collaborate and share ideas, but we don't always agree. People have different viewpoints that are largely based on their own personal experience.

I think we all do our best to try and evaluate each mentee's situation independently and make recommendations that will best serve their well being. It's not easy work and it's mostly thankless. I have acted as a mentor for 10 or so Men here and all have either ended up divorced pretty quickly, or just disappeared from the site altogether with no word or updates on their current status. That is always a little disappointing.

Based on what I've read over the years here, it seems Male and Female MLC stories share similarities but are often quite different, where the Female MLCer rushes straight into divorce leaving the Male LBS quickly and often trying to take his assets and parental custody rights with her. So when I see a new male show up on this board I try to help him stand but also accept that he is probly going to be divorced within 6 months and better have his act together regarding finances and his legal rights to custody. And helping them with that in any way I can, even just warning them or advising them to get ahead of it, is a top priority as a mentor.

Best,
Split
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 01:57:36 PM by Split open and melt »
Surrender to the Flow

Together- 15yrs /  Married-11yrs
Two Daughters 5 + 6
BD 10/25/13
Divorced as of 4/1/14

Offline patience.of.a.saint

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2015, 03:18:10 PM »
patience, I'm surely no advocate of NC, unless it is really necessary for your peace of mind.  Definitely not in the beginning.

In close to 5 years I have only gone NC for 2 weeks.  It was not working for me.  Although people told me to I knew it wasn't the best in my situation.  I listen to all advice given to me and I'm grateful for it because I know it comes from a place of caring but I also take everything with a grain of salt.

But having said that there have been times when I've read someone's thread and they just won't leave their spouse alone.  The MLCer is asking for space but their afraid to give it to them, and the situation just gets worse.

I have suggested NC in that type of situation.  Best to leave them alone so Monster doesn't get worse.
NC doesn't need to be forever.  I don't think that is a good idea for anyone.

I hope I never gave you advice about going NC when you were not asking for advice.  If I did I'm sorry.   ???
Now I have to reread your thread.  See if I slipped up.   :o

No worries, Thunder! I read more threads than I post on and that is the vibe I get across the board, not just my thread, and not just from moderators either. I too, will listen to advice and use what I think will work for me, but the NC theme is pretty strong some days, especially when someone has their own personal reasons for not doing it. Very rarely do we see advice that is along the lines of paving the way.

Offline OldPilotTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2015, 03:43:15 PM »
Paving the way
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/self-focus/what-is-paving-the-way/

Quote from: RCR
Paving the Way for your MLCer to come home is about loving your Self and making your Self a priority.

Offline stayed

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2015, 09:24:14 PM »
This is a financial checklist... after many years of watching LBS's suffer incredible financial loss, and emotional loss as well, we thought we should try to address this.  After a fairly healthy discussion with ALL THE MODERATORS, we decided that an OPEN DISCUSSION was the best method of delivering our concerns.

We have watched many LBSer's, both men and women, totally devastated when their MLCer filed for divorce.  Most of us LBS's truly do not expect our spouses to do that.  I know I certainly didn't.  I honestly thought he was having a "temporary mental breakdown" of sorts and that in a few months he would come to his senses.  When he didn't, I was STUNNED. 

Like most of my other fellow LBSer's I didn't protect myself financially.  I was afraid my h would somehow view this negatively and it might prevent him from ever returning.  Not to mention that I honestly thought "this thing" was temporary.  I was LUCKY!  My h did come out of his crisis, and he didn't try to cut me off from our finances.  Seriously though, from what I have seen in this forum and in others, I WAS LUCKY.  Most MLCer's squander our hard earned savings... spend it freely and lavishly on their new partner and totally forget about their family, children and all. 

Sadly it's not just the finances.  Most of us LBS\s are so convinced that we "know" our spouses so well, that they would never divorce us.  When they do, many of us are so shocked, we are barely able to cope. Many have to find jobs, some taking on up to 3 jobs in order to make ends meet, plus raise their children.  Many are getting no child support although it has often been court ruled.  care being supported by their "retired" parents.  In the mean time, the MLC parent is taking exotic vacations, buying expensive toys, cars and houses. 

NOBODY is telling anybody to NOT STAND.  In fact, we are saying the exact OPPOSITE.  We are saying STAND but protect yourself.  Financially and emotionally. 

Hugs Stayed

Married 42yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
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Offline calamity

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2015, 06:05:11 AM »
Quote
NOBODY is telling anybody to NOT STAND.  In fact, we are saying the exact OPPOSITE.  We are saying STAND but protect yourself.  Financially and emotionally.

Yes.  It never fails to amaze me that, after finding out the spouse is a cheater & a liar an lbs can convince him/herself that their spouse wouldn't cheat them financially.

But yes, get legal advice.  It may not be necessary to take any action but you have to know your rights.
 

Offline UKStander

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2015, 07:40:11 AM »
My husband is still contributing to most of the things he always did but he is using credit cards (in his name only). Do any of you know if I would be responsible for this debt if he lost his job or died or something?
Thanks
X

Hi Hmmm

I haven't really got time to read this whole thread, so this may already have been answered, but just thought I'd say the lawyer in UK who I spoke with for one hour yesterday said categorically that I would not be responsible for any debt that H ran up personally. Not at all. Only debt over shared contracts - ie if he stopped paying the mortgage, I'd be responsible for any arrears and future payments.

BD June 2011
Affair discovered; three moves out and three attempts at return during 2012, culminating in "I'm not coming back" statement. Then DIY separation agreement - Feb 14 - which I wouldn't sign. He moved in with OW in 10/14 and I heard little more. I instigated D in 2016.  He's still living in rental with OW and her D but the cracks are starting to appear.

Offline UKStander

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2015, 07:42:23 AM »

Still, for what it's worth, I think it would be a loss to those folks who are looking for support in standing for their marriages if the momentum of the forum shifted toward preparation for divorce rather than strength for a lonely stand.

HEAR HEAR!!!   Totally agree.  HS very rare.  Encourage preparation and good financial housekeeping, but beware ANY tendency towards slowly encouraging a confused and weary LBS towards closure by D, if D is not really what that LBS wants.

BD June 2011
Affair discovered; three moves out and three attempts at return during 2012, culminating in "I'm not coming back" statement. Then DIY separation agreement - Feb 14 - which I wouldn't sign. He moved in with OW in 10/14 and I heard little more. I instigated D in 2016.  He's still living in rental with OW and her D but the cracks are starting to appear.

Offline Airmid

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2015, 08:01:21 AM »
Some time ago I wrote a post to Tennessee concerning things that I wished people would do prior to seeing me in reference to a possible divorce action.  Preparation type things.  Along the lines of proper preparation prevents poor performance.  Most of us were at least threatened with legal action at some point.  To me it is not a question of standing or not to be properly prepared and educated as to the legal process and our rights. 


