Author Topic: Discussion Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing  (Read 18382 times)

Offline Airmid

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Discussion Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2015, 11:05:54 AM »
Honestly there is a lot to consider with this topic.

Property

When was the property acquired?

1) Before the marriage? - then the property is yours but your spouse can make a claim for capital improvements, ongoing mortgage payments, other expenses if the Spouse can show the money was paid for with joint marital funds. So if your spouse is still making some sort of contribution towards the upkeep of "your" house - beware.  If however you can show that the property is maintained solely by funds outside of joint marital assets (inherited monies for instance) - then you are safe from Spouse making a claim against the property.

2) After the marriage?  Then the property is joint.  If you spouse is still paying mortgage etc - this may be in your favor. But if the divorce will result in you needing to sell your home and split the proceeds - again you must consider the ramifications of this.

Retirement Assets.


Payments made to a 401K or other such fund are considered joint assets after 10 years of marriage.  Married 9 years?  You may want to drag things out to secure the funds.

Likewise you are entitled to your spouses social security after 10 years of marriage.

Child support

Do you have children and is the spouse currently paying more of their share towards the children's support?  Excellent - document this as it will be handy later should you need to go to court later.  If that is the case - you may want hold off a divorce.  If however you are not being properly funded and your Spouse has no intentions of paying their share - then securing the funds via a divorce may be more prudent.

How is the Spouse behaving with regard to finances?


Is the Spouse buying MLC sports cars and emptying your bank account?
That's a concern that can be stopped via legal means.

If the spouse is a low level wallower and not really doing anything - then you can keep an eye on things and wait.

Health Insurance

Is your Spouse providing you with health insurance under their employee benefits plan?
Do you have access to your own health insurance?
Health insurance is pretty darn expensive these days - this is another consideration.

Your credit


In many states debt is considered joint - no matter who has the credit card, loan etc.
Is your spouse running up the credit card bills?  Are you?
What about your credit rating?
Are you filing jointly on taxes - if so this can expose you to more financial liability with the tax agencies.

The bottom line is - it would be nice to have a list of questions to consider before you discuss legal issues with your attorney - but I think it is imperative to go right away to a divorce attorney and find out  where you stand legally in your own particular state.

Finally - draw yourself up a reasonable budget before all hell breaks loose.
If you need to move out to the marital home - what will that cost you - assuming the home does not sell right away.  How much child support do you need?  What about your health insurance, home insurance etc.

If you have been a person who relied upon the Spouse to handle the finances - you need to wake up and smell the coffee - its your responsibility to figure these things out on paper - even before you talk to a legal advisor or your Spouse.




Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2015, 01:41:49 PM »
Airmid - such amazing points!

Quote
Again, when/if the MLCer returns they have something to return to - everything hasn't been destroyed.

This was my reasoning behind why I fought so hard to cure the financial ills he left behind on my own without pushing - I didn't feel he was capable of owning his part at that point, but that was me trying to control the situation and not accept it. Instead he took the money he saved not paying for his responsibilities, and dug a deeper hole. It didn't cure what was left behind and created a bigger cavern! I was very emotionally attached to keeping "connections" in place that will likely have to be fixed in more dramatic, damaging ways now. And still he is in replay. I would be less likely to want him back now because of his NEW financial problems, which paying his share of the original things might have saved him from having.

I'm a bit confused.

I think this site is for standers but you have to be realistic.  Divorces do happen and a person has to be prepared for that.  A lot of people come on this forum not thinking about the possible financial mess they may find themselves in.

To me a stander is someone who does not initiate a D, does no work on it and stands for their marriage...or relationship.  Loves their spouse and tries everything in their power to wait it out.  But gets legal advice to protect themselves.

If the spouse does divorce them they can still stand.  Many do.

Am I missing something here?

LisaLives, why would this type of conversation not be allowed??

I don't think you're missing anything. :) Sometimes though, legal advice may include having to take legal action, if it comes to that. We should all know where that boundary lays. I think that's the best reason for this "true north" seeking.

When I came here in 2012 there was very little divorce going on, but there were also far less LBSs here. It really has been in just the last year or two that open discussion about divorce has happened. Even the word itself is used instead of the dreaded "D" that would only occasionally appear.

Of course it's not what any of us wanted, but at the end of the day, we have to care more about our own relationships with a higher power if we have one and how that defines what is right for us, and our individual situations and futures, versus following a program, trusting a psychological process as we interpret it to be, or keeping a forum full of strangers on or off of a difficult topic.

