Author Topic: My Story How can she  (Read 11532 times)

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
My Story How can she
« on: January 06, 2016, 08:32:22 AM »
My Bomb Drop occurred Feb 27, 2015.  At the time, I had no idea what a journey I was in for.
After an enjoyable dinner and evening with my wife and family, kids tucked in, MW went to bed early, while I stayed up for some TV.  Bored; I picked her phone up in the kitchen, to check her texts.  OK, so maybe my marriage wasn’t perfect, there had been a few small warning shots, I guess maybe that is why I was snooping.  But still, I had no real reason to suspect anything.  It was more idle curiosity than anything.  I trusted my wife of 14 years, fully.  And there was nothing exciting or unexpected in the texts.  Girl talk , and school discussions. (She is a teacher, at the school where our three kids go).  I saw her FB Messenger app.  Not too familiar with this, I clicked. 
               My world ended!! 
Months of progressively intimate and detailed messages between my (I thought) loving, trustworthy, passionate wife and another man!  WHAT!!!  HOW!!!  I was up reading this for hours, in more pain then I’ve ever known.  No sleep that night.  The next day I confronted her.  She came clean.  This “person of interest” is someone she almost got with 20 years ago.   Ultimately, they could not make the leap, and went their separate ways.  He, on to marry his fiancé and MW (married at the time), tried unsuccessfully, to save her 1st marriage.  But I had never heard of this other man before.  Not a story, not a memory.  Nothing.  And they had not spoken either… Until this wonderful gift we call Face Book, let them “Friend” each other.  Then it was… How has your life been for the past 19 years, remember when, what could have been, hey I’m not really happy, me neither, and finally…, what if we… now???  Because I was in such a foreign land, I made all the mistakes possible, and then some.  I tried everything to save our relationship, I asked questions, explained, negotiated, lectured, begged.  I could change.  What is wrong? I asked her to change her meds.  (She has been diagnosed as Bi-Polar. But we have always made it through her swings.)  I asked her to change her mind.  I asked over and over.  Stop talking to him.  We can make this work.  End It Period!  I found songs that said what I could not, and I wrote letters from my heart.  I am a strong person.  I go after what I want, and usually get it.  There is no way I am going to lose this woman, the one I love; to another man.  Someone who she has not seen in 19 years.  Someone who is married with two kids of his own.  Someone who lives 1,000 miles away.  What is she thinking?  Has she lost it?  How does she see this playing out?  Our kids?  Her job?  Our life??  She is confused, she said.  She loves me, but she has fallen for him. 
It is the perfect Lifetime Movie...
   Torn apart by circumstances, they go their separate ways, live their lives and start families, only to find each other again; 20 years later.  And finally, have their perfect love!
This continued for months.  We had talks, and she gave reasons.  We had arguments, and make up sessions.  I gave her space.  I tried to address each and every grievance she could come up with.  I tried explaining that this is a fantasy.  A person can be anyone in a text or on the phone for a few hours a day.  We attempting counseling, both together and separately.  This is where the term MLC was first introduced to her (us).    She continued with talk with me.  She continued to talk with him.  She is undecided what she needs to do.  The entire nightmare progressed.  Monster Mode !  She would talk to him after school for hours, then come home, and be a wonderful mother and wife.  We had family movie nights on the couch, but then after, she would disappear to “say good night” to him on the phone.  She would take long walks at night with the dog… and her phone.  I even found her having phone sex late one night.  Possibly the worst night of my life.  Absolute Hell, that is where I was living.  I took so much BS that I was doubting myself.  Am I too nice?  A push over?  I can be strong!  I can’t lose her, I’ll do anything to save her, but am I the man I want to be?  I want to be a good example for our kids.   
Through everything, I continued with one line she could not cross.  If she went to see him, we were done!  I was adamant.   I am an optimist, so I kept finding positives from this, too.  I was more involved around the house.  She hadn’t actually gone to see him.  She and I were talking more than we had in years.  I was learning things about her.  Things that were hard for her, and things that stressed her.  I was more engaged with our kids, and our affection (in my opinion) was better than it had been in a long while.   Good will come.  I know.   All of this; the ups and downs, mixed messages and emotions were escalating, until...  One morning before school; in tears, she tells me that she is trying to find a way to say good bye to him.  I keep a straight face, but inside I am celebrating.  I am winning!  I will keep my wife!
Mini Bomb Drop 1.  That night after school, she tells me she has bought a ticket, and she will be leaving work/ school early the next day to fly out to see him for a four-day weekend.  What changed in 8 hours?  She has to see him, “to decide” if this is real.  Anger!  Pain!, Begging, Negotiating, Guilt tripping!  Anything I could think of.  We talked most of the night.  Praying.  I have not yet mentioned praying, but I had been praying since this all began.  I am a religious person, to a degree.  I don’t care for church, but I truly believe in God, and try to live my life for him and our kids.  So I prayed all day the next day, while waiting for her to come home.  Somehow I found some clarity.  When she finally did, she had a bag already packed and hidden in a little used closet, she had a taxi on the way.  Trying to make a quick exit.  She gave me a hand written letter; where she tried to apologize, and explain that she needed to do this for herself.  She hopes that I will someday understand, and IF this works out with him, that we can give the best of both of us to our children.  IF it doesn’t work out, she hopes somehow I will be able to forgive her.  Take her back?  All of this, SHE had to decide by seeing him in person.  At this point, I am done.  She has made her decision, and will not change her mind.  She is crossing my line! I tell her, if she leaves, she is not welcome back.  I am done covering for her.  I will not lie about this.  AND she needs to tell our kids WHAT she is doing and WHY.  If not, I will, when I pick them up from school this afternoon.  Pure venom on her face.  Rage.  Out the slamming door.  Ten minutes on the phone with him.  Back in a slamming door.  Canceled taxi.  Screaming, that she is not going.  How could she go? After I pulled this sh**?  She needs to go.  But now she can’t!  I am such an A**hole.  I took her choice away.  Sobbing.  Arguing.  Anger.  More slamming doors.  She finally leaves for a hotel.  She needs space.  She texted later to tell me her plane took off, but she was not on it.  She was in a hotel with a bottle of wine.  She will talk to me sometime.  I am winning!  I am happy!  She did not go!  I am winning!  Not knowing the hell that would continue. 
She came home two days later, and I am sure she did not leave town.  I am equally sure he did not come to her rescue.  From her phone usage, and saw a lot of data used while she was gone.  Obviously communicating with him.  After her return there was a lot of silence.  Some arguments, and much talking.  Even an aborted joint counseling session.  The tension was so thick.  But 3 or 4 days later, May 5th, Cinco de Mayo, she ended it with him.  “I am done.” She says.  “ Isn’t that what you want?  You win.  Now I need some time to grieve”.  Inside I am thinking; I did win!! I am so happy inside!  He is gone!  She is here!  I win! 
For weeks we barely spoke, and never mentioned this.  But I can handle it.  She is still here.  He isn’t.  We have time.  We have kids.  She will get over this.  All it takes is time, and I am patient.  Our relationship was frigid rigid for 5 or 6 weeks.  This ended on a family weekend trip out of town.  I had arranged a 2 bedroom suite for us.  (Nice plan by me)  After a family day at the hotel pool, a little dinner, and movies in the room.  The kids finally in their separate bedroom, and several glasses of wine later, we shut our door, and found each other.  I’m not saying it was the best ever, but I was SOOO excited.  She is still here.  He isn’t.  She is with me!  We were on our way back!  We even had another round early the next morning.  Life was so good!  She is so beautiful!  She is with me!  These feelings didn’t last long, though.  That phone.  Using that phone all the time.  Texting or Messaging?  I am trying to tell myself; it’s not him.  It’s something else.  It is innocent.  And it may have been.  But the trust was gone.  The insecurity I was feeling was deafening, overwhelming, and almost as painful as when I “knew” she was talking with him. 
The summer continued.  We were both trying.  Less phone usage.  We were friendly, and at times affectionate.  “I love you” was said and texted... both ways.  There was still tension, small talk was difficult, but we were working at it.
Mini Bomb Drop 2.  Late July, the phone business picked up one evening.  The next morning, MW was out early for a run.  When she returned, she was crying, and would not look me in the eye.  Later that day, she took the kids to a park with friends.  Obviously, suspicious, I checked her phone usage, and there were a number of texts between her and the friend she was supposed to be meeting.  There was about 2 hours of no activity, then several more texts to the friend.  During the same time, there was a huge packet of data usage.  When she walked in, I met her at the door.  I don’t remember exactly what I said, but she knew I knew.  We sat down away from our kids, and she immediately started crying, saying she was sorry.  He had reached out to “check on her” the previous evening.  They messaged back and forth.  And yes, she dropped the kids with our friend, while she parked and called him through FB.  But it “did not go well”  What does that mean I asked?  She said he is an a**, and they are done.  I’m mad.  We talk, she cries.  Finally we go to our separate corners.    The next day I tell her I love her but do not trust her.  She understands.  She needs time, and space.  Over the next several days all affection stops.  In a week, she tells me she can’t touch me, she can’t be touched by me.  And I can’t tell her I love her.  She can’t say it back, and she knows when she doesn’t; it kills me.  “So stop it.” She says.    She needs time. 
Life is moving in slow motion.  We’ve been doing therapy together, and she on her own. School goes back in session, and this year it’s easier on her.   We have been living like roommates.  We have fun, and occasionally laugh, there is no affection and no communication about us.  She has shut down as a wife.  Things seem to improve for a month in late October.  We go away for a weekend, just us.  We get along, but still no affection, and nothing serious to say.  Still, life is moving in slow motion.  Out for my birthday, dinner and a movie.  Nice night together.  Less tension, more laughs.  I ask to stay out later, but she is tired.  No affection, but a good night, in my mind.  Progress?  She is doing more therapy, a session almost every week.  Life is still STILL moving in slow motion.  Around Thanksgiving things seem to digress.  Short fuse, more irritable, fewer smiles. It seems something is bothering her.  But I am giving the requested space.  Life continues… in… slow… motion.
Mini Bomb Drop 3.  Two weeks after Thanksgiving, clearly something is bothering her.  We decide to talk.   She lets loose how her therapist says she needs to move out.  A Temporary Separation.  We argue, and I do everything wrong, AGAIN.  Each “reason” she brings up, I counter.  I tell her she doesn’t understand, we were making progress.  How can things take such a turn, when we were moving slowly forward?  If she would just try hard, like I have been.  Try Harder.  We table it until our next marriage counseling session. 
We went to our session, and she was congratulated by our counselor for making huge progress.  I don’t have a point of reference, I’m told.  She needs space, and time.  What the hell have I been giving her for the past 10 months??  It is decided she will not move out until after the Holidays.  “For the kids” 
We leave. 
Now we have made it through the Holidays.  What a terrible two weeks.  Faking things as we celebrated with family and friends.  Talking and laughing about past Christmases, and what the future holds.  All the while, my heart is broken to bits.  We have not told anyone else; but we plan to tell the kids this week, and MW is planning to move out before the weekend. 
After finding the Hero’s Spouse, things are making so much sense.  I agree, I identify, Yes, that is EXACTLY what she is doing.  I can see it now!!  Mid Life Crisis! 