Can we get this post referenced here?

Offline Medusa

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2015, 08:34:34 AM »
I don't see the momentum here as shifting towards preparing for divorce. I see realism: each LBS needs to know her/his rights and protect her/himself in the event divorce occurs, and I think we do each other and ourselves a disservice by not discussing it.

As Stayed said, no one here is telling anyone to drop their stand. I doubt most of us here like the idea of divorce, but it will be the reality for some of us, and hiding our heads doesn't do any of us an iota of good.
_____________________

Married 29 years. Divorced 12/7/16.
BD March 2013
D24, S22, Canine
Moved out November 2013
Bought townhouse for him and OW December, 2014
Mediation began April, 2014, completed June, 2015; round of mediation completed August 24.
My status: done and indifferent
____________________

That's was some f*cked up sh!t! I don't ever have to do that again!

Why are you holding on to that? How is it serving you?

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Offline RainbowGal

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2015, 09:15:29 AM »
I have always looked at the financial side of this like I do the emotional side.

In my opinion, we have to detach from the MLCer for many reasons - one being to protect our love for them from their destruction. Detachment doesn't mean that we stop loving them it just means that we put it in a box and when/if the MLCer returns our love hasn't been destroyed. Detaching is the most lovingly thing that we can do.

I see figuring out the financial side very much the same way. The MLCer's are known for spending and not making good decision. I see protecting your finances similar to protecting your love. Again, when/if the MLCer returns they have something to return to - everything hasn't been destroyed.

It is like you are protecting everyone's future - yours, your children's and the MLCer's.

 Completely on board with what S4A wrote above.That was exactly my motivation for taking the steps I needed to ensure our marital assets and finances were as protected as possible(from BOTH my temporally crazed W and a predator OW) and to minimize  further damage to them.I can tell you that Pumpkin has repeatedly told me how grateful she is now that I did take those actions.Even if she had not come through her crisis,it would still have been the right thing to do and like Calamity said,it is part of "putting the oxygen mask on yourself first."

 I am surprised to read that some folks feel that this topic is not conducive to Standing.

 "Self-preservation is the first responsibility."-Margaret Anderson
Me-53
Wife-57
T-30 years
M-November,2010
3-furry four-legged loving canine kids
EA begins-Jan,2011
Mini BD-April 1,2011
EA goes PA-Sept 2011
ILYBNILWY speech-Oct 2011
PA with alienator 20 years younger confirmed-early Nov 2011
Moved in and out 8 times before getting her $h!te together.

Reconnected November 7,2012
Reconciled,2013

 And my destination makes it worth the while
Pushing through the darkness still another mile
I believe in angels
Something good in everything I see
I believe in angels
When I know the time is right for me
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Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2015, 11:17:29 AM »
I think maybe the moderators already had a lot of discussion about this topic, and came to it with a clearer understanding of the intent of the checklist.


 I am surprised to read that some folks feel that this topic is not conducive to Standing.


I don't think anyone has suggested that the topic is not conducive to standing, nor that the checklist wasn't helpful or necessary.

My original point, and what others have said is essentially 'yes, a preparation checklist makes sense, and can we please be conscious of how much emphasis starts to get placed on divorce.'

And now I think maybe I'm just being stubborn in not letting this go - back to the mirror work for me!  ;D
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 11:37:53 AM by Onward »
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Offline stayed

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2015, 12:16:21 PM »
Onward, all of the moderators are STANDERS.  Maybe not in the sense that some are, but all of us believe that UNTIL we are healed and recovered from this, we need to STAND.  To most of us, standing is not still.  As you said, it was a lot of mirror work, a willingness to look deeply within ourselves, recognize our fears and deal with.  Admit, that we were FIXER's to begin with, who jumped onto the Victim Triangle as time went on, hoping around from Persecutor/Rescuer and Victim.  Over and over and over again.  Hell, most of us realize we still do, the only difference is, we recognize when we are doing it, admit it and SOMETIMES choose to just stay there for a while.  Without a doubt there is some COMFORT in the old familiar behaviour patterns.

LBSer's from HS are all stubborn, if we weren't we would have JOINED the divorced/separation forum years ago.  Nothing wrong with being a little stubborn, just as long as we don't exercise the insanity habit, which is doing the same thing, over and over and over again... and EXPECTING a different result! 

Hugs Stayed

Married 42yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline UKStander

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2015, 03:22:10 PM »
Total agreement here with all fellow Standers.   :) :)

There is no underground movement afoot to undermine the general consensus that self-protection is a good thing. Only a fool would argue with that.

In my own experience though, full financial protection does, in fact, mean Divorce (as recently highlighted on my thread - in the UK financial separation offers little security). Obviously this presents a real dilemma. If the only full protection is offered by D, then the two aims are at loggerheads: standing is about not wanting divorce (see top of home page on this site), and full financial separation necessitates divorce (at least in UK - can't speak about elsewhere, obviously.)

I haven't yet found the answer to this dilemma.  THS remains a fabulous site! 
BD June 2011
Affair discovered; three moves out and three attempts at return during 2012, culminating in "I'm not coming back" statement. Then DIY separation agreement - Feb 14 - which I wouldn't sign. He moved in with OW in 10/14 and I heard little more. I instigated D in 2016.  He's still living in rental with OW and her D but the cracks are starting to appear.

Offline Anjae

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2015, 06:16:14 PM »
I think maybe the moderators already had a lot of discussion about this topic, and came to it with a clearer understanding of the intent of the checklist.

We've had. Stayed already answered the why of this checklist

This is a financial checklist... after many years of watching LBS's suffer incredible financial loss, and emotional loss as well, we thought we should try to address this.  After a fairly healthy discussion with ALL THE MODERATORS, we decided that an OPEN DISCUSSION was the best method of delivering our concerns.

Like Stayed, all those years ago at BD I did not protected myself financially. It did not went well on that issue for me at all.

There is a reason why the thread is called Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing and not Tips for Divorce.

Financial protection does not always means divorce. It just means financial protection. It is true that sometimes that financial protection can only be obtained through divorce.

The answer to the dilemma, UKS, is, I think, if divorce is really the only way of having financial protection, get the divorce. Even RCR acknowledges that sometimes a divorce is needed for financial protection.

No, Onward, your efforts of reconnection are not wrong. Like you wrote, RCR does not advocate NC. At least not after BD or in the earlier times. Unless on those cases the MLCer has been violent/is being abusive.

If a LBS wants to keep contact with their MLCer, that is a personal choice of the LBS. Some have maintained contact with their MLCer, some haven't. Of those who have, some have went NC for a while because they needed space/time.