And that's not to depersonalize any of you because it is amazing that you are here and are seeking ways to survive this nightmare (and kicking a lot of ass doing it because you are still HERE and thriving!), but if you don't agree, just don't read the thread. It's really that simple. If enough people find it unnecessary they won't comment on it, and it will get buried pages back, thus eliminating a thread that doesn't fit the core needs of the HS family. Just my .02.

"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Onward

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2015, 02:53:16 PM »
Airmid *has* made great points - about divorce in her jurisdiction, as she understands it.

Family (divorce) law is different in mine. If I followed her 'great points', it would be damaging to me where I am.

Honestly, there are so many nuances to family law in all of the different points on the globe represented by members here on HS.

Providing a list of things to check, if one finds themselves needing to prepare for a possible divorce, makes sense.

Anything else? Information could actually be misleading. There's a reason why divorce law is a specialty feeding a lot of lawyers  :P.

R2T, you're actually supporting the point I was trying to make - momentum shifts when you start to focus on a particular topic. When the focus starts to be on "D", advice starts to be framed from the point of  divorce.

Yes, divorce happens. Yes, members need to be prepared. Yes, maybe it would be helpful to have such a list on the resources page.

Can we just acknowledge that when there is a lot of talk of how to prepare for divorce, it plants different seeds than a lot of talk of how to stand?

No criticism of LL, but there's some sad irony to this on a forum for standers:
Perhaps it is time to split the forum topics and note topics that may not be something a stander would want to read... 

I read far more than I post. I suspect I'm not the only one. I see the full range of conversations on the board. This is the place I come for support, and when I can, to give support in a small community that "gets it". That understands my spouse is in MLC (I think) and I don't want a divorce.
That says:
You're not crazy for wanting to restore your marriage.
You're not crazy for continuing to love a man who's behaviour is hurtful and hard to understand.
Yes, you can keep going.
No, you don't have to engage the legal process just because it's been 16 months, and nothing's happening.
Yes, you do have to look at where and how you need to change yourself.
Yes, it is normal to still think of your spouse with love everyday.
Yes, it is normal to still feel some sadness one, two, five, ten years along.
Yes, it is noble to stand for your marriage.
Yes, you can be committed, and feel the hurt without being a doormat.
No you don't have to 'move on', and furthermore there's nothing wrong with you if you don't want to 'move on'.

I've read the family law act in my jurisdiction. I've read legal blogs from my jurisdiction. I have a lawyer. I have a mediator. I have a draft separation agreement I haven't signed. I expect any day I may be served. Or not. I'm certainly not *afraid* of the D word, nor do I need to be protected from the D word. Quite frankly, most days I think "D" would be a whole lot easier than standing *especially* now that the drama is done and time has dragged on. .

As you can probably tell  ::), I think there are enough people telling me what to do to prepare for divorce, and precious few who help me stand.

I suspect there was a sophisticated psychological reason the HS forums didn't focus on divorce.
Talk of divorce makes me feel really, really alone. It makes me doubt my stand.
And I bet I'm not the only one.






"and though she be but little, she is fierce" - Shakespeare

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2015, 03:50:38 PM »
Onward-As you can probably tell  ::), I think there are enough people telling me what to do to prepare for divorce, and precious few who help me stand.

Oh Onward I hope that is not the case.
I truly think standing for your marriage is so important and so hard to do.  We do need to support all those who are standing.
It's not for the faint of heart.  It takes courage and a lot of patience, understanding. love and forgiveness.

We face people every day who tell us we need to move on.  So hard to hear because, even though they care about us, they do not understand MLC.

I have the highest respect for standers.

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Online xyzcf

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2015, 04:10:01 PM »
Onward stated:

Quote
This is the place I come for support, and when I can, to give support in a small community that "gets it". That understands my spouse is in MLC (I think) and I don't want a divorce.
That says:
You're not crazy for wanting to restore your marriage.
You're not crazy for continuing to love a man who's behaviour is hurtful and hard to understand.
Yes, you can keep going.
No, you don't have to engage the legal process just because it's been 16 months, and nothing's happening.
Yes, you do have to look at where and how you need to change yourself.
Yes, it is normal to still think of your spouse with love everyday.
Yes, it is normal to still feel some sadness one, two, five, ten years along.
Yes, it is noble to stand for your marriage.
Yes, you can be committed, and feel the hurt without being a doormat.
No you don't have to 'move on', and furthermore there's nothing wrong with you if you don't want to 'move on'.

I agree totally with what Onward has written. I do not feel supported on HS as a stander. There is a small group that gets that MLC is real and that standing is possible and desirable. It is also very very hard and very very lonely.