Offline OldPilot

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12893
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 11:02:19 AM »
Welcome to the Board

You are in a good place.
Your H/W  is on his/her own journey.
You can not do anything to control this trip.
Come here and read or vent, we will listen.
Give your H/W space  he/she needs to heal himself/herself.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Your need to start working on you.
There is nothing that you can do to help your H/W.

He/She has given you a gift.
It is time!!

Use the time wisely to make yourself a better person.
Look in the mirror to see what it is that you can improve.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
GAL.

Read some books on depression. Both for yourself! And for H/W.
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

Read the resources from this site.
The links that are in my signature.

Detach. - The single most important thing you can do

The detach link and HB's 6 stages of MLC(rewritten from Jim Conway) located in the resources above.

Developing Detachment
http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforcontrolissues/developdetachment.html

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_detach.html

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/

Do you want a mentor?

Please make a post that says so and
If so one will be assigned shortly.

Keep posting and asking questions and we will try to answer them.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Offline Airmid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4161
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 11:28:08 AM »
Hello Opt.

I am sorry you are here but you have found a good place with a lot of support.

I think by now you realize - logic will not prevail in this situation.
I  had a 20 year marriage (still married) until my H reconnected with the "woman he thought he loved in high school" on FB.

I hate FB.

The short story is - Just dropped the bomb on me and moved out 28 days later to the OW.  Became a person I could hardly recognize (turned into the iceman).
A few contacts with my new Alien husband were fruitless.
He asked for a divorce last Christmas - but has yet to do anything about it.

Here is the 180 list that helped me in the beginning - I hope you find it useful.
Post as often as you need to - people are willing to help and support you.

The 180

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back.  Don’t always be so available…for anything!  Your spouse will notice.  More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment.  Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper.  No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER.  No show of temper!  Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control.  YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).  In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.  Hear what it is that they are saying!  Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation.  No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you.  Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.  It’s not always about you!  More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see.  Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable.  Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid.  Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.  It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent!  It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person.  This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual.  Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life.  Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.

Michelle Werner-Davis. Divorce Busting
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 06:32:57 AM by xyzcf »

Offline jjal

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 11:39:46 AM »
Read the 180 list several times, then employ it because it will save your sanity.

Post here, lots. All of us have similar stories.
Me - Mid 40's
W - Mid 40's
Married 20
No kids
BD - 7/2015
ILYB...
Moved out 2 days later
Suspect EA

Offline Thunder

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22159
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 05:15:25 PM »
Opt,

I'm sorry you are going through this but as you can see your story in not much different than most on this site.

Once their crisis starts you have no control over what they do.

Honestly from one who has been through this for 5 years you can not change them, you can not stop them and you can not reason with them.  They go into their own little fantasy world and hear nothing.

You may as well be invisible.

All I can offer is try to detach from her.  As hard as that is, it is what is the best for you.  She needs you to give her space and just be friendly and light.  No relationship talks, no questions.

Just get on with your life and let her see you are not wasting time waiting around for her.  Do things without her.  Call some friends and make plans for the evening.  Have some fun.
She needs to miss you and think you are moving on without her.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Split open and melt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1066
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 01:52:44 AM »
Hello Optimus,
Welcome to the forum. Wow that was some first post recounting the last 10 months of hell you've been through. You've found a place where everyone can relate to your story. I'm sorry.

It sounds like you have done quite a bit of self reflection through this terrible experience. And I'm impressed with how brutally honest with yourself you sound in your post. Congrats, you are on the right track. As your avatar implys you are also optimistic, and that shows in your story. You will learn to appreciate the biggest silver lining through this mess. It's the growth we experience as individuals that comes through the mirror work which MLC requires of us, the LBS. No matter how bad things get with your W (and they can get worse), try not to lose sight on the fact that you will come out a better man through this. With our without your wife you will be the winner.

You may be new to this site but you are clearly not new to the trials of an MLC spouse, and it seems like you have processed much of the different phases of grief that come with it. I'm sure this past 10 months has seemed like an eternity. But as you will discover if you dig in to the articles and stories from other forum members, that you are still early on in this process. To me it sounds like your W is early into the first phase of MLC which is Replay. And this period can last a couple years at best.

You've recieved some good advice already, and if you continue to post you will receive more. You have been holding on tight to the marriage, fighting to win a battle that in reality has nothing to do with you, or the OM. This journey your wife is on is her path alone to follow. You did not cause it, and it's not your fault. No matter what she says to you, you must repeat that mantra to yourself. I'm not saying that you are free from accountability. You know your part, you've clearly worked on improving yourself. And that's the growth I was mentioning above. But that's your own work, what she is going through is not about you.

As others say above, the next phase for you is focusing on Detachment. Detachment is the very first Standing action necessary if you hope to see your wife return. It's counter intuitive as you want to hang on, your instincts tell you to hang on tight to save your marriage and keep the family together. There in lies the rub...like a bird in hand, if you hope to see it fly back to you, you must be willing to let go.

Detachment is hard as hell and it takes time. It's hard to think about Time as a gift, as Old Pilot states above. But as you detach you will gain a new perspective and a new appreciation for that time. Detachment and the 180 list isn't a way to "win her back." Detachment is first and foremost for yourself. For your own mental health, so that you can be the best man you can be for your children. This will be nearly impossible if you remain focused on your W and the situation with the OM. 

One of the first steps toward detaching is to accept and understand that this isn't about the OM either. He is merely a symptom of her dis-ease. It could be anyone. Don't give him power by making this about him. Once I was able to let go of my fixation on the OM my situation improved dramatically.

I'm not gunna sugarcoat it, you are facing a hard road ahead. I know it seems like you've been through the worst, but it can and likely will get worse with your W before it gets better. But you are much more prepared now, you are stronger, you have grieved...and will grieve more, but you have done a lot of work toward healing already and will be able to handle what she throws at you next with dignity and grace.

The best motivational advice I ever recieved on this forum was something like this: Right now you have the opportunity and the challenge of demonstrating to your children that a great man stands in the face of adversity with his chin held high, unwavering in his love and spirit. It is the greatest lesson you may ever pass onto them. It's our duty to them as fathers. Our children have two important wants and needs. They want to see you happy, they need to feel reassured that they will be loved no matter what. So let go of her, and look out for you so you can take care of those kids and give them what they will need through this. As I'm sure you are well aware, you only have a finite amount of energy, your energy is wasted trying to fix your W or win a competion with the OM. She is feeding off your energy, she will suck it right out of you if you allow it.  Whatever you can muster through the day...it should be directed in three places, your healing and growth, your kids, and your work.

We are here to help, and we'll be here. Keep reading into the articles, and I hope you continue to lean on us. You won't find a much better group of people out there who share in your pain, who empathize with the struggles you face every day. Between us we have truly seen it all, we've made every mistake, many of us have seen our spouses come out of the tunnel of MLC and have reconciled, and the wealth of knowledge and compassion contained within these threads is immeasurable. There is hope. At the same time we will be sure to hit you with a 2x4 here and there when it's needed, it's for your own good. ;)

(((Hugs))) Split
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 02:22:12 AM by Split open and melt »
Surrender to the Flow

Together- 15yrs /  Married-11yrs
Two Daughters 5 + 6
BD 10/25/13
Divorced as of 4/1/14

Offline MeNow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7383
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 03:33:10 AM »
Gonna offer up my opinion. Any thoughts about exposing the affair? Do you have his number? Can you contact his W?

Will it stop them I doubt it. It may pause them a bit and maybe give them a dose of conviction in the future.

If she goes off by herself, this thing will grow. They will eventually meet. The best time is now to nip this in the bud, if that is possible.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 07:59:35 AM »
Thank you all.  This is hard!  I guess you all know that!
We've told our children that she is moving out for a while.  She did most of the talking, and focused on her Bi-Polar.  Not sure if this was the right direction, but I did not need my young kids to learn that Mommy had an EA with another man while going through a MLC.  If that comes out down the road, so be it.  But for now, the shock of her leaving is bad enough.  Having said that, it seemed harder to me, then anyone else.  There were a few questions, like "is this contagious, or are you going to die?"  We both re-assured our kids, that she will not die, and we are watching them very closely.  If they are having any issues, we will work with them, to keep them safe and happy.  It's funny, it seems to have barely fazed them.  It's almost like I'm the only one who cares she is leaving, though I know that is not true.
Tonight after work, I am taking the kids to dinner, while MW packs and leaves.  Tomorrow is my day!  Not sure what we will do, but we are going to have some fun.  Sunday MW wants to take them to her hotel; so they can see where she will be staying, and that she will be OK.  They will be back home with me for dinner.
Over all, we are being extremely friendly through this.   It is killing me, as I am so mad that she would do this to her own kids.  But I am standing strong for them.
In the many posts I've read, there is very few if any comments about the MLCer seeing a therapist, on their own.    MW is seeing a therapist who is working with her using EMDR Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.  Does anyone have experience with this.  Is this a good sign, a bad sign, or does it even matter?

Offline OldPilot

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12893
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 09:36:36 AM »
There were a few questions, like "is this contagious, or are you going to die?"  We both re-assured our kids, that she will not die, and we are watching them very closely.

I am going to speak to the Bi-Polar issue as My mother and my daughter are bi-polar.
I never thought my XW was, however I decided during all these crisis's that she was depressed.
Also it has been revealed to me that my ex has bipolar history in her cousins and Uncle.

My mothers bipolar was very severe and when she arrived at mid-life it became much more severe.
I believe that she had an MLC of sorts based on her behavior, she divorced my father, and had wild spending and crazy behavior, of course much have that has never changed since and maybe is just
from her bipolar.

So I do believe that bi-polar can be somewhat genetic and - yes it is possible that your children
could have it some time in the future.
I would say when they get their hormones and lose their hormones,
go to college, or have children (if girls).

My daughter is refusing to have children since she would need to go off of her meds during the pregnancy.

As far as EMDR, I have no clue.
Is your wife staying on her meds?

Offline scooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 09:43:55 AM »
OP360 I am sorry your W doesn't appreciate a loving and loyal H. I agree with everyone on here you must let her think you are moving on without her and it is scary and sad the thought of living without them.  I am in the same situation regarding the same time frame and realize now that my clinging is making it easier for my H to run.

Living well and helping your children flourish will be the best medicine for her.  Your children will and can be your best distraction for you and it will help them also.

Hugs and stay strong.
“If you let go a little, you will have a little peace. If you let go a lot, you will have a lot of peace.” ~Ajahn Chah

Offline Songanddance

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5669
  • Gender: Female
  • Strength and honour are her clothing;
Re: How can she
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 11:35:09 AM »
Quote
MW is seeing a therapist who is working with her using EMDR Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.  Does anyone have experience with this.  Is this a good sign, a bad sign, or does it even matter?

Me _ I have been EMDRd twice!   It is fantastic but only if you are completely honest and in touch with your feelings.  I doubt that your W who is in MLC will actually know how to be honest anymore.

EMDR is where the therapist takes you through a memory or series of linked memories and using her fingers "waving" purposefully in your face as you recall the memory - when the memory onion has been peeled so to speak that is what the therapist focuses in on and re-frames that memory.

Let me explain with my first experience fo EMDR. 