I don't particularly like the whole idea that a LBS has to go NC no matter what. I also think that those who which to continue standing, should be able to do it and be support it on their decision.

Split open and melt, the rule book for mentors is, so to speak, the articles and the spirit HS.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Split open and melt

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2015, 08:23:54 PM »

Split open and melt, the rule book for mentors is, so to speak, the articles and the spirit HS.

That's true! Good point!

What I meant is I don't think there is always one right answer for every MLCer situation. Not even in. RCRs Articles.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 12:33:06 AM by Split open and melt »
Surrender to the Flow

Together- 15yrs /  Married-11yrs
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BD 10/25/13
Divorced as of 4/1/14

Offline willitgetbetter

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 08:22:51 PM »
Ready, I agree checking with a lawyer is the way to go but I think unless you are on the contract it is not legally binding.
How can you be responsible for debt you did sign for??

If my H bought a car on his own, I gave no legal responsibility for it.  Just because we were married doesn't mean they can come after me for his debt.  What legal obligation do I have for it in a court of law?  The car would not be considered joint, marital property.
He bought it.  I had nothing to do with it.  ??

All of that will be considered marital debt in most states. My lawyer already confirmed that the sports car H bought with OW present is marital property. It was bought behind my back and without my knowledge but it doesn't matter.

Offline LearningIamOk

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2015, 09:02:44 PM »
I agree with Willit's experience. When my xH, H at the time, bought a second condo without consulting me I hit the roof. I didn't want that kind of debt. We already had the marital home and the first condo he bought when he moved out. I filed for a D 3 days later. I was afraid of the debt he would run up and I felt I needed to put a stop to it. I am sorry I had to D to do it, but there is no legal separation in NJ.

I don't think that looking at things realistically puts an emphasis on divorce. As OP states, knowledge is power. Hiding your head in the sand as to what could befall you is no way to live. And trusting an already untrustworthy MLCer is silly. They are in ME-mode. They do not care at all how you will manage. Being prepared for possible financial ruin is the epitome of putting "your own oxygen mask on first".
trying2bok

Offline calamity

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2015, 08:19:27 AM »
FYI.  Anjae found this old thread [from 2011!--same argument 'discussing divorce on a standing site'] & I'm quoting rcr from that thread at  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1871.0

Quote
Quote from: RCR  "What seems to be the discomfort is not the divorce support but what some feel is divorce encouragement.

Now that makes sense. I’m not saying I have seen it—I don’t read the threads in detail and so you guys are more familiar. And what some of you may think of as support, others will interpret as encouragement.

I support you as you go through your journeys. Some of you will choose to get divorced and I support you in that decision—though I may not encourage it. But some of you will get divorced without choosing and we are here to support you as you go through that process. What we need to encourage is that you protect yourself. Sometimes choosing an inevitable divorce is something we may encourage. It does not mean we are encouraging divorce, but that we feel it is what you need to do—as a part of your Stand—to protect yourself and your children.

Some people see that as encouraging an immoral act. Some see it as supporting your Stand and your security in inevitable circumstances.

So I am just going to ask that we all be careful and aware. This is a site that is about preventing divorce—amidst going through the process of divorce. So of course there are going to be divorces! If it seems you are encouraging divorce, consider why and explain why so that readers may understand. Maybe the person to whom you are posting knows because you’ve gone over it before, but that person is not the only reader. What does it look like to someone else?"

Offline Rollercoasterider

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2015, 09:55:36 AM »
Now, you can't post without someone telling you to "go NC, leave them alone and just concentrate on you". Yes, that is a valid response in some cases, but I have learned more about myself from analyzing what makes my MLCer tick than I ever would've if I had followed the current mantra of "go NC and live like they won't be back". There are things I don't even bother posting because I get tired of hearing "go NC" when I am not asking for advice. I am not looking for validation either. It used to be that the response was a question to cause the LBS to think about things differently, not a demand to listen to the "experts" because NC is the "only" way.

Pair the NC theme here with the divorce talk and yes, in my opinion, the vibe of HS is changing.
It's reasonably safe to assume most who come here, at least initially, have hope for renewal of a healthy marriage and seek support in how to get there over what can be a long time. The first crucial advise is to detach -- which differs from NC.
...
It's reassuring to see what Thunder & POAS have said about NC. I've never understood how NC helps reestablish connection. Without reconnection (paving the way), I really don't know how a couple can find their way back to each other.

Yet, I've observed a real increase in the "go NC" messaging in the year or so I've been here. And the more I see 'go NC' on threads, the more I wonder if my efforts to reconnect are "wrong". I see very little on encouraging 'paving the way'. My own observation is that 'paving the way' is almost actively discouraged. (And that is an observation, not a criticism.)


NC is a seed that's been planted. It's kind of become an 'invasive species'.

Invasive species can be part of a lovely garden - but a gardener does need to keep a vigilant eye on them  :D.
I agree completely which is why I have been wroking on a No Contact article for the blog since well before this conversation began. It's been in my mind for even longer--IThis year I've received quite a few questions from the FAQ submission where people want to go No Contact. They aren;t asking what it is, it is often assumed that it should be applied and they just want to know how or sometimes if they should use it yet and then when.

I'm also working on a blog article regarding protection to address the issues we have been discussing at the mod board which lead us to starting this thread. A blog post will perhaps be more advantageous than a thread because it will be static--not get lost in the plethora of threads--and it will not get derailed by going off tangent.
That being said--Onward I agree with you and am not complaining about anything you posted. Though it may have been your post that instigated the derailment, I think others flew away with it; you said you felt financial protection is important which means you support the intended topic of this thread! Your comments about the tone are also helpful because I am trying to address them as well in the article.

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2015, 10:05:28 AM »
Good post and good find Calamity.

Hiding your head in the sand as to what could befall you is no way to live. And trusting an already untrustworthy MLCer is silly.
I'd like to suggest that maybe some LBSes are still emotionally devastated and what some view as hiding their head in the sand is the only option they have available for protecting themselves from a situation that is emotionally overwhelming. And rather than being silly perhaps they're still not able to comprehend the scope of the change the MLCer has undergone.

It's relatively easy to stand in a position of recovery and urge the LBS to do the rational, logical thing. It's difficult to hear, much less implement, when you're still standing on the edge of the cliff. One of the problems teachers sometimes have is that they forget what it's like to be new and not know anything so they address the student from a higher level than the student is prepared for. That's why PhDs often make poor teachers. They're too far removed from the beginning student.

Rolling over comes before crawling which comes before walking which comes before running. In other words, don't push the newbies too hard. Some of us are still fragile. And for some that fragility might still apply after 2 or 4 or even 6 or more years. We're not all the same. We all have our own baggage we're dealing with and might not be ready to hear the message that makes so much sense to you. First rule of writing, consider who the audience is.