Sorry folks but I see standers way outnumbered on HS and thus, there is almost an "underground" of people who communicate not on the threads but privately because it just too hard to defend their belief in MLC.

LisaLives wrote:
Quote
I understand Onward's concerns, having been around this Forum for a LONG time, the original true standers talked about being an obstacle to divorce, this conversation would NOT have been allowed.

I have been a member since July 2010 and I have NEVER seen that any conversation was not allowed.

and this:
Quote
Perhaps it is time to split the forum topics and note topics that may not be something a stander would want to read... 

I had a double take when I read this. Sorry, it just hit me the wrong way.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

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Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2015, 04:31:08 PM »
Quote
I've read the family law act in my jurisdiction. I've read legal blogs from my jurisdiction. I have a lawyer. I have a mediator. I have a draft separation agreement I haven't signed. I expect any day I may be served. Or not. I'm certainly not *afraid* of the D word, nor do I need to be protected from the D word. Quite frankly, most days I think "D" would be a whole lot easier than standing *especially* now that the drama is done and time has dragged on. .

And this is what we're encouraging (though again, all of these questions are things STANDERS need to answer, because standing is uncertain and possibly expensive!). If we can help people find some sort of footing amid the uncertainty, it will alleviate some of the emotional pain that is coming from the years of asking, "What would I do if a or b happens?!". They will be prepared, and then they can exhale. It wards off all of the naysayers who are trying to tell you to file, to do this, to do that, when you can say, "Nope - I got this."

I am 52 months deep into this nightmare, and I have been a stander for most of that, even through divorce. I STILL want to see him come out of this whole and healthy and I frame my interactions with him to not build any more resentment or blockage to MLC progression. I learned that from the amazing people here. THANK YOU! But I think there are two issues here that need not be mutually exclusive, which are making sure your situation is stable so you can focus on emotional healing post-BD, and choosing to stand for your marriage. TOUGH decisions, absolutely. But I don't think choosing to ignore one will make the other more fruitful. I *did* believe mine wouldn't file and since I had good money coming in, I didn't prepare for the rain that came. I will encourage others to not do that because I know first hand how devastating that can be.

And no, I don't believe being realistic and discussing many of the things that we're forced into is what caused a rise in people getting divorced or choosing not to stand on the forum. I still see most divorces here initiated by the MLCer, as mine was. There are just many more people here now, from varying beliefs and situations. Everyone has to decide for themselves whether standing is right for them. If something that major can be so easily swayed in either direction by an anonymous internet forum, then the person was probably not that committed to standing anyway.

"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Head.Held.High

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2015, 05:08:08 PM »
Just my 2 cents..

I am a stander for the most part.  I've been at this since 8/2012.  H moved back and forth about 8 times.  I stood.  I waited.  I cried, prayed, lost 52lbs, all the while my family (kids) and my friends couldn't understand what I was waiting for.  Well, I love this man.  With all my heart and soul.  And when I was served with divorce papers in late July last year, right after my Mom died, I still stood.  They all thought I was crazy.  Except for my best, best friend in the entire world.  She simply said, "Whatever you decide, I'm behind you".  She is my rock.

I do feel now, that I could go either way, stand or D.  It's his choice, not mine.  I do not want a divorce.  I hate the word and the meaning behind it.  But if he chooses to go there, I know I will be ok.  I only hired a lawyer because I HAD to, not because I wanted to.  When he first threw out the divorce word, he wanted me to go get one.  I interviewed several lawyers and then I said to myself, if he wants a divorce, he can do the work.  Well he initiated it and dropped it and initiated it again.  I have no other choice but to hire one to fight for what I deserve.

I thank you God everyday I found this site as it helps me tremendously.  First thing in the morning, I get my coffee and get on HS.  The last place I lurk is here.  Thank you all for being here even though we are in the crappiest boat in the sea.  It will get better, I do believe that.  Good evening friends.
08/12 - Discovered EA
09/12 - H Moved Out and back at least four times since.
07/14 - EA moved to PA - found a letter from OW
08/14 - H Filed for D
12/14 - H dropped his D proceedings - Mine still active
09/15 - Back to Lawyers for D to continue
02/16 - I moved out of his home
03/16  - OW moved in his home
11/16 - He kicked OW out and begged me to come home.  Tried "dating" again.
03/16 - Told him I would not move back in.
03/16 - OW back (2 days after I told him)

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2015, 05:16:17 AM »
Some time ago I wrote a post to Tennessee concerning things that I wished people would do prior to seeing me in reference to a possible divorce action.  Preparation type things.  Along the lines of proper preparation prevents poor performance.  Most of us were at least threatened with legal action at some point.  To me it is not a question of standing or not to be properly prepared and educated as to the legal process and our rights. 