I was in bits after BD and my T diagnosed me with PTSD.  She took me back to my childhood. I had to sit very still with my hands on my knees - straight but relaxed back and then focus my eyes completely on her index finger. As I recounted memories in answer to her questions she moved the finger in diagonals and straight lines but always within my eyeline so I never looked down or sideways. 
I remembered my dad dying - he was in hospital having had a massive stroke. I was with him; and he suddenly had breathing difficulties. I was literally shoved to one side and ushered into a room even though I insisted that if he was dying I wanted to be with him. The doctors ignored me and my dad died on his own 10 mins later.

Prior to this - Dad woke up and grunted at me. He reached his hand out - I took it and he squeezed my hand very hard. Then he went into breathing difficulties. For the next 16 year I always cried at that memory - couldn't get over it and felt so angry.   

My T stopped me at this point because I was crying so hard but still trying to follow her fingers.
She asked me " What do you think your dad was trying to say when he squeezed your hand?"
Me " I'd like to think he was saying goodbye"
My T " What did you call your dad and did he have a nickname for you?"
Me  "yes " and I told her.

She then asked me to repeat this phrase three times as she zoomed her fingers right toward my face as if she was going to poke my eyes out.  " Daddy and nickname said goodbye"

At the end of this I was exhausted but later that day  I remembered that memory again and this time for the first time in 16 years I felt closure and a massive grin on my face. Even now when I remember this, I smile because I have healed and had closure and have the closest connection to my darling dad.


However EMDR requires absolute openness and total honesty - that may not be possible with an MLCer and it is also subjective as to what memory the therapist digs out.

Fingers crossed for you OPT.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:36:51 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline Watcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4430
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2016, 07:19:10 AM »
Hi Optimus360,

My BD was July 2015 and it so mirrors what you are going through. I found out via checking on my 15yr old son's computer to keep him out of trouble. Wham hit by a 2x4. Wife and her EA exposed. After all the denials and leaving our marital home she finally came clean in Oct.

This man is her soulmate, they are really meant to be. I am in the way and ruining her happiness. She has come back and then I had to move out. She has had moments of clarity and been really honest with me since things fell apart. ( she blamed me for ruining the EA) LOL. She describes the OM as a magnet. There is nothing that she can do from being pulled to him. She thinks of him all the time, even during intimacy with me, hence that's not helping her. She feels that she is cheating on him.

She has to go complete no contact, as my wife has with him. There is a brutal affair withdrawal that you will definitely notice. Hers lasted 8 weeks. Straight to bed from work, no interaction with anyone, no eating, and severe weight loss. It helped that OM broke it off with her.

My DR says the dopamine high withdrawal is similar to that of a drug addict. As long as contact stops, recovery is usually 6-9 months from the EA. In my case I have to stop being intimate with her because I know what she is using it for and its really not helping the situation.

Im only 7 months into this, goto a pyschiatrist and marriage counselor,  take medication for anxiety,  and am waiting for the day that this EA is really over. One day at a time.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 06:31:05 AM »
Sorry I have not been here in a while.  Strange and hard two weeks.  MW left over a week ago.  Kids staying in the house with me.  She picks them each day for school, and drops home to me after.  Kids seem to be taking things pretty well.  Our Little guy (6 yrs) is kind of clingy, and cries more then normal, but not to much else to report.  I think the dog misses her more than anyone.
Catching up on a couple of notes from before.
1)   Yes, she is taking her meds.  Ant-Depression, Mood Stabilizers, and Xanax for anxiety. 
2)   Yes, we are attending marriage counseling together.  Not sure if that is helping or not. 
3)   She continues to see a therapist preforming EMDR Sessions, on her own. 
4)   Yes, I have seen a therapist as well, who is very focused on her family history and relationships.  Her parents are divorced, since she was 13 yrs.  Father cheated on Mother, and mother kicked him out.  MW think she has a better relationship with Father, since the divorce.  This is laughable, but this is what she thinks.

I am quite mixed as we move along.  I am standing, and working on my strength.  I am trying to reassure the kids, while maintaining the household.  All new to me.  I am also VERY Angry.  Hurt.  And Disappointed.  I know this is a disease, and we both want her to get better.  But, my anger and resentment for her walking out away from her family is growing each day.  When she drives away, I actually feel relief and some sort of peace.  I don’t like this, because I don’t want to feel like I want out of this.  I want MW back, but not the MLCer Monster wife.
As we go day to day, I feel like she is cake eating.  Still involved with the kids and even coming by to watch sports one night last week.  When she is around, we are getting along just fine.  Although, I feel like eggshells the whole time.  But she still gets in her car and drives off to the hotel for the night.  Then back again in the morning. 
Part of me wants to set up boundaries.  If she wants to be away, clear her mind, then stay away. 
Obviously, I want her to maintain her relationship with our kids.  Plus with her teaching at their school, I can’t and don’t want to limit her contact with them.
I know she can’t stay in a hotel forever.  I feel like something will be changing soon.  A decision.  Either she makes a more permanent move on her own, or she wants to come back home.  Either way, I get more of a say in things at that time, since I can or cannot let her come home.  Based on her attitude and desires.  I need to be mindful of the kids.  I don't want them hurt by her leaving again and again.  If she moves to an apartment, then I can add boundaries, since she is changing the dynamics of the relationship.
But for now I am waiting, which is a killer. 

Offline scooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 06:25:54 PM »
Optimus360, yes waiting is painful I have felt the same way. My H moved out the day after Christmas and here I am just waiting for his return even though he shows no signs of it.  My bomb drop was 9 months ago but he never really left until now.  It has gone down hill since the middle of December.  Each day that I am alone in this house (my kids are grown) I do grow a little stronger and ask myself am I ready to make a move.  I am putting the house up for sale as one step and my next step would be legal separation which they say is a must for yourself.

Your fortunate to have you kids to keep your mind off of things. Sorry that you all have to go through this. I wish there was a fast cure.

thanks for sharing the journey
“If you let go a little, you will have a little peace. If you let go a lot, you will have a lot of peace.” ~Ajahn Chah

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2016, 03:30:56 AM »
I fell hard yesterday.  She doesn’t know it.  But I let the snakes in my head get ahold of me, and I could not get them out.
MW is still out of the house, and in fact out on a “Road Trip” to clear her mind.  This was something that her therapist had suggested.  Get away from work, the family, and all the other things in her life.  Take some alone time.  Clear the brain.  I’m not entirely sure how that is different from what she has been doing, living in a hotel alone and away from us, her family?  But I guess to be away from work, and all, may be good?
She left after work on Tuesday.  And leading up to that, we had been getting along quite well.  She had come over for a football game on Sunday, after spending most of the day before together with the family.  Then taking the kids to dinner Monday.  Tuesday she went completely dark, and did not call the kids until late Wednesday evening, to say she was OK.  She asked to speak with me too, and she sounded great on the phone.  I’ve read on different posts, that sometimes MLCers actually take on different personas and different voices, in different stages.  I could swear her voice was more like when we first met.  Higher pitched and very… almost bubbly.   So even though I had found myself quite angry with her, for not calling the kids at all Tuesday, I was encouraged to hear her in such good spirits.  Confusing.
Yesterday, somehow I let my brain go to the EA she had last year, and realized that JAN 27 was an anniversary for them.  The first time they were together, 20 years ago.  Certainly not a coincidence that she is out on this road trip that very date.  Even though I believe their relationship to be over.  The issues we are having are about her MLC, and not him.  In my core I know this, but I still had a pretty crushing day and evening.  Thinking, just thinking.  I put a good face on for the kids; made them one of their favorite dinners, and we played and read before bedtime.  Still, the emptiness, that I have been avoiding for a while now, is back, and so strong.
I know this will pass, and maybe I’ve set myself up for this, by getting my hopes up, between the pleasant weekend, and the upbeat conversations on the phone.  I need to drop this, but I am having trouble letting it go.  Maybe I neeeeed to go off, and clear my head too.  But one of us has to stay strong and keep this family together.  So I’m writing down my feelings here instead.

Offline Thunder

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22159
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2016, 04:57:15 AM »
Opt,

One of the hardest things to do is have no expectations.  None.

You find every time you talk to them and they seem happy to hear from you...you start getting expectations.  Or you see them and their happy around you those darn expectations start again.

I think after you've been at this for a long time you finally get that they are not going to change for a long time, if ever.

Then it gets easier.  Like you're finally off the rollercoaster ride.
The best advice I can give you is to hold hope in your heart but live "as if" she is not coming back.  She may not.

If she doesn't, you're ahead of the game.  If she does you will be in a better place to make your relationship work.
For now just make your life the best it can be.

btw, you are a great dad.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2016, 06:49:28 AM »
Looking for thoughts on my 180.

Let me start by saying, MW came home over the weekend!  Yes, very happy, but trying to keep my guard up… Cautiously Optimistic!  She came home Saturday morning, came to me and simply asked if she could come home.  I asked if that is what she really wants.  Yes, she said. 
I said that her coming home means something.  Not that we are fixed, but that we are both committed to getting there.  She said yes, and almost had tears in her eyes.  The rest of the day was very nice.  Busy with kids activities/ sports and a neighborhood get together after dinner, which we cooked together!  I have not asked a thing about her roadtrip, and I only told her that I was available if she wanted to talk about things.  But I’d give her the space if she did not. 
Yesterday, we found ourselves falling back into our previous roles.  I offered to help her with the house and kids preparations for the week, but each time was told she had it.  By the end of the day, I felt her annoyance with me. 
So here is where I am; I want to ease her stress around the house, with her duties, which of course I took over 100% while she was gone.  I still want to practice the 180, give her space, and focus on myself and my kids.  I am not sure how to do both?

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2016, 06:55:04 AM »
In my opinion don't help her. Do your part around the house, not hers. She made a ig step by coming home. Don't pressure her for more. Let her settle and gain energy for the next step.
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2016, 05:38:25 AM »
Last weekend, my D9 said she did not want a Polar Pop from Circle K, because she did not want  to, "catch Bi-Polar like Mommy." 
Uhg!  Heart breaking!

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2016, 06:20:40 AM »
I can relate to this SO well...

MLCW is still at home until next Monday when the moving company comes (so you are way ahead on that score if she is wanting to return) to get her and the kids'stuff that she is taking to her new apartment and on Ash Wednesday, we will close on the sale of our house. Then we will have hit the point of no return but I digress....

We alternate which kid we bring to bed at night and yesterday was my night with D-5. The ritual is to brush teeth, put on jammies, then 10 minutes of story time and 10 minutes of snuggle time.... Last night, just as she was falling asleep, D-5 started crying and said "Daddy, I want to stay with you"  :'(  In the meantime, I hear an argument between MLCW and S8 but couldn't make out details but i can hear S-8 is crying... I went downstairs just in time to hear her tell him "Once we get moved, we will all be happier.. "

Kids don't have the filter between brain and mouth that we adults do... And sometimes what comes out tears ones heart out...  :'(
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2016, 10:20:44 AM »
There is a lot I can handle.  People can fall in and out of love... and I get that.  But the kids are different.  How can their feeling not matter to MLCer?  And how can I explain how things are happening, and why??

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2016, 02:03:17 AM »
There is a lot I can handle.  People can fall in and out of love... and I get that.  But the kids are different.  How can their feeling not matter to MLCer?  And how can I explain how things are happening, and why??

This is a struggle I have as well....

First though, to the MLC'er NOTHING matters except a (by the MLC'er) path to the relief from the overwhelming feelings of confusion, pain, and guilt and anyone that gets in the way of that supposed "relief" is going to be roadkill on the highway into the Tunnel.