Quote
Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 10:08:04 AM by MyBrainIsBroken »

Offline Airmid

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2015, 10:27:59 AM »
Well I am going to point out what can happen if a person does not look at legal letters.

The Pros and Cons of a Default Divorce

With a "Default Divorce" the spouse asking for a divorce files a divorce complaint (also called a petition in some states), the other spouse (the defendant or respondent) fails to answer the complaint or appear in court within the specified amount of time, and a divorce judgment is entered against the defendant spouse. Sounds pretty simple.

The defendant spouse may not completely understand  that by not responding, he or she is completely giving up his or her rights to contest the court’s orders.

These are some serious rights to give up so if you’ve agreed to do this, be sure you know exactly what the complaint says.

Offline Rollercoasterider

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2015, 10:30:03 AM »
Hiding your head in the sand as to what could befall you is no way to live. And trusting an already untrustworthy MLCer is silly.
I'd like to suggest that maybe some LBSes are still emotionally devastated and what some view as hiding their head in the sand is the only option they have available for protecting themselves from a situation that is emotionally overwhelming. And rather than being silly perhaps they're still not able to comprehend the scope of the change the MLCer has undergone.

It's relatively easy to stand in a position of recovery and urge the LBS to do the rational, logical thing. It's difficult to hear, much less implement, when you're still standing on the edge of the cliff. One of the problems teachers sometimes have is that they forget what it's like to be new and not know anything so they address the student from a higher level than the student is prepared for. That's why PhDs often make poor teachers. They're too far removed from the beginning student.

Rolling over comes before crawling which comes before walking which comes before running. In other words, don't push the newbies too hard. Some of us are still fragile. And for some that fragility might still apply after 2 or 4 or even 6 or more years. We're not all the same. We all have our own baggage we're dealing with and might not be ready to hear the message that makes so much sense to you. First rule of writing, consider who the audience is.
Not only well, but perhaps perfectly said. I was just writing about Accepting the Process for part of the post.

Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2015, 11:01:57 AM »
RCR -looking forward to your post. Your service to countless hurting people is so deeply appreciated.

As is the service of the many mentors and members who listen, and advise and comfort and support each other through every stage of our journey.

Thank you for your thoughtful post and the Ecclesiastes reference, MBIB. It was just what I needed today.

"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline Split open and melt

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2015, 11:13:35 AM »
MBIB, That is a valid point for sure.

However I can gaurantee you that none of us have forgotten what it was like to be new here ourselves. I can say with confidence that I will NEVER forget. I can still feel that pain and confusion like it was yesterday. I can also remember all the mistakes I made, people advised me not to make them, I made them anyway. The advice I give now I developed through my own personal experience. I deliver that advise as best I can, in a way that I think I might have heard back in the beginning. 

We all do the best we can here.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 11:16:41 AM by Split open and melt »
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Together- 15yrs /  Married-11yrs
Two Daughters 5 + 6
BD 10/25/13
Divorced as of 4/1/14

Offline Medusa

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2015, 11:20:21 AM »
MBIB, That is a valid point for sure.

However I can gaurantee you that none of us have forgotten what it was like to be new here ourselves. I can say with confidence that I will NEVER forget. I can still feel that pain and confusion like it was yesterday. I can also remember all the mistakes I made, people advised me not to make them, I made them anyway. The advice I give now I developed through my own personal experience. I deliver that advise as best I can, in a way that I think I might have heard back in the beginning. 

We all do the best we can here.

Exactly!
_____________________

Married 29 years. Divorced 12/7/16.
BD March 2013
D24, S22, Canine
Moved out November 2013
Bought townhouse for him and OW December, 2014
Mediation began April, 2014, completed June, 2015; round of mediation completed August 24.
My status: done and indifferent
____________________

That's was some f*cked up sh!t! I don't ever have to do that again!

Why are you holding on to that? How is it serving you?

One does not make the trip to he!! And back without acquiring transferable skills!

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2015, 11:26:34 AM »
MBIB, That is a valid point for sure.

However I can gaurantee you that none of us have forgotten what it was like to be new here ourselves. I can say with confidence that I will NEVER forget. I can still feel that pain and confusion like it was yesterday. I can also remember all the mistakes I made, people advised me not to make them, I made them anyway. The advice I give now I developed through my own personal experience. I deliver that advise as best I can, in a way that I think I might have heard back in the beginning. 

We all do the best we can here.

Exactly!

I second that! As someone who aimed only to 'sustain' until my MLCer came home, I did not financially plan to stand. I did not think he would file for divorce (he did). I did not think he would drag the d settlement out three years (he has). Just as RCR's personal experience has been a lantern to all of us lost in the storm, we each have things to add that will better those that come after us. Great find, Anjae, and thank you for posting it, Calamity (and RCR for the follow up!).
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Mitzpah

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2015, 11:27:01 AM »
MBIB,

Really liked your well expressed thoughts.

As a sometimes teacher, I can really understand what you are saying here

I'd like to suggest that maybe some LBSes are still emotionally devastated and what some view as hiding their head in the sand is the only option they have available for protecting themselves from a situation that is emotionally overwhelming. And rather than being silly perhaps they're still not able to comprehend the scope of the change the MLCer has undergone.

It's relatively easy to stand in a position of recovery and urge the LBS to do the rational, logical thing. It's difficult to hear, much less implement, when you're still standing on the edge of the cliff. One of the problems teachers sometimes have is that they forget what it's like to be new and not know anything so they address the student from a higher level than the student is prepared for. That's why PhDs often make poor teachers. They're too far removed from the beginning student.

Rolling over comes before crawling which comes before walking which comes before running. In other words, don't push the newbies too hard. Some of us are still fragile. And for some that fragility might still apply after 2 or 4 or even 6 or more years. We're not all the same. We all have our own baggage we're dealing with and might not be ready to hear the message that makes so much sense to you. First rule of writing, consider who the audience is.





M 58
H 58
S 27
D 24
BD 13 Dec 2010
Divorced 27 Feb 2015 (30 years marriage)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

Offline LisaLives

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2015, 11:36:30 AM »

I don't think we ever forget, either, I feel like I can still recall every minute, even clearer now that I am more recovered since calling back the memories is no longer debilitating, but surreal.  But we also know, having traveled the same road and ignoring the same advice, and seeing our friends from this and other forums get devastated, we know the potential costs. 

Just last week, another forum friend cried to me.  She is six years out and three years in D and bankruptcy court.  She waited too long to protect herself and her H and OW took EVERYTHING.  She will be leaving her multi-million dollar manse with nothing but her clothes--she will even lose her jewelry to pay debts she incurred from back child support he somehow will get out of paying... 