That said, yes, I agree the forum has changed over time.  Not all the changes are things I agree with.  Principally I disagree with what I perceive to be the dilution of the message of the writings.  I came here not as a stander but as a person wishing to heal.  So I focused on that aspect.  In many ways that allowed me the space to do my work as laid out in the writings rather than focus on my ex and the question of standing etc.  I was pushed to do the hard work on myself.   The result is that not only did I heal but my ex wants to return.

Now I read over and over people taking bits and pieces of the information and loudly proclaiming "I am going to do it my way."  Followed by a close second justification of "I know my h" and the ever popular I want advice but only that which I agree with.  I want validation and support alone.  My h is special.  I don't need to do mirror work, there's nothing wrong with me.  That's navel gazing, a waste of time.  X was nice to her husband and he is still around so I'm going to do the same thing even though my h is of a totally different type.  We don't really know what works so...

All this seems to me to be a dilution of the writings and at times simple justification for not doing the hard work.  Yes it's true there are no hard and fast rules as in a board game.  And we don't know the one specific action that would bring the spouse back.  Etc.

But we do know until we are on our way to being healed, healthy, and strong there is no chance the spouse is coming back to stay.   We do know they aren't coming back to the old marriage.  We do know this process is counterintuitive.  We do know the spouse and the lbs have like issues and are on parallel paths in many ways but to different degrees. 

If you are truly going to stand for your marriage, then stand and do the work on yourself.
If you decide not to stand, then don't but still do the work on yourself.

You will never be sorry you did either way.  Its hard, it's emotional, its brutal, but it's worth it.  That is the real gift of time. 

Best LP

if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline OldPilotTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2015, 05:21:49 AM »
Some time ago I wrote a post to Tennessee concerning things that I wished people would do prior to seeing me in reference to a possible divorce action.  Preparation type things.  Along the lines of proper preparation prevents poor performance.  Most of us were at least threatened with legal action at some point.  To me it is not a question of standing or not to be properly prepared and educated as to the legal process and our rights. 

That said, yes, I agree the forum has changed over time.  Not all the changes are things I agree with.  Principally I disagree with what I perceive to be the dilution of the message of the writings.  I came here not as a stander but as a person wishing to heal.  So I focused on that aspect.  In many ways that allowed me the space to do my work as laid out in the writings rather than focus on my ex and the question of standing etc.  I was pushed to do the hard work on myself.   The result is that not only did I heal but my ex wants to return.

Now I read over and over people taking bits and pieces of the information and loudly proclaiming "I am going to do it my way."  Followed by a close second justification of "I know my h" and the ever popular I want advice but only that which I agree with.  I want validation and support alone.  My h is special.  I don't need to do mirror work, there's nothing wrong with me.  That's navel gazing, a waste of time.  X was nice to her husband and he is still around so I'm going to do the same thing even though my h is of a totally different type.  We don't really know what works so...

All this seems to me to be a dilution of the writings and at times simple justification for not doing the hard work.  Yes it's true there are no hard and fast rules as in a board game.  And we don't know the one specific action that would bring the spouse back.  Etc.

But we do know until we are on our way to being healed, healthy, and strong there is no chance the spouse is coming back to stay.   We do know they aren't coming back to the old marriage.  We do know this process is counterintuitive.  We do know the spouse and the lbs have like issues and are on parallel paths in many ways but to different degrees. 

If you are truly going to stand for your marriage, then stand and do the work on yourself.
If you decide not to stand, then don't but still do the work on yourself.

You will never be sorry you did either way.  Its hard, it's emotional, its brutal, but it's worth it.  That is the real gift of time. 

Best LP

AMEN!  - Great Post - especially the bolded part!

Oh and one more thing

STANDING is NOT STILL

Offline Thunder

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Re: Financial Checklist and Legal ramifications of Standing
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2015, 08:53:00 AM »
I just want to throw this out there.

I've heard a few people comment on how the forum has changed over the years.  I've seen it too but wonder if it's because we are seeing more and more younger MLCer's out there now.

When I joined this forum maybe 4 years ago it seemed everyone...or most..were in their 40's and 50's.  Now we are seeing quite a few in their 30's.  Most were married, now we are seeing people who never married.

Maybe that is part of the change.   People in their 30's think very differently than people in their 50's (or in my case 60's).
Maybe they are not as apt to wait it out and stand.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

 

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