As for talking to the kids, D-5 doesn't get the whole thing yet. She knows there is some major upheaval in the works but exactly what it entails, she's not quite sure. When she gets taken out of her Kindergarten (where she has been for nearly 3 years) and gets put into a different one with a different operational concept that is very small, I think that there will be he|| to pay. S8 is fully aware of what's happening and is taking it hard. He is getting better but, at the Parent-Teacher conference yesterday (I'm going to rant about that on my own thread), his teacher said that we seemed to be starting to recover a bit. MLCW said something to the effect "Well, it will help him be a stronger person in the end... "  ???  ::)

What I have been doing with S is that, when he wants to talk about it, I am VERY careful not to be derogatory or insulting or critical about Mom to him, regardless of how I am really feeling at the moment. The last thing in the world that S needs at the moment is a Father who talks trash about his Mom, even if she is being a total wonk. PLUS, be aware that whatever you DO say WILL get back to W at some point. I was VERY annoyed last night because it was getting late, I had to work this morning but my MLCW and the kids have the day off to take care of the paperwork to get my son moved from the school where he is now to the one int eh town where they will live as of next Monday. Normally, we start the evening ritual at 19:00 but, because we were out a bit later (another rant on y thread coming), we didn't get home until nearly 20:00 and MLCW goes up and locks herself int eh bathroom for nearly an hour. I needed to get the kids teeth brushed so I can get them to bed, get the dog walked and get to bed myself and such and I commented that I was annoyed because she had done that. As soon as she came out, S told her that I was mad and of course, she came and asked if I was mad...  :-X So... the Navy principle of "Loose Lips Sink Ships" definitely applies.

I haven't hesitated to tell S that this is NOT what I want but I always follow it with the fact that I am STILL his father and NOTHING and NO ONE will change that... EVER. Depending on the arrangements that you have with your MLCW in terms of seeing the kids, when, where, how much time, etc., you will have the "opportunity" to go into flame mode... DON'T!  Consider that the kids are really torn between 2 parents now so it is ALWAYS better to take the high road in this case and be the loving caring father that they know. The MLC'er is going to vacillate between any number of different moods at a speed which may approach Warp 8 so the kids will need some stability.

I personally do not advocate lying to them because, even small kids can tell when a duck is a duck and telling them it's a dog is NOT going to work but by avoiding "the Blame Game" and being true to yourself, you can answer their questions honestly in a way that they can understand, i. e. "Mommy is having a very difficult time. She probably feels like her head is full of spiderwebs (or cotton candy or cotton balls, whatever works for your kids) and she thinks that being apart will help her to clean them up." It really depends on the ages of your kids and their questions....

I hope that we, as fathers, can be the stable influence that our kids need at this time - I know we can but ti is not easy.  Sounds to me though like you are doing a bang-up job of it <tip of the hat>... Reassuring them that they will be OK, making sure they know they are loved by both of you, even if she can't really show it at the moment,  and handling the day-to-day life.... They DO get that part very well.... and it will make your relationship with them stronger... My MLCW will move out with the kids on Monday and my son is already more open and honest with me than he used to be....
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2016, 06:11:39 AM »
Today is one year since Bomb Drop.  My brain feels like an atom from the cartoons; with the electrons running crazy fast circles around the center.   

Offline scooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2016, 08:20:03 PM »
My year BD is next week.  I think we are still considered newbies, but it doesn't feel like it. I think I need a vacation.
“If you let go a little, you will have a little peace. If you let go a lot, you will have a lot of peace.” ~Ajahn Chah

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2016, 07:22:14 AM »
A vacation.  Yes!
I am traveling this week, and away from the house.  Not a vacation, but a busy work week.  Feeling good to have some space, as I am sure she is too.  Also, feeling empty, as I pack to leave.
 

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2016, 04:15:15 AM »
My year BD is next week.  I think we are still considered newbies, but it doesn't feel like it. I think I need a vacation.

I just passed 2 MONTHS ABD and feel like I need a vacation... Of course, I haven't HAD a real vacation in nearly 2 years so that might be why... I have taken time off over Easter but that will be consumed with the kids and getting my apartment in order (I do NOT expect to be done before summer with everything I want to do)
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline scooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2016, 06:18:17 PM »
Happy Vacation time to you all as soon as you can possibly do it, we all deserve it.   8) 8)
“If you let go a little, you will have a little peace. If you let go a lot, you will have a lot of peace.” ~Ajahn Chah

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2016, 08:06:07 AM »
It’s been a couple of months since I’ve written anything here.  Probably because I am being cautiously optimistic.  Maybe I don’t want to jinx anything.
Since MW came home, we are doing OK.  There are still some hard days, and not much talking; about this. 
At one point she did apologize and asked why I even want her back?  I was taken back.  Afterall, that is what I had been dying to hear. 
Another time she said she had come home for the kids and me, not for her.  Now she says that she is working on being happy.  She says she needs to work on herself before she can work on us.  I’m not sure what that means, but I’ll take it for now. Things are not perfect.  She is trying.  We are going day to day, and both working at it. 
For me, the wounds are still fresh, exposed and hurting.  Trust is hard.  I still can’t forget what she has put us through. 
Sometimes we will have a good day, it helps me push the past 16 months further down into the past. 
The real reason I am writing here, is give the others on this forum some encouragement!  When I look back to where I was one year ago today, I am happy!  We are making progress.  I hope you can too!

Offline Ready2Transform

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7746
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2016, 01:33:20 PM »
Great news, Optimus! I've heard from others here that it can take several years before everyone exhales and things feel normal again. Sounds healthy. Her desire to work on herself also sounds very good. Praying for you!
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2016, 06:06:08 AM »
Yes.  Thank you.  Praying!!  My hesitation is
based on the relatively short time frame. But there seems to be a real desire on her part.  She knows she is suffering with Bi Polar.  But she loves her kids, and doesn't want to be with out them.  Even part time.
I am walking that thin line between real joy, and fear of another heartbreak.  I tried to keep my walls up, but I can't stop loving her.
I am no longer in fear of the OP.  They are finished!  My fear is that she will give up.  The path is hard work, and with MLC, or Bi Polar, I worry she will once again go into the fog, and lose momentum. 
I don't want to go through this again, and I need to protect my kids.

Offline Ready2Transform

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7746
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2016, 04:22:42 PM »
Is she currently in any sort of treatment for the bipolar? On the plus side, if it was a manic episode, the length isn't as much of an issue. But the down side, of course, is that it is unlikely to resolve on its own without management that involves help from a specialist, which could lead to another episode.  My xH was diagnosed in 2010 but let treatment. I believe his breakdown could be a combination of MLC/drug induced mania, but he's shown no sign of slowing down yet.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2016, 06:53:32 AM »
The treatment is tricky.  Yes, she has been seeing professionals for many years.  She is on meds for depression, mood stability, and anxiety.  When BD happened a year ago, I begged her to switch medication, and try a new Doctor/ Nurse Practitioner.  She refused. 
Now that she is back home, she is trying to make things work (encouraged!!).  This includes her changing doctor and meds.  (Yeah!)  By the way, this was her own decision this time.  (Double Yeah!!)   
Currently, she is reducing her meds.  She doesn’t want to start another medication with residual of the current meds in her system.  In the past it has taken weeks to get the dosages right.  She doesn’t want to work against the original meds, while trying to find the right amount of the new.  Makes sense to me, but I’m no doctor.  I do worry that she will either go into mania or fall into a deeper depression while reducing her current meds.  She has promised to listen to me, as we progress through this journey.  I can only hope and pray that she will follow through.  Like most, she doesn’t like the way the meds make her feel.  But when she is stable, she understands that the alternative could be detrimental to everyone in her life.  It’s when she is flying high, that she doesn’t seem to care. 
I hope this time will be different.
She has stopped the EMDR treatments.  This I am happy with.  It is my opinion that the EMDR therapist was not a proponent of marriage.  I believe she was encouraged by this therapist to leave our home in January.  When MW decided to come back, this therapist was critical, saying she had not taken enough time for herself.  Luckily for us, MW did not respond well to this, and has discontinued seeing this person.
Also, we have stopped seeing our marriage/ couples counselor.  I am mixed about this…
Each time we met with the counselor, we left more upset with each other.  Things are definitely smoother with-out these visits.
However, there is nearly no discussion of the relationship, the past 18 months, her return, or our reconciliation.  We are simply living day to day.  I’m giving her the space and time she has requested.
I am working very hard to fly above her turbulence, take care of our kids, and myself; while being as supportive as I can.

Offline Thunder

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22159
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2016, 07:38:47 AM »
Sounds good Opt,

Yes, just allow her to get completely out of the tunnel before you ask any questions. 
Hopefully she will give you some answers down the road when she is feeling remorse for what she did.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Watcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4430
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2016, 08:19:53 AM »
Hi Optimus,

I see a lot to be encouraged about. With regards to MC, I just stopped going to mine. I found myself angry after each session and I was going by myself. LOL... if my W wants the counseling, I believe she will find it. I do not believe they are ready for it. I think its best you stopped going. Let her decide when she is ready.

Thunder- is remorse the indicator that they are exiting the tunnel. I have seen no remorse, just wondering.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2016, 06:51:35 AM »
The summer was very difficult.  So far, the fall has been worse.
As I mentioned in my last post, MW decided to wean off of her antidepressant medication.  At the time, this was so she could start another med, with a clean system.  I was happy for this positive change.  Well, the plan didn’t quite work out.  She got off of her meds alright.  But in short order, the mood swings returned.  She was irritable with everyone.  Nothing was right, or good enough.  On the few occasions that I would try to console her, or discuss what she was feeling, she would tell me how much she wants to leave.  “Just let me go”, is what she would say.  When I tried to encourage her to get back on meds, (or start new meds) she says she is feeling fine.  She doesn’t need them, and she will know when it's time for them. 
Finally, about a two months ago, I called her bluff.  If you want to go, then go.  If you don’t want to be here, then go be somewhere else.  One of the hardest things I have ever had to do/ say in my life. 
She has not left.  But we went for about 4-5 weeks barely even talking.  So much tension in the house.  Not healthy for anyone.  One morning she asked for us to return to marriage counseling.  Obviously I agreed.  When we finally got an appointment, she was as negative and discouraging as ever.  Saying all she wants to is leave and have her own little life with the kids.  She knows I’m a good man, and that I deserve better.  But she doesn’t want to be here, with me.   Our counselor even pointed out the changes in our interaction, and how this coincided with her stopping her meds.  She defended that, by saying things were not better over the spring.  In-fact things have been EXACTLY the same since she tried to run off over a year ago.  She will not even acknowledge her return in February when she apologized and pledged to work on things.  She doesn’t remember or acknowledge the positive efforts from the spring.  It seems like it never happened in her world.  She also refuses to see, that all of her relationships and interactions are more difficult now, with no medication.  She is short with our children, work is worried about her stress level, she is pushing her friends away.  Pushing me away.  She has lost interest in everything she used to love, except her work and our kids.   In both cases, she is over compensating.  She doesn’t see it.  In her words, none of this is her doing.  And she is feeling fine.  She has been to see two counselors (other than our MC), and according to her, neither of them liked her. 
From my side, I am still standing.  I believe this is temporary.  And I am continuing to pray for her, and for us.  I am working on my detachment.  But I’m not sure how well I am doing?  I have been focusing on myself, through exercise, eating better, work, and spending time with friends.  Giving us both well needed space.  All of this has brought a little peace, yet I am the one who is missing out.  When I travel for business, or get out with friends, I am missing out on my kids.  She is so involved with them through school, and after school activities.  For me to give her space, usually means space from my kids, too. 
Clearly there is no affection between us either.  That stopped over the summer, too.  This is not how I want to live.  I am trying to have faith that things will get better, again.  But, I am wondering how long can I be strong?  We have another MC appointment in a week.  Wish us luck, and prayers.