And that thing about default divorce, my SIL got served while she thought they were in R.  He told her to just ignore the papers.  Luckily she made it to an attorney the DAY before she would have lost everything, including HER family's business, and her mother's house...  She also lost a lot, but fortunately she made it to the courthouse in time and hired a great attorney.  But, when they are at their worst is usually when they file and fight, and the LBS is so unprepared...   

The emotional devastation is bad enough, I hate to see the number of women and the kids who are also left financially devastated--that should be considered criminal...  Love and light, ll 
The best thing about banging your head against the wall for so long is that it feels so good when you finally stop...

BD 1/16/10
D Final 7/21/11
exH married OW the next week and moved across the country to be with her... 

LL CHOSE to live happily ever after...

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2015, 11:53:23 AM »
Lisa, I too have talked to a few people who were so devastated at the time of BD they could only stand still, like a deer in the headlights, and lost everything.

It pains me to hear something like that happening. 

I think we definitely need to be gentle with newbies (I don't believe there is one person on here who forgot what it felt like), but I think it would be a disservice not to warn them of some of the pitfalls that can and do occur.

I try to explain to them getting legal advice does not mean filing for divorce...or not standing.  It was one of the first useful bits of advice I received when I joined this wonderful site. 

As far as going NC.  There is a great article on here that explains when to use it and when not to...and why.  It should never be used as a weapon.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline LearningIamOk

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2015, 07:41:14 PM »
I remember, all too well, crying for months in the shower. I remember thinking how could he do this to our family. But he did. In the beginning, he told me I could HAVE the house. When the divorce was in process, he changed his mind and wanted me to take over the equity line AND pay him $80k. I had to fight really hard to keep the house. I ended up taking on the equity line. I still worry about my financial future and xH has bought a third condo and has kept the first two to rent out. I don't have that kind of security. I'm not bad off, but what could have been a really comfortable retirement is no longer in the stars for me. I was the one cheated on, and after 33 years of marriage, my retirement dreams were ripped out from under me.

I get it that the Newbies don't want to hear anything about a D. But not knowing your rights and TRUSTING the MLCer to be fair are setting yourself up for disaster. I will always be sorry that I am divorced and couldn't pull it off. However, I am glad that I was encouraged to learn my rights. I felt the Forum members who did encourage me gave permission so I wouldn't feel  that I was doing something "illegal" concerning the Forum stance on being pro marriage and anti divorce. If it hadn't been brought up, I would have believed myself to be a traitor to the ideals stated on here.

Like Thunder, I try to explain that getting legal advice doesn't mean filing for divorce. But it's useful to surround yourself with many varying opinions and ideas on how to proceed. I did well enough, but those who won't look at the possibility of a D can end up broke.
trying2bok

Offline OldPilotTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2015, 05:18:44 AM »
Posted today by RCR on Blog
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/self-focus/financial-protection-while-standing/


Financial Protection While Standing
November 24, 2015
Divorce is an unfortunate reality of MLC marriage. Most of you who come to this site come here because you do not want a divorce and it is my goal to help Standers. But I don’t want to lead you on; divorce happens and it may happen to you. I don’t like that and of course you don’t like it; you don’t want to hear/read it; you don’t want to think it…and truth be told, you don’t want to face it. Me neither, but sorry, that’s tough; we need to face it as a possibility.

I am not going to ask or advise you to prepare for divorce. Or rather, I am not going to ask you to act with that as your motive. But the great thing about Standing and Mirror-Work is that the things you need to do to save your marriage are the same things you need to do if you choose not to Stand and they are the same things you need to do to protect yourself—Standing or not. So a checklist for what you need to do to protect yourself financially can be preparing to divorce if that is your intention, but your motives may be to assist your Stand rather than being anything to do with divorce. Same actions; different intentions. Financial protection is for both of you. By avoiding financial ruin yourself and possibly curbing your MLCer’s spending you could be preventing your own future resentment and giving your MLCer greater financial stability to return to.

Financial Protection Checklists
This site is a resource for Standers. I have tried to arm you with information about MLC in order to help you understand your spouse’s crisis, now I want to arm you with some basic information to enable you to initiate the process of protecting yourself; you must be your own advocate. I don’t want to give you an exhaustive list of the important things to do in order to protect yourself because exhaustive lists become…well, they become exhaustive and many will just skip over them or become overwhelmed. But I do think it important to provide a short starter checklist. What you can and cannot do legally varies worldwide and this is a global forum. The recommendations are considerations which may not apply to your situation or they may not be possible legally in your area. Consult an attorney to learn your rights and what you need to do to protect yourself, your finances and by doing those things you will also be protecting your marriage for reconciliation.

The first checklist was posted at the forum by Ready2Transform. I compiled the second list from moderator suggestions and a variety of websites.

Financial Protection: Questions to Ask Yourself

Financial protection is for you and your marriage.
Financial protection is for you and your marriage.
Is my spouse contributing to mortgage/rent willingly?
Is my spouse contributing to the support of the children willingly?
Do I have transportation?
Has my ability to provide basic needs like food/utilities/school expenses for the kids changed?
Do I have my own bank account, or am I totally dependent on a joint account that I could lose access to?
Do I have my own means of taking care of phone/insurance and should those suddenly be revoked?
Is my spouse accruing debts that are also my legal responsibility, but not to my benefit?
What’s my career status and what needs to happen to earn a wage that would cover all of this?
Should I to return to school so that I will have the ability to support myself and my family?
What’s my base level monthly incoming/outgoing, with and without my spouse?
Financial Protection: Things To Do

Consult with an attorney to learn your rights and what you need to do. Many attorneys offer a free initial consultation.
Open your own checking and savings accounts. Consider using these as your main accounts or at least start putting money into them.
Open your own credit card accounts. Consider freezing joint credit card accounts to avoid being responsible for MLCer spending. (This may not protect you if Community Property is the law).
List all known assets, liabilities, real estate holdings, and business interests
Gather important documents: financial, assets, debts, income…
Monitor your credit reports and shared bank accounts and credit cards for inconsistencies; continue to monitor these throughout the crisis
Do you need to update your will and insurance policies? Maybe not now, but keep this in mind.
Separate your Internet connections: stop using and close shared accounts; credit cards are often linked to these accounts for easy purchasing.
Stop sharing gadgets
Fears
You are afraid of what your MLCer will think and do if you take action to protect yourself—like getting an attorney or removing their name or yours from shared credit cards. Do you fear your MLCer will Monster even if you express the idea that you need financial protection. Will they become angry and lash out at you? Will it shock them and they will fear losing you and lose their own secret hope of a return? These are some of the basic fears that keep LBSs from protecting themselves; they don’t want to upset their MLCer even more.

Fear drives a lot of LBS actions and inactions. MLCers are unpredictable and you need to do what is best for you and it is impossible for what is best for you to be bad for your Stand. Some LBSs are afraid to detach because of how their MLCer might react. Not detaching is bad for your Stand. How can failing to protect yourself be good for you?

EmpoweredChuck Monstered when I mentioned I would get my own lawyer. I told him I’m sorry you feel that way, but that’s how these things work. There are some things that your MLCer will force you to respond to—such as divorce action. Complete inaction in such an event just gets you divorced without getting a say about what you will leave the marriage with—like shelter, your children… I know this is scary—really, I do and I know that many of you just aren’t ready to take protective action and nothing anyone says will change that; only experience will change it and you will do what you must when you are ready. I get that and accept it, but some of you will read this and be ready to take action and for those not ready, maybe you will come back to this when you are ready. Protecting yourself is part of empowering yourself and Standers need their power.

Divorce Quickly OR Drag It Out
I’ve said it before and will repeat myself: Standing is risky. Standing and being divorced are not mutually exclusive. Standing and initiating a divorce are not mutually exclusive. You can Stand during and after divorce even if technically you were the one to file. Please don’t take those words and twist them; in no way am I saying you should file for divorce. But it is important that you know what you are getting in to when you choose to Stand. Many Left Behind Spouses who are several years past Bomb Drop have determined that in the beginning when an MLCer is both feeling guilty and desperate to escape they may be more inclined to offer and sign a fair and equitable settlement, giving you financial protection with little argument. Waiting a few years into the crisis may see a dissipation of guilt or a greedy and pressuring alienator and they will fight more, increasing the conflict and contentiousness of the divorce proceedings which results in a higher court and attorney fees as well as you receiving a less equitable settlement—many will not care about your financial protection when deep in Replay and Angry Monster.
Standing is risky.

What I don’t know is how common it is for divorce to create a psychological barrier to reconciliation—for LBSs and MLCers alike. Personally I believe reconciliation is more possible if the Standing spouse maintains an open line of communication regarding their Stand (overtly or covertly communicating their Stand) so that an MLCer who becomes interested in returning senses that the door is open. If you choose to Stand and divorce quickly—because you respond to divorce action or initiate it—are you risking a greater chance at reconciliation? If you choose to not divorce quickly—by not filing or contesting to drag things out—are you risking your financial protection and loss of shared marital assets?
Standing is risky.

If legal separation is an option in your area, that may provide you with the financial protection you need while avoiding a divorce. Does that mean I advise it? No; I advise you to consider your situation dynamics, what your MLCer is providing and what you need along with what you are ready and willing to do.

Chuck filed for divorce a few months after Bomb Drop—soon for an MLCer. He stopped that legal process even faster and from then on neither of us took any legal action regarding our marriage. He did not go MLC crazy regarding finances, so I felt secure in my financial protection. As a Clinging Boomerang who very much wanted my approval and to be in my life I did not want to scare Chuck into believing I was not Standing which could thereby lead him to throw it all away in despair and become fiscally irresponsible. The danger of course is that many of you assume that your MLCer will be like Chuck and so you take the risk that I did. It will pay off for some of you and for others you will lose big. And I still did a few things to protect myself. I got a lawyer before he filed for divorce because I knew it was coming and needed to learn what I would need to do in response and I opened a savings account in my name only; my checking account was already in my name only. He did not learn about the account for a few years, so there was nothing for him to Monster about. He was upset when I said we were not going to share a lawyer; he Monstered at me and I hung up on him and did it anyway. Being upset that I was getting my own lawyer seemed to me one of those absurd things MLCers complain about that make no sense and to be honest, I gave his anger no thought other than to shake my head in bewilderment.
Yes, Standing is risky, but doing nothing in the name of your Stand is more risky.



Offline Shining Star

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2015, 06:06:45 AM »
If you are still married, but your husband lives in an apartment does that change whether you are still connected financially.  I am in Virginia.  He took his paycheck, which is much larger than mine and opened a separate account.  I do not have access to this account.  He does put a generous amount in my account every month, which essentially pays the monthly bills with some left over for me.  I have a good job and have been saving my money - in case I eventually lose what at this point is informal spousal support.  I don't think Virginia has a legal separation, but I don't know if all that we have accumulated in the past 10 months, whether it be his or mine, is joint property.  I probably made a mistake by letting him take his paycheck out of the joint account because now I can't see what is coming in for him.  Does a mediator require both parties to disclose all their assets/bank accounts?  I told him yesterday when I saw him that I wasn't ready to make anything final, so he could just stop talking about it.  I told him to keep depositing money into my account and I would let him know when I was ready.....  It is a very small way for me to have some type of control.
H:56, I am 54
BD: March 2014, Left Sept 2014, Back Nov 2014
Left again in February 2015.  Asked for D on 9/22/15
Said he was "sure" he wanted a D in Dec 2015; 
Admitted long term affair - May 14, 2017 - says he is in love with the "symptom" but wants to build a relationship with me with "clear expectations" WHATEVER THAT MEANS!  Settlement Agreement signed 9/20/17.
Divorce final 3/14/18.
NC - by choice - 1/2018

Offline stayed

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2015, 06:29:45 AM »
You need to consult a lawyer forever sad!  This forum is Global, we don't know all the legalities for every state and country.  All we are trying to do is make you AWARE that not knowing your legal rights is very dangerous.  As said before, Legal Firms often offer "free consultations", which will give you the bare bone facts about legal entitlements. 

We strongly advise that you educate yourself. 

Married 42yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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LBS SCRIPT

Offline OldPilotTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2015, 07:00:42 AM »
Forever Sad

It is MHO that all your assets and your liabilities are joint as long as you are married.

So if he spends all his money on the OW or anything else that is YOUR fault,
since it is joint since you are still married.

I agree with Stayed - contact a lawyer and protect yourself.



Quick story - I have a female friend from another forum who got divorced in NJ, which is very pro women and anti men(as some male LBS's from this forum can attest) she was told by the judge that the fact that her husband stole all of her retirement(300-400 thousand dollars) and then lied about not having a job was HER fault.
That she should have been more aware of what he was doing.

To this day she is financially ruined and her husband has lots of money.

Please protect yourself.

Offline Rollercoasterider

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2015, 07:03:45 AM »
COMMUNITY PROPERTY STATES VERSES COMMON LAW PROPERTY STATES
Community Property States
Alaska
Arizona
California
Louisiana
Idaho
New Mexico
Nevada
Texas
Washington
Wisconsin

So Virginia is Common Law


Common Law
property acquired by a married person during marriage is the property of that person separately, unless the person agrees with his or her spouse to hold the property jointly.

Community Property
property acquired by either spouse while married becomes community property. Property acquired before marriage, as well as property inherited or received as a gift during a marriage, is generally considered the separate property of the recipient spouse.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 07:17:33 AM by Rollercoasterider »

Offline Medusa

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2015, 07:21:28 AM »
FS, listen to Stayed: consult a lawyer.