Online gman242

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1954
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2016, 08:24:07 AM »
Sounds a lot like my wife, PTSD and everything!!

Referring back to your initial post, I caught my wife texting several men and skpying one of them from the internet. I had made a fake account on one of the programs she was using (after she told me she would stop) and sent her a text and she was in the bathroom at the time and she responded, quite eagerly. I confronted her when she came out of the bathroom and she double over and let the phone drop from her hand. From her whole position, the crook of her arm, it was like watching a needle hit the floor after she just had been caught shooting up. I said to her you told me you stopped and she said "I said I would, not I did".

I was extremely angry with her, but at that moment (and through smaller successive moments) I also realized how deep of an issue she had and that she was being held captive by it. Your wife was probably suffering depression and she seemed normal to you because she was getting "high" from talking to this man and that was just enough to get her to feeling normal.

The reason it centers around men is I bet in your wife's history she has an issue with her father, possibly being absent or emotionally unavailable for her. She fears being abandoned by men, so she tries to attract them, rides out the honeymoon period and then moves on to another one before she can be hurt. I bet if you did some deep thinking, you'd find that there was always a guy friend (or friends from high school, work etc), a guy at the grocery store etc that she always talked to.

One thing I will tell you is that she does love you; she saw something in you that made her feel complete. But at the same time, she feels broken and wants to spare you any pain, either by wanting to leave, separating, telling you to date other people or just by withdrawing. I've had the same journey with my wife and sincerely wish you all the best and please feel free to lean on me / the forum if you need to.

It's up to you if you want to stand or not, nobody can make that decision for you. Read up on it along with GAL, detaching and the 180. The sooner you work on those, the better. All you or anyone else can tell you is that it just takes time.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 08:27:35 AM by gman242 »

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2016, 08:31:39 AM »
Thanks gman, that's a point of view I never considered.
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2016, 05:08:14 AM »
G Man.  Thx for the note.  I find comfort in your thoughts that she does love me, and wants to spare me some of the pain. I only wish she would let me help her, rather than pushing away.
You are dead on regarding her relationship with her father.  Her parents were divorced when she was 12 (Same age as our oldest.  coincidence??)  Her dad started seeing another woman right at the time of the divorce, they are still together 30 plus years later.  OW may have been a factor, but details are fuzzy.  Her dad is a quiet man, who keeps to himself.  MW worships him, and he barely responds.  He will like all her posts on FB, but they have not talked in over a year.  When she calls home, she will talk to his OW.  He will not get on the phone.  Completely emotionally unavailable.
Regarding other men throughout our relationship.  hmm, not sure.  There has never been a special friend or guy, except me.  That was part of the pain at BD.  We were always quite close and flirty.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2016, 06:28:14 AM »
Why do they drag our hearts around?
MW and I went to MC last month, and walked out feel worse the ever.  She is so negative and unavailable.  The counselor asked what each of us had done in the past month to help our relationship.  I told how I’ve been giving her more “space”, by traveling and/or being more social outside of the house.  When it was her turn, she had nothing to say.  No words.  She sat starring into space, and finally started crying.  Nearly no contact after the appointment, for three or four days.  I was out for work, and she was involved with the kids.  To bed early, and up and out by 6:30am.
The following two weeks have been a little softer with her.  Some small talk and a neighborhood party or two, where we attended together, but immediately ended up on opposite sides of the rooms.
Yesterday was my birthday.  I was out for work overnight, and she had my kids call 1st thing to wish me Happy Birthday.  Very nice.  She did not even get on the phone herself.  Sad.  When I returned home last night, she, and the kids had my favorite meal, a nice desert, and a movie ready.  Plus a really nice gift for me.
Why the mixed signals? ? ? ?

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2016, 06:36:56 AM »
Happy birthday to you.

Why the mixed signals? ? ? ?
Because she is confused. She doesn't think straight.
Be happy for the good signs but have no expectations. On my 40th birthday I got a bath bomb from MLCW. :)
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2016, 06:58:53 AM »
Once again, it’s been a while since I’ve been here.  Not because I don’t want to share, but because there is not much to share.  We have been going to counseling, about once a month.  Next week we have another.
At our last, I found three good signs, which I keep repeating to myself, to help through these long days.
1)   She is seeing a personal counselor.  One recommended by our Marriage Counselor.  She has only been once, but it is something.
2)   She acknowledged that she doesn’t like our children to see us like this. 
3)   She says she is looking for a way to open back up to me, without losing who she has become in the past several months.  This one is a little more confusing to me.  On the surface, this is really good news.  She wants to find a way to open up.  Great!  Open up and communicate, right?  Well, the words were there, but the actions don’t seem to follow. (Maybe there is a little less hostility?) Still, this begs the question; what has she become in the past several months?  A cold, closed hearted, irritable, stressed out woman who has lost joy in nearly everything she once loved?  And that is what she doesn’t want to lose?  I know, I know… believe nothing that they say.  So I keep telling myself. 
I have noticed the slightest softening, in our day to day interactions.  Believe only half of what they do.  In trying not to get my hopes up, I am continuing to work on my 180.  And it is hard!  As previously noted in my posts; she is home, and living in our house.  She sleeps in our bed about half the time, and stays with one of our children in their rooms the other half, mostly weekends.  She is an elementary intensive math teacher, with a huge amount of stress!  This obviously translates to more stress and tension in the home.  I often try to distance myself, physically.  I go out on walks or get out doors with the dog.  I watch TV in a separate room, or sit on our back patio.  I see friends and travel for work, when I can.  I am also trying to keep distance emotionally.  Keeping my communications short, and to the point.  I still try to compliment her on some things, (her love language) but I’ll limit it.  Picking up the chores when I can.  And 50% of the time, I am corrected for doing it wrong.  Laughable, but I keep at it.
Ultimately, we are in a better place than last year, when I first found this site.  The Holidays were so terrible last year, as she had decided to leave after Jan 1st.  Keeping that secret from my family, and trying to enjoy Christmas with my children and her, was such a difficult time.  Today, there is no such impending plan.  Simply a coolness in the house.  Irritability, and no affection. 
So our rollercoaster has smoothed out for now, yet it continues.  I ask these questions daily, how much longer?  How will this close out?  Will she continue her path back to us, or will she turn the other way and run again?  Is this how things will be forever?  Only God knows at this point.  And I pray daily to help me retain my faith, my strength, and my patience.

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2016, 07:28:56 AM »
Hi Optimus.
It seems our Ws are quite similar MLCers.

I think because there is almost no communication between us and our Ws, we don't see what is going on inside them. They are working on themselves I think but we don't see much of it. They are progressing, and that's what your W wants to keep.

I will most certainly not be like this for ever. I think BBHelp wrote that we might only see small changes but those ARE changes. It just takes really long.
You are doing good. Keep it up.
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2017, 12:34:05 PM »
A few updates since my last post. Made it through the holidays, even though they were again terrible. She being cold and distant making absolutely zero effort's to be friendly. After the holidays, I've come up with three resolutions.
1). Take better care of myself. In all senses, health & eating, fitness, and emotional. Spend more time with my kids and find things I enjoy doing while feeling less guilty regarding mw
2). Do better at work.
3). To avoid going through a third holiday season (next year) of pain and loneliness.
These give me a focus.
Second development, after a very rough first week of January, during a conversation regarding my wife's job she casually mentioned she is not moving out. At the last conversation we had with our marriage counselor; she didn't know what she wanted.  The counselor said she needed to make a decision if she wanted to do leave or stay. This is very good news!  but again the attitude hasn't changed.  I wouldn't call it monster but she's definitely cold, distant, and irritable.
I've been reading and rereading the six stages of midlife crisis. I may be falling into the trap of trying to put my MLC into a particular phase of the map. But somehow it helps by trying to understand where she's been, where she possibly is now, and where she's going? At the same time, it doesn't help on the rough days.   I am a person who pursues what he wants.  If things are not working, I change tracts, or I go after something else.  This waiting while she is so disrespectful and distant, it's so very hard.  No matter how many other things I find to do, my wife is not her self, and that clouds everything else.
If in fact MLC is true and is what she's suffering from; which I do believe, then that leaves the real questions.
How long can I stand?
What will she look like when she finally comes out of this? Obviously I don't mean what she looks like physically but who will she be?


Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2017, 01:32:28 PM »
I am living with these three facts each day.
1) I have Faith in GOD.                He will lead me and look out for me.
2) This is not my wife.                 This woman has lost her way, but this is not the woman I've been with for 18 years.  Her chaos will not last forever.  Things will change and evolve.
3) I am a good person.                I am blessed with my health, my smart beautiful children, family, friends, and a really great life.

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2017, 01:34:17 PM »
These are good ones!
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2017, 06:56:30 AM »
Hello all.  Not sure if anyone still reads my threads, since I don’t post too often.
I am having a hard time.  MW is still here, in the house.  That alone should be good.  But she has become so distant, so closed off and cold.  But she is still being the best mom to our kids.  I do thank God for that.  She is very involved, to the point of over compensating, in my book.
I’ve been reading a lot, and looking back at other’s stories.  I know she (MW) is hurting.  And being driven by this dark side.  The side that feeds on conflict.  The more I fight, the stronger this dark side becomes.  The more good I offer, the more the dark side finds fault, with what I’m doing.  Which of course provides more conflict, which lets this darkness grow stronger.  So I back off.  I walk away, and practice finding my own space.  At times this is helping, and I am grateful.  But as I let go; I feel her negativity and b!tc#iness escalating.  It’s like she is challenging me on purpose.  Pushing me… pushing me so hard, that I will finally kick her out.  Then she can say, “I did not want to leave, but he is making me”   I don’t want my kids to hurt.  I don’t want them to carry this burden with them throughout their lives. 
I don’t want to give up the girl, but I just don’t know how long I can handle this tension in the house. 

Offline Watcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4430
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2017, 07:17:41 AM »
Hi Optimus,

I am currently at 22 months post BD and I see that you are roughly 5 months more than that. I think that you just decribed perfectly what I am seeing. I let my W come to me and we have months of NC on her end.

She is doing the mom thing with our kids after taking a year off from them. I think you and I are just much further down the road in their plans. My W will still throw out the occasional, go get your divorce already Watcher.

I believe they are hell bent on making our lives miserable because they themselves are miserable. I so get the pushing. They are constantly trying to find their justification for their behavior.

I would leave her alone. I do feel that my W wants to tell everyone that I divorced her. When I left our home she told everyone that I left her. It's the martyr syndrome. Don't give in. :)

I wish I knew how this ends. So at least I know what my next 5 months will have in store for me now.

Life has thrown us one eff'd up curveball. We live for ourselves and our children now.

Stay strong

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2017, 07:56:15 AM »
Hey Optimus,

Same here. My W is also a great mother.
I just left her alone and live my life. I'm not mean or too kind to her. We don't have conflicts this way.
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2017, 09:11:40 AM »
OK.  Who is ready for this?
The weekends are hard.  She is home and the tension is thick in the air.  We had a full day of sports, errands, and chores on Saturday; mostly separate.  Fine, that keeps the calm.  We actually got two separate invitations from friends to do something Saturday night.  Not only was she on their texts, as was I, but I also texted her.  No responses.  Each of these activities were time sensitive, and friends were waiting on our responses.  Finally I picked up the phone and called her.  Something I almost never do now.  Our communications rely heavily on texts, even at home at times.  But we needed to give an answer to these people, on our plans.  When she answered, and I explained how we needed to decide, she of course said she didn’t know.  She says “I am so frustrated.”  So I said, how about we don’t do either.  OK, she says, and hangs up.
Once back at home, I kindly ask what she is so frustrated about.  She directs me to our back porch, our normal discussion ground; blindsiding me with all that is wrong in our relationship.  While I will not detail her list of grievances against me, I will say that each one was more trivial then the last.  While keeping a straight face, I spoke with her about many of these.  Maybe it wasn’t all that was wrong, but it was a list going back several weeks.  Things I should know.  No she should not have to tell me.   She tells me how good I am at my job; and it’s because I anticipate what my customers want.  Why can’t I do that here, at home?  At one point, I was getting a little excited, but I brought my self back down.  Calm, Assured, that was my plan. 
Finally she says, “You should be trying to win me back.”  W…T…F…!  Yes, I should be trying to win you back.  Since that is not what I have been doing for the past two years.  I smiled, and let that one pass.  Once ended, we went to our separate corners.  I went to pick up dinner.  We did end up meeting a few friends out later. 
Our Sunday was more civil, went biking with the kids.  Now, back to school and work, and our routines. 

My feeling is that <my> detachment is really starting to get to her.  She is not getting the attention that she wants.  Maybe she is feeling the stress of the darkness, but has no outlet?  The anger is still there, but she can’t blame me.  So these tiny trivial things are all my fault, and seem like the end of the world.
But what I don’t know; is this is a test from her, or is she seeing a slight version of reality?  Many of her complaints, could be addressed quite easily.  Minor as they are, I understand they seem very important to her.  If addressing these could make things better for her, I would certainly jump in.   I would love to win her back!
But somehow, I can’t help but feeling that she is exercising a power play.  Trying to maintain control.
Thoughts out there?

Offline Songanddance

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5669
  • Gender: Female
  • Strength and honour are her clothing;
Re: How can she
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2017, 09:31:48 AM »
Quote
is this is a test from her, or is she seeing a slight version of reality?  Many of her complaints, could be addressed quite easily.  Minor as they are, I understand they seem very important to her.  If addressing these could make things better for her, I would certainly jump in.

This is pure MLC pity party syndrome. 

Her catalogue of disasters is pretty normal because, of course, it's all your fault and not even trying to win her back is your fault!   Come on - don't fall for this.  This is typical monster and typical " there can't be anything wrong with me so it must be my H" attitude.

I don't think she is peeking out of the tunnel and if it's a test then she has you right where she wants you.   Do not address her complaints - validate them instead and back it up with "you know that's not true" or " you know that had you not done that or said that then this wouldn't have happened."   Whack the ball straight back to her. 

Don't jump in because you are then MR FIXER and she will throw that back at you further down the road " Well if you hadn't interfered ......etc"

I doubt highly she is exercising power play.  MLCers are manipulative and they lie frequently but their brains are sometimes so fuddled that they would forget how to exercise the power play halfway through.

Words that I have found invaluable are "uhuh" in a neutral tone and  when she challenges you ask this but in these words " That's interesting, what makes you think that?"   The answer will be quite trite and usually not worth your energy. Peel the onion but don't fix the tears...... That is for her to sort out.

Just remember to take a physical step back next time she "monsters"  (monster can be subtle or quiet or tearful or frustrated)  and say in your head - "she's in MLC and I must not fix it"  Say it several times to yourself in your head and you will soon see much of what she says as not really valid.  Validate them to her but do not agonise over them afterwards.
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2017, 01:24:03 AM »
Maybe you should say: "You should win ME back. Starting with owning your problems."
But I would never say that even if I do think that.
Yes, she is worrying that you are not where she left you. And you shouldn't be. If you do want a R with her and she with you, you should build a new one. It can't be she sitting back and allowing you to do the work.
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2017, 01:53:54 AM »
<snark mode on>
You should be trying to win her back?

<snark mode off>

Uhmmmmmm ... NO... YOU are the prize. Remember that. YOU are the one that hasn't run off into an affair. YOU are the one who has been the stable person/parent.....

She needs to have a cranial-rectal disinversion and needs to work on her stuff to win YOU back... Of course, like S & D said, she's nowhere ready to do that work because she is too busy trying to blame you for her actions.... And, S & D has it right in that this is nothing more than a pity party ploy and a way to find things to blame you for in the future....Don't drink the Kool-Aid....
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2017, 05:21:36 AM »
Thank you all.  Good thoughts.  I will keep on my same path.  Obviously, it is having an affect on her.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2017, 11:42:00 AM »
The week has been pleasant.  W and I have barely spoken 20 words since Sunday.  Nothing about Saturday.  But that is expected.   
I am feeling especially good, as I am still in 180 mode.
Next Thursday, one week from today, is our anniversary.  16 years.  In the past two years, I have acted like things were still fine with us on this day.  Flowers, card, dinner, etc.  This year, I am planning to ignore it altogether.  After all, this is not the woman I married all those years ago.  This is someone else.  Someone who I don’t much care for.  Why try to celebrate this day, with a stranger?  I figure the worst thing that can happen is that she gets mad.  But she is always mad. 

Offline 1phoenix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2017, 06:23:08 PM »
Optimus360,

Silly suggestion about your anniversary..go find a very generic card, they do exist, no lovey dovey, no nothing. 

Something like:

Happy Anniversary to my Alien Wife....
Don't forget to get into the soylent green line :)

If by some chance she brings it up or remembers, you are prepared. 

If not, return the card.

Pick up something else at the store for yourself and then there is nothing lost either way. 
I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear — Nelson Mandela

I never lose.  I either win or learn! - Nelson Mandela

For we have fallen from our shelves, To face the truth about ourselves.  "The Gift", Annie Lennox

"You must do the thing you think you cannot do."  Eleanor Roosevelt

"Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." Yoda

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2017, 11:54:15 PM »
The card is a good idea except sounding bitter on it. Just say happy anniversary. Be indifferent IMO.
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2017, 07:28:29 AM »
Thank you.  A simple card is good.

Offline Dji76

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1519
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2017, 05:44:42 AM »
U should try to win her back... She is gaslighting you. My opinion, she should want to be there, not have to be sold on the idea every day.

Offline ZaMunky

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2017, 09:22:38 AM »
No way. No card, NOTHING. Its what she is bringing to the relationship, why reward her?

Quote
Back in a slamming door.  Canceled taxi.  Screaming, that she is not going.  How could she go? After I pulled this sh**?  She needs to go.  But now she can’t!  I am such an A**hole.  I took her choice away.  Sobbing.  Arguing.  Anger.  More slamming doors.

That is not funny, but I find it funny because mine has done the same so many times. Mine told me she was probably going to invite OM to the parking lot after her class and give him a....well, you know and I went smack off on her for 2 hours and she gets mad telling me "I am holding her back and she feels like she is in prison and trapped in the marriage" and on and on and on and why do I do this to her......UNREAL, are you kidding me right now?
YOU'RE mad at ME because you can't give your OM a "blank" in the school parking lot and I AM THE BAD GUY HERE??? What planet did I just get dropped off on??!!?!?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 10:41:40 AM by ZaMunky »
Me: 46
W: 40
Married: Dec 2, 2008- 8 years
THE BD - 3/8/2017
W left 5/25/2017
I moved out 7/23/2017
W Divorce filed 8/14/2017
OM suspected but not confirmed
Kids: D3 D3 S4 S8 SIL12

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2017, 05:10:05 AM »
Do a Search here (on HS) for "MLC Greeting Cards" There was a thread a while ago that had LOTS of good stuff. I am SURE you can find the appropriate sentiment that... along with a bouquet of dead flowers... or black roses

Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2017, 05:37:02 AM »
I've done it.  A basic card, and a simple bouquet of flowers.  After all, most of these 16 years were good.  Let's take the high road.  See what Happens?

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2017, 05:51:27 AM »
I've done it.  A basic card, and a simple bouquet of flowers.  After all, most of these 16 years were good.  Let's take the high road.  See what Happens?

All snarky comments aside... Taking the high road where one can look themselves in the mirror at the end of the day is NEVER wrong.....

Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2017, 06:49:14 AM »
How long can one look in the mirror all alone, while their partner acts as if they hate you?

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2017, 07:44:10 AM »
How long can one look in the mirror all alone, while their partner acts as if they hate you?

As long as one needs to in order to realize the cardinal rule of MLC - It is THEIR problem, it is THEIR crisis.  You can't fix it, you can't stop it, you did NOT cause it, and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to control the outcome of it.

All you can do is to work on YOU. Because, they may very well hate you at this time. After all, in THEIR frame of reference you are the reason that their lives are complete $#!te at the moment because you were no longer able to fill their internal void..... Of course, this last part is what they realize when they finally crash and burn at Rock Bottom but until that time and until they work out their demons (if ever) the one that they lay all the blame on is the one that was the most supportive......

Having said that, I had a package of my Mid-Lifers favorite chocolates ready here for Easter in the event she brought something for me... and she did so she got her chocolates too.....
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline 1phoenix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2017, 05:50:52 PM »
And I always have his favorite snacks in the house just in case he shows up.
I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear — Nelson Mandela

I never lose.  I either win or learn! - Nelson Mandela

For we have fallen from our shelves, To face the truth about ourselves.  "The Gift", Annie Lennox

"You must do the thing you think you cannot do."  Eleanor Roosevelt

"Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." Yoda

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2017, 06:49:55 AM »
We had a blowout on Wednesday.  Emotions became escalated.  I wish I had remained calmer, but, in retrospect, I did an OK job. 
It started with me drawing a boundary, based on comments she had been making to friends on group texts.  I called her out, and she did not like that.  Defensive to say the least.  Things proceeded, and I got excited.  I told her to just leave.  If she is so unhappy here, find somewhere else.  She says she can’t afford it, or she would.  So I told her if you can’t leave, then be kind.  That’s all I ask.  Just be kind.  Treat me nicely, and try to be positive, since you have to be here.  Maybe, if we are both putting forth some effort, we could begin to rebuild something?  As a response, she said that I need to give her a reason to stay married to her.  This is where I lost it.  I said “I have been standing by you, supporting you, and forgiving you for the past 2 and a half years.  Busting my ass to make things better for you around the house, and in life in general.  And now I need to give you a reason?  Two weeks ago, you said I should be trying to win you back.  You should be trying to win ME back!”  We kind of danced around a bit, but somehow the anniversary came up.  And she had the balls to say my card was the most generic, unfeeling card she’s ever seen.  Half way through while starting to criticize the flowers, (me, not saying anything) she acknowledged, that she did not do a thing to recognize the day.  She stopped...  And I let her stand… in silence.  I turned and left to take our oldest to practice. 
After two days to process, I am very happy with my conduct.  While her not leaving due to money has some truth and that is painful to hear; if she really wanted to go, she could find a way.  And the anniversary thing was so telling of her mental state.  She actually started to b!tc# about a card and flowers, even though she had not done or said a thing, on our day.  Wow?  That poor woman.  She is lost.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2017, 06:25:42 AM »
Quick update.  After our blow out, things have steadied a bit.  Still no real talking.  There are cycles, but I (kind-of) see them coming.  It doesn’t make things much easier, the downs are still tough.  The ups are better, still not great.  But we are getting along, and planning a few adventures with the family for the summer.
I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this?  A softening, kind of feeling from MLC'er.  And, what can I expect in the coming months?  Will she get scared, and bring back the anger and hate?