VA does not have legal separation per se. What happens is that the details of possible/presumed divorce are hammered out, and that is the basis for the divorce. Also, we are an equitable distribution state, which means they look at the salaries of both and distribute equitably. For example, in my sitch, STBX makes 91% of our joint income, so he will get a much larger share of the debt and gets to pay quite a bit in alimony.

If you were married more than 20 years, you should get alimony for life. My lawyer said that's pretty much automatic. Although there is no legal formula for figuring out alimony, most in NOVA use what's called the Fairfax formula. There are tons of resources about that online.

I don't want you to think that consulting an attorney automatically means divorce. It doesn't. But I learned the hard way to find a divorce attorney. You get what you pay for. Mine is expensive, but she really knows her stuff. Also, a lawyer will be able to get him to disclose everything. A lawyer can subpoena. One of those "professional" mediators can't.

FS, please do not go the professional mediator route unless you have a lawyer at your side the entire time. I agreed to it, and the final document that guy wrote isn't even consistent with VA law. What my lawyer told me is that she tries to get everyone into mediation, but the lawyers are present and the mediator is a retired judge. She will not do it any other way. If you do elect to go private mediation, please let me know--I don't want to see you wind up with the same idiot I did (who cost STBX $10K and the entire document has been thrown out). Mediation of that time doesn't work with an MLCer because it involves honesty. I caught mine in many financial lies during the process. Ultimately, that was the biggest mistake I made during this process.

Stayed is right that many legal firms will offer free consultations. I'm sorry to say that doesn't seem to be the case in our area. I had to suck it up and pay. I did a ton of Internet research before settling on my current attorney, and I talked to paralegals on the phone before making an initial appointment.

If you want the name of mine, PM me. I'm not sure if she still works in your area (she's in Fred) as far as having an office, and I know traveling that distance is an issue for you. But if she can't help you, she might have suggestions.

OP, Virginia law gets really weird about assets because we area one to the states that still allows fault divorce. Assets remain assets for the duration of the marriage, no matter what they buy, so technically, in my case, the diamonds I saw on OW's hand are partly mine (yeah, I certainly want those!  :o ). His townhouse mortgage is not in my name, but I still have a claim to it because he bought it while we were married. And yeah, if he is now a partner in that airplane, I get to claim it S's an asset, too. My lawyer tells me, though, that normally the state is pretty reasonable about debt, especially when infidelity is involved. She said that fr the date of separation, often debt is considered his and hers. The problems come in with joint debt, like credit cards. So whatever charges mine has rung up on his personal card are his problem and mine are my problem.

So FS, this is why you've got to seek legal advice. It's unbelievably confusing, especially in a state where divorce for infidelity is still allowed. Doesn't mean the divorce is going to happen--it just means you've got to get yourself protected.
_____________________

Married 29 years. Divorced 12/7/16.
BD March 2013
D24, S22, Canine
Moved out November 2013
Bought townhouse for him and OW December, 2014
Mediation began April, 2014, completed June, 2015; round of mediation completed August 24.
My status: done and indifferent
____________________

That's was some f*cked up sh!t! I don't ever have to do that again!

Why are you holding on to that? How is it serving you?

One does not make the trip to he!! And back without acquiring transferable skills!

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2015, 09:27:57 AM »
Wow Medusa, your laws are so different from ours.

In MN if you separate any debt that acquired after separation is not considered marital property....or marital debt.
After we separated if he bought a car it was his debt, not mine.

I'm not sure about a mediator being able to get income verification, I believe you're right a lawyer would have to do  that.

Forever, is your H asking for a D?  If so then I would recommend talking to a lawyer to get information.  Not so much about a D but he can tell you how to protect yourself, financially.  If he is not, I'd still talk to a lawyer so you know what to expect.

You're lucky your H is giving you enough money to live on and pay the bills.  A lot of them don't.  But just please be aware this could change.  MLCer's are very selfish and can turn on a dime.  I hope he doesn't but better to be prepared.

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline calamity

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2015, 07:23:00 PM »
Canadian government site: 

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/fl-df/

You still need to consult a lawyer [there is a $25 first time fee].  If you both earn wages it is simple.  If there is a business involved it's way more complicated.  The guy joke here is, 'if your wife files for divorce, buy a new truck.'

There are slight variations within provinces [i.e. in some provinces you can give up your rights to spouse's pension others not].

On the site is a link to a calculator for estimating spousal &/or child support.  Very easy to figure out on your own.

A whole country with one divorce law.  Nice, eh?  Of course the whole country is the size of California in population.

The idea of divorce makes most of us lbs's physically ill.  Take gravol or tums & carry on.  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2015, 09:54:50 PM »
I like the blog section that discuses whether it's better to divorce early or drag it out. It's too bad there's really no way to know for sure since it's situational.

New York is also an Equitable Division state.

Quote
New York is an equitable division state, which means each spouse owns the income he or she earns during the marriage, and also has the right to manage any property that's in his or her name alone. But at divorce, whose name is on what property isn't the only deciding factor. A judge will determine an equitable division of assets, which may or may not be exactly equal.

How Does Equitable Distribution Work?

When New York was a community property state, property was divided according to whose name was on the title of a given property. So even if both spouses paid into the mortgage (or one was an unpaid homemaker), for example, the individual whose name is on the title would get the house. The goal of equitable distribution in a divorce is to make sure it is fair, with respect to the contributions of each spouse to the marriage and what each party needs after the split.

In New York, a judge will consider the following factors in order to devise a fair distribution of property (this is not a complete list, just some examples):

The income and property of each spouse at the date of marriage and the date of the divorce filing.
The age and health of each spouse.
The domestic requirements of the custodial parent.
Whether alimony has been awarded.
Likely future financial needs of each spouse.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/new-york-law/new-york-marital-property-laws.html

Findlaw's a good source for researching divorce laws in the US.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/family-laws.html

Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2015, 09:55:46 AM »
In Canada, family law and property division does vary from province to province. Sorry Calamity, the federal site provides good overall guidance and useful tools, but there isn't one law for the whole country. Couldn't possibly make it that simple!  ;D
"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline Medusa

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2015, 02:47:08 PM »
In Canada, family law and property division does vary from province to province. Sorry Calamity, the federal site provides good overall guidance and useful tools, but there isn't one law for the whole country. Couldn't possibly make it that simple!  ;D

Sure you are t talking about the 50 states, Onward!  :P
_____________________

Married 29 years. Divorced 12/7/16.
BD March 2013
D24, S22, Canine
Moved out November 2013
Bought townhouse for him and OW December, 2014
Mediation began April, 2014, completed June, 2015; round of mediation completed August 24.
My status: done and indifferent
____________________

That's was some f*cked up sh!t! I don't ever have to do that again!