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2017, 06:13:53 AM »
I’m not sure if anyone is still out there reading my posts.  I am not good at updates, even though I am diligently fighting the fight to stand for my MLC Wife. 
A very quick recap/ update; MLC Wife is in our house, believed to be a wallower.  I am seeing cycling up and down several times a month, but no real patterns I can count on.  I have been doing rather well with my 180, and mirroring W’s attitudes and behavior, but always a step up from her in positivity.  When she acts angry, I smile then walk away.  When she is up, I will talk a little, nothing serious.  It’s been her summer break, so she has been around a lot.  She has been doing nearly every activity under the sun with our three kids.  Over compensating, in my opinion.
We “get along”, but mostly by ignoring each other.  Very little talking.  Interactions when necessary. 
One day at a time, and I am making it.  I have a strong back, and I can rise above her negativity and anger when she cycles down.  I keep myself busy with work, kids (when I can, and when W has not already monopolized their time) reading, walking/ running, and spending time on the water.
As I have said before in this forum, this situation has forced me to look at myself, and make some changes for the positive.   Now, I am enjoying a better and closer relationship with my kids, then ever before.  But I feel like this situation is having an affect them.  Their attitudes, especially the oldest S13 seems to be passive and accommodating toward my W.  Don’t get me wrong, I am glad they are not arguing, but I am starting to worry that the example we are setting, is not healthy for our little people.  After all, this is a cold and distant relationship right now, and not what it should be. 
Yes, I am proudly standing for my wife; and from my perspective, I am demonstrating what a strong father does to save his family.  But are my (our) actions actually doing damage to our children and their future relationships?

Offline Samurai

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2017, 04:05:05 PM »
We seem to be walking the same path Optimus.
The kids are affected unfortunately, even if we don't fight or argue. My son is 8 and he asked about why W and I aren't showing affection towards each other. I just hope that I will be able to make them understand when they are bigger that normal people aren't like this and showing affection is normal and they should do so.

It seems you are doing good and progressing well. Keep it up buddy.
Me 42
W42 - Wallower
Married 11 years
BD - October 2015 ILYBINILWY
S9 D7
OM - Yes, EA, ended in early 2016
Separated in June 2018

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2017, 09:37:44 AM »
Thank you.  One day at a time, I guess.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2018, 11:41:10 AM »
Here I am, starting 2018, maybe not really the same?  Maybe better??
If anyone remembers my posts from last year, I said I would work on myself, my job, and not go through a horrible Holiday Season again.  Well… two out of three ain’t bad?
My year was spent:
A)  Working on myself, and getting closer with my kids.  Mission accomplished, so far.   
I’ve have been working on my fitness (not enough), but this is another new year.  Time for additional improvements.  Running, biking, pushups, etc.  Emotionally, I’ve made strong progress.  I have read many books this year.  Continued with my journal.  I have researched Larry Bilota and his MLC Program.  I even had a phone chat with him personally.  Very insightful, although I can’t justify $10-$12K to enroll in his full program.  I like his positive message.
I took a leadership class, A Man and His Design.  Quite informative.  I’ve been reading the Bible, a little.  I’ve also been reading about Peri-Menopause, a lot.  More on that below.
The kids have gotten into Hockey, which I enjoy being involved in.  I don’t skate anymore, but I love passing and playing with them. 
Overall, I am feeling better about my situation, personally.
B) Working on my job.  This was a great year for me and my career.  One my best financially, and I made some progress with personal business objectives.  I have set things up, barring a world/ financial  crisis, where we should do even better next year!  Yeah.
C) Avoiding a repeat of 2016’s Holiday Season; where her crisis clouded the family’s joy.  Well, not so good here, but a valid effort on my part.  As mentioned in previous posts, my wife tends to go overboard for the kids.  Not a bad trait, but when you know she is over compensating, and finds fault with nearly everything I try, it is hard to be genuinely happy for her and the situation.  We survived though.  And she is still in our house.  Depressed.  Some cold days, some frigid days, and the tension still hangs thick.  No medication. No therapy.  And still quite closed down emotionally.  But that’s on her.  I’m simply moving along day to day, and letting her do her thing.

OK, so I started reading on Peri-Menopause.  While the majority of symptoms are clearly there, I am not sure how this relates to us, as we navigate MLC?  Are these two things the same, or different?
While she has not told me any of this; I can see the signs myself.  She is in the right age range.  She has hair loss, weight gain, loss of libido, mood swings, irregular cycles, and complaining about a lack of sleep (my fault, <of course> so now she is staying in another room).  I find the AC cranked down daily.  Forgetfulness.  Cycling tremendously, (Peri-Menopausal Rage is actually a thing, look it up).  I keep a calendar, and can ALMOST predict when things will run off the rails.   She has little to no interest in those things she used to enjoy and even love.  Losing contact with friends.  But, she has a new friend, someone who resembles her mother, in more ways than one.  That one is curious, as she was never particularly close with her mother.
I don’t know where this leaves me for 2018?  She is still here, and showing zero signs of wanting to leave.  In-fact, she got a new cat for our daughter. 
And I am still here; still in pain, but in better shape than last year.  Actually, 2017 has been a decent year. 
I think that is a win.

Offline Songanddance

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5669
  • Gender: Female
  • Strength and honour are her clothing;
Re: How can she
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2018, 01:39:23 AM »
Quote
OK, so I started reading on Peri-Menopause.  While the majority of symptoms are clearly there, I am not sure how this relates to us, as we navigate MLC?  Are these two things the same, or different?

Yes and No.  MLC is where the MLCer questions/challenges/runs away from the ageing process which is why replay is such a significant part of the crisis.
Menopause is the physical sign for the woman that her body is ageing and the symptoms do manifest in similar ways to MLC.  It is too simplistic to say that menopause triggers MLC but there are parallels and the behaviour can be inter-twined.

If your wife is showing classical signs of MLC depression then the menopause only compounds that.  It is unusual for women to have full blown depression with meno-pause. Speaking from personal experience I have gone through menopause during my H's 5 year crisis. It is most disconcerting to have memory loss, to be emotionally up and down, the completely unpredictable hot flushes, the tiredness and the sheer inability to think clearly for a while and there is a need to feel selfish. I also had reactive depression in the first year and that also did pull me apart.

Nevertheless, If your wife is clearly depressed and if there is no OM then she may well be a wallower and those MLCers rarely leave home.

The advice I can give you is to keep doing what you are doing but how much do you go dark or dim on her.  If she is finding fault with everything you do, then perhaps your inter-actions are too frequent. Hard to do I know when the MLCer is at home (mine has never left even with an OW for 3.5 years)  but it is the only way you can detach fully. 
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline Confused dad

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • Gender: Male
  • One day at a time.
Re: How can she
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2018, 06:15:48 AM »
Hi Optimus
I read your thread yesterday.  Your opening post made me laugh I must admit. Not really that it was funny, but that the crap mlc spouses do is so fire trucked up. I feel your pain I really do. It sucks. My wife put me through it. She was a wallower as well and just would sit at home depressed not interacting with anyone but the kids and playing puzzles. She had a PA which I busted her in back in early October. It devastated me. It had been going on over a year sporadically when I found out.  As painful as that is I do think a lot of them need to have an affair to figure it out. I had a brief retallitory affair myself shortly after. I confessed that just recently.
The process is brutal and will bring you to your knees. The only advice I have is look after yourself. My wife kept wanting to split and when I finally got there and was ready to let her go she came back around. We are reconnecting at the moment and I hope it continues. 
Be strong and look after yourself. It’s really all you can do. 
Wife moved upstairs summer of 2015
BD #1 July 2016 Said she was done( right after I told her I was 100% committed to doing the work on my end to fix our marriage)  she did not leave, things actually improved some  over the winter then she pulls away again

BD # 2 July 2017 says she wants to sell house and go our seperate ways. Wants her freedom. She is unhappy and thinks it is because of me.
EA or FA discovered July 2017. She searches her astrology sign and his almost daily. 
PA confirmed 10-8-17. Had been going on sporadically since summer of 2016
She is very active with kids but has blowups quite often.  She's acting like a teenager so maybe she relates well to them.
D-14
D-12
Married 17 years together for 20
I'm standing but am about to explode.

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2018, 04:37:15 AM »
Hi Optimus,

What's new in your world? How about an update? A LOT can happen in 10 months....

UM
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2018, 12:42:15 PM »
My mentor here at HS suggested that I update my posts.  I haven’t written in a while, because there isn’t really anything new.  I am patiently following the process.  Letting time pass.  I read on the site sometimes, depending on my level of frustration or contentment.    
My MLCer W is still living in our house, but in another room.  She doesn’t monster much, but is still cold and distant.  I do not believe there is anyone else  at this time.  She has no energy for that, nor much of anything.  She is mostly unhappy.  The cycles can still be viscous; days when she finds fault in everything I do, including breathing.  She will get after the kid, too.  But it is mostly aimed at me, which is better.  Then other days, she just keeps to herself, once the kids go to bed.  Staying in her room, or starring at her phone for hours.  There are even times when I wonder if I am the cause of this crisis?  Since I have closed myself off to her, in many ways.  Short answers.  Not much talking or sharing.  Doing more of my own thing, without asking her to join.  But then I remember that it is not me.  But I did not start this.  I did not throw the bomb in to our lives.  I have not created the distance, I've only continued it.    And... I AM the one who is trying to keep this family together.! 
But this weekend was a little different.  It was my birthday, and she was actually nice to me.  Purchased two thoughtful gifts, made breakfast with the kids for me, and even took the family including my parents out to dinner.  The air seemed a little lighter.  And she has been speaking to me.  Nothing serious of course, but a quick prevue of where she is going, or what she is doing, as she walks out the door.
The hard part is seeing that there really is a reasonable person living inside that body.  But knowing that the kind one will disappear at anytime, and we’ll be left with the crazy one again.  I guess that is why they call it a rollercoaster.   
We are taking our kids away for Thanksgiving Holiday, to visit the extended part of my family.  It will be interesting.  We did this two years ago, and stayed for almost a week.  At that time, she was so withdrawn, and distant.  Mostly absorbed with playing games on her phone.  This was the first time anyone in our family had seen her like that.  She has always loved my family, as we are big, loud, and happy.  The polar opposite, of hers.  Obvisouly, I had been seeing this in her for over a year, but she was so different to everyone; enough that several relatives made comments about it.  (not to her, but among them selves)  So, how will this year go?? Can she keep it together?  Only time will tell. 
My kids seem to be hanging in there, pretty well.  Everyone is busy.  I am coaching hockey this season for my oldest, which gives us a little car time, together.  Although he talks about the same amount as my W.  I think there is some connection with homones.  I think Old Pilot said somethiing similar; regarding when they get their hormones, and then when they lose them. 
I try to tuck the little ones in each night, they still like me.  And we say our prayers together. 
Not the best life, but pretty OK considering.