Why are you holding on to that? How is it serving you?

One does not make the trip to he!! And back without acquiring transferable skills!

Offline stayed

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2015, 08:20:52 PM »
Wow, thanks for that information Onward.  Like Calamity, I was of the opinion that it was NO FAULT divorce across the entire country. 

Hugs Stayed
Married 42yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT


Offline stayed

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2016, 10:39:19 AM »
Good idea OP!

Are there some LBS's out there that are worried about their financial security?  Worried about whether they should be more proactive or LESS proactive in securing their finances?  This is the place to ask those questions that you never thought you would have to ask.  Don't be ashamed... BE PREPARED! 

Hugs Stayed
Married 42yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline iamnottheenemy

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  • I'm looking through you, you're not the same
Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2016, 07:19:36 AM »
I'd like to hear from any UK LBSes who got a good financial settlement. Nearly two years after decree nisi and Form E, my solicitor still hasn't sat down with H's to iron things out.

PM me if you have a solicitor you're happy with...
H 50
M 46
D 16
T 22 years
M 20 years
BD 6/24/12
D & I moved out 7/1/12 (pre-planned)
OW1  June 2012
OW2 Sept. 2012
OW3 Nov. 2012
OW4 Dec. 2012-present

Offline osb

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2016, 09:51:12 PM »
One rather obscure issue I ran into (per Canadian law, variable like anywhere else): In whose name is supposedly 'marital property' registered? My H had registered our house (which we built together, some 15 years ago) in his name only. Something he mumbled about protecting assets, as I work in a field in which people sometimes get sued. For reasons that seem stupid now, I went along ("we'll be together forever, what does it matter?").

Two days after BD, suddenly my H is frantically trying to kick me out of our house (saying, very reasonably in his mind, "you don't need this place, you could live anywhere, but I would die if I lost this sanctuary"). I talk with a lawyer (didn't want to go there, but I thought a divorce was coming immediately; also my H is twice my size and I might've wound up on the street). Lawyer tells me, technically H is right; he can kick me out, I can't ask him to leave. The most I can get is a share of the value of the house. H is monstering and I'm terrified; but if I leave the house and go to my mom's, seems I've given up any marital rights to the property. Lawyer tells me, don't leave or you give up the largest financial asset accrued in your marriage.

FWIW I waited it out (occasionally hiding in the basement; occasionally taking a mental health day at my mom's). H cooled down eventually, never moved out himself but hid out in the hills for months on end (that didn't affect his ownership of the dang house! >:( ).

We are reconciling now; just the other day (more than a year after we started to reconnect!) H finally agreed the house should be in both our names. And we need wills. I take this normalcy as an indicator that MLC is finally over. For me, I'll never be cavalier about my financial security again, H or no H. We can teeter on the edge of a precipice in this journey.
"You have a right to action, not to the fruit thereof; shoot your arrow, but do not look to see where it lands."  -Bhagavad Gita

Offline Songanddance

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2016, 01:15:17 AM »
UK law is very different in that it is not as important as to who pays the mortgage as to whose names the house is in. This is assuming that the marital property is owned and not rented.
That said - the mortgage payments are taken into consideration by the courts - balance of payments and financial input V the financial equity etc..

If an LBS finds him/herself in the situation that he/she is not named on the house deeds then she/he can apply to Land Registry to get his/her name added on. IT is a relatively straightforward procedure and doesn't need the MLCer's approval. This has to be done before the D proceedings start though.

Each case for dividing the assets varies and as I am not Dd or legally separated - I cannot comment on that.

However what I have discovered is that legally one spouse cannot kick the other out of the marital home nor change the locks.
  If the MLCer leaves and doesn't return within 6 months then the LBS may change the locks (but the MLCer has to be informed) - However they have removed their marital right to enter the home at will.  They can only enter with your consent after that. If during that 6 month period they return - even for just a visit then it has to be a further 6 months of not being in the home from that date.
That said - all the possessions in the house are technically joint and the right to the equity is still valid.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 01:18:46 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline stayed

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2016, 10:16:07 AM »
For me, I'll never be cavalier about my financial security again, H or no H. We can teeter on the edge of a precipice in this journey.

Nor me Osb!  We can love them to death, but living on the streets, penniless...proves nothing! 

PROTECT YOURSELVES my dear fellow LBS'S... nobody else will look after you! 

Hugs Stayed
Married 42yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
Survival Instructions for Newbies
The Mentor Program
LBS SCRIPT

Offline Medusa

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2016, 04:07:45 AM »
For me, I'll never be cavalier about my financial security again, H or no H. We can teeter on the edge of a precipice in this journey.

Nor me Osb!  We can love them to death, but living on the streets, penniless...proves nothing! 

PROTECT YOURSELVES my dear fellow LBS'S... nobody else will look after you! 

Hugs Stayed

Same. Whatever happens with my life, there will be separate finances.

We don't think they are going to so the things they do. Destroyed though we are, we've got to be smart. The MLCer is not the person we used to know, and many of them are positively fixated on money. Protect thyself. It leads to financial and emotional independence and is an important part of our healing process!
_____________________

Married 29 years. Divorced 12/7/16.
BD March 2013
D24, S22, Canine
Moved out November 2013
Bought townhouse for him and OW December, 2014
Mediation began April, 2014, completed June, 2015; round of mediation completed August 24.
My status: done and indifferent
____________________

That's was some f*cked up sh!t! I don't ever have to do that again!

Why are you holding on to that? How is it serving you?

One does not make the trip to he!! And back without acquiring transferable skills!

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #83 on: January 20, 2016, 12:36:35 PM »
I was fortunate because I learned this lesson long before BD when my wife decided to stop working at one point and the loss of her paycheck put us into a serious financial bind. My solution was to start paying for everything myself and to let my wife do whatever she wanted with her salary. It worked out well because she paid for a lot of the extras for the kids and grandkids that we wouldn't have been able to afford otherwise and when BD hit and she left I had no problems financially because I had already been paying for everything. It wasn't until the state stepped in and told me I had to also pay for my wife's lawyer and a large portion of her new household expenses that I began to run into financial problems. And now that D32 isn't working and I'm making all of the payments on the house I helped her buy plus helping her with groceries and some of the kid's expenses I'm finding that my salary isn't nearly enough to support three households. But that's just financial problems which should be easy to solve compared to dealing with my wife's MLC.

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2016, 05:41:49 PM »
Bumpidee Bump Bump
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2016, 07:05:52 PM »
Thanks Ready.

This is a very important issue for all LBS's.

Protect yourself and beware of the laws where you reside.

Stayed is right, no one else will take care of you.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

 

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