Offline Thunder

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22159
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2018, 12:58:27 PM »
Opt, things sound pretty peaceful anyway.

Wallower's are hard to live with because they just shut down, but you're doing all the right things.  Leaving her to her crisis and living your life.

Sounds like she had a bit of movement but not enough to get excited about.
Just keep doing what you're doing and let her keep processing.

Hope your vaca goes a little better this time, enjoy your family time!
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2018, 06:53:34 AM »
Well, you can rest assured that her Crisis is NOT your fault nor are you the cause of it...

You mentioned that her family is the polar opposite of yours and that might explain (as much as anything can explain an MLC) the foundations of her crisis.

Like Thunder said, just keep on doing what you are doing - living your life, being the stable parent for your kids.... W will do what she is going to do and it will take the time it takes.


UM
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2018, 04:57:58 AM »
Thank you guys.  Your support is so nice to have!
As much as I want to just get past her BS, it is not currently in the cards.  The time is hard, as each of us knows.  Waiting  Waiting  Waiting.   But having a personal understanding (we think) of what is happening, is helpful. 
The bigger challenge today is keeping my spirits up, with out following another path myself.  I am a fixer.  I always have been.  And if something can't be fixed, I go at it another angle.  If that doesn't work, I close it down, and go after something else.  New wife, New life sounds really nice sometimes.  But here, I can't (won't) do that.  I don't want to put my children through that, nor do I want to give up on this life, which  crazytown W and I have created.  She may not remember that we built this, but we did.  And we both used to love it.
So Patience, is now my theme song.

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2018, 05:35:06 AM »
Patience is a virtue as they say....

especially when you'd like nothing more than to reach out and touch them... with a 2x4!

Having said that, each of us has their own "point of no return" or a tipping point where we simply have grown forward enough that we are no longer waiting on the Mid-Lifer to pull their head out of their  ...  fog... or certain personal boundaries have been crossed where the damage is no longer recoverable.

You'll know when it happens but that point is not today or tomorrow. As long as one is able to keep their own emotional well-being in process and attend to it as well as no longer being affected by their Mid-Lifers actions or moods, then one can live their lives as they see fit. If the Mid-Lifer confronts their demons and works through them, then a reconnection or even a reconciliation is possible... If not, then not.

Since this is a L    O    N    G  and drawn-out process that is not without some significant pain attached, it can wear down the strongest person over time.

"Standing" does NOT mean "standing Still and waiting" - it means doing your own healing, your own work, and fostering your own growth independently of your Mid-Lifer and their path... their path is theirs to walk, their life to live, their choices to make and their consequences to deal with... It all comes down to the realization and acceptance that while, no, this is NOT what we want, it is NOT what we planned, it is NOT where we expected our lives to be at this point, it IS something that is totally out of our control or even our direct sphere of influence and therefore, we need to do the best we can for ourselves and our kids, to find ways to heal our own wounds, forgive our own iniquities. We need to take back our own power and our own control over those things that we DO have control over (namely our own emotional, physical, and spiritual well-being) and get on with our lives.

We can hold our Mid-Lifers in our hearts, recalling the person that was and wishing them well on their journey but it is not a journey on which we can accompany them. Whether or not the two paths will cross at the end of the journey is anyone's guess. Assuming they do cross somewhere int eh future, there is no guarantee that both parties arrive at that crossing at the same time... I would venture to guess that it is often the LBS that arrives at the crossing first and waits for a season (Stands). Catching a glimpse of the Mid-Lifer off in the distance struggling towards the crossing might be all the motivation that the LBS needs to plant their feet firmly at the crossing and wait. In other cases, the LBS sees nothing but smoke and ash of the total annihilation left by the Mid-Lifer and then chooses to set their face towards the sun and move on. It is a personal decision.. Again, this is our choice and the consequences thereof are ours to bear.

Going back to something you said though, keeping up our own spirits has little to do with the path we chose... In fact, I would say that keeping up our spirits should be done REGARDLESS of the path we take. "Moving on"(a new R) for the sole reason of keeping ourselves "happy" is a slippery trip ont eh road to MLOC Hades... After all, it is xactly that which has driven our Mid-Lifer's off the rails - that search for SOMEONE EXTERNAL TO OURSELVES to keep us happy. that is an impossible task for any human being in the long run - just look at our Mid-Lifers.... ... That was, in fact OUR job and we were doing it well... until we weren't... Being "happy" is NOT a destination, it is a way of life and a choice....

UM
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Thunder

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22159
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2018, 07:08:58 AM »
YES!!

We need to choose joy in our lives no matter what they do.

It's not like we get another life.  This is it.  There are no do overs.
Make this one count, make it good.   :)  You'll never regret it.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2018, 06:35:56 AM »
Hello all.  We made it through the holiday week.  There were good times with family.  And some adventure with the kiddos.  MLC W and I did a little more then tolerate each other, we actually had some fun.  Nothing too serious, but a step up from two years ago.  I can’t really believe I am looking at that as a positive, but I am.  There was also more interaction with the extended family.  Infact, this was much more like years past, with her and them.  Helping with the kitchen, football, playing with the kids, and less alone time on her phone.  There was still some of that, but things seemed better.
Now we are home, and the routine is back to where it was.  Distant, negative, and cool.  But no monster as of now.

I appreciate what you guys have been saying on my posts.  I know I need to find my own happiness; not relying on someone else.  I am definitely working on this!  Overall I am content… But  it is lonely here.  I had a woman and best friend, that I truly enjoyed sharing my life with.  That is all on hold.    And that leaves a big hole.

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2018, 06:39:54 AM »
Yes, it does leave a hole... for a while... But there are probably things that you stopped doing in your life that you enjoyed that you could look at again.. besides, it is not about filling a hole (that is what the Mid-Lifers do - with the Affair, the work, the toys, the phones, whatever). It's about finding happiness inside despite the hole.... and filling it with your own happiness and life....
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2019, 07:17:12 AM »
I lost a friend last week.  47 years old.  Heart attack in the middle of the night at home.  Went to his funeral yesterday.  Lots of thoughts circling my mind.
When I saw all the love pouring out for him, it hurt.  Here were grown, burly men, with beards and tattoos holding back their tears, or hiding them under sunglasses.  Here were his imperfect kids, who were saying good bye to their Dad.  This man had so much life in him, and clearly he gave so much to others!  He was always up, and ready for an adventure.  He had so much to live for, and he is gone. 
As I sat at his service hearing all the glowing comments and stories from his friends and family, I started to think (as I think we all do, in a similar period of loss),  what if this was me?  Who would attend?  What would they say?  I thought of my kids, my parents, sister, and others who mean the world to me.  Obviously, my brain ended up on my wife.  Still lost in her MLC.  I began to wonder if she would even care?  Would she stand up and say anything.  Would she cry?  Of course she would.  She can put on a good show. 
Honestly, I fell into a funk, and later went to bed feeling sorry for myself.
This morning when I woke up I realized, my friend’s wife did not even speak at the services.  This is no indictment on her or their relationship.  She is probably devastated and could not say anything. 
But there was plenty said.  All the kindness expressed, and the love shared; was all by the other people he touched throughout his life.  This morning it became apparent to me, that my friend, was so much more than a husband.  And I need to be too.   

Life is short.  I have so much to give.  She is lost, not me.  She cannot be my focus at this time.

Offline UrsaMajor

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9338
  • Gender: Male
  • Live like they are never coming back
Re: How can she
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2019, 07:47:39 AM »
This morning it became apparent to me, that my friend, was so much more than a husband.  And I need to be too.   

Life is short.  I have so much to give.  She is lost, not me.  She cannot be my focus at this time.


THIS should be the new LBS Mantra.......

I too lost a friend last Friday but he was MUCH older and it was not a surprise but being in church Sunday with his wife, who I know and love dearly, one of his 2 daughters and his son, all of whom I have watched grow up in the last 20 years I have been in this church and knowing that his other D, who I sang in our choir with for several years, is flying in with her H and the baby they had recently, I had similar thoughts... His funeral will be next Friday.
Me - 56
xW - 49
Together 19 years - Married 17 at separation
S - 12
D - 8
2 Dogs (1 each)
BD#1 - August 2015
Atomic BD - 13 Dec 2015
House sold & separated - Mar 2016
Divorce final 30 August 2019

Survival Instructions for Newbies
Site Map
 
A "friend" will not "stand by you" no matter what you do. That is NOT a friend. That is an enabler. That is an accomplice.
A REAL friend will sit you down and tell you to your face to stop being a firetrucking idiot before you ruin your life and the lives of those around you.

Offline Treasur

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8740
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2019, 07:53:04 AM »
I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend. And yes all of those thoughts are entirely normal. Been there, thought that. And like you how shocking it is to accept that if it were your funeral, you simply have no idea how your spouse or ex spouse would feel.

But you have come a long way, Optimus, from where you started. Even if your w has not.
It sounds as if your friend would want you to eat life as greedily and optimistically as you can and it sounds as if that is what you are taking forward with you.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2019, 03:32:20 AM »
This past Saturday we celebrated our 18th Anniversary.  Well, more like acknowledged it.  No flowers or cards or date night out.  However,
We Are Still Here.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2019, 08:29:24 AM »
Havinga hard time today.  Nothing especially new.  I just find week ends hard, as MLC W is at home, not away at work.  It seems all the things we used to enjoy doing together, have dissappeared or changed, just as her personality. 
She is a stranger to me.

Online OffRoad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3492
  • Gender: Female
Re: How can she
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2019, 12:34:16 PM »
My condolences on the loss of your friend. 47 is so young to me.
At home MLCers are difficult.  They are there, except they aren't. What kinds of things do you do for yourself on weekends?
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

Online PJ Will Be OK

  • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 598
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2019, 01:49:57 PM »
Hello Optimus. Following along. I somehow never caught your thread before.

I have a live-in wallower and it is really draining. Depression Fallout and Emotional Starvation are real. I think we both know what we have to do for ourselves, but doing it is really hard.

Quote
Yes, it does leave a hole... for a while... But there are probably things that you stopped doing in your life that you enjoyed that you could look at again.. besides, it is not about filling a hole (that is what the Mid-Lifers do - with the Affair, the work, the toys, the phones, whatever). It's about finding happiness inside despite the hole.... and filling it with your own happiness and life....
This is so well-said UM. My God. We have this hole in our lives that we can't fill. But we have to come to terms with it and not fall into it.

Take care of yourself and those kiddos, Optimus.
"I'm slowly learning to expect nothing and appreciate everything."

Together 28 years, married 27
Two adult kids, ours

BD #1: 2016 - EA
BD #2: 2018 - FA
W moved out - June 2019
OM#3 - July 2019
W asks for divorce - August 2019
Divorce final - September 2019
Card-carrying member of the Iffer Party

My thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11093.0;topicseen

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #89 on: May 09, 2019, 01:42:23 PM »
Sorry to post so little.  I appreciate you guys keeping tabs on me.
O. R., I enjoy being outside, spending time with the kids, running/biking/hiking.  I love the water, and spend time on it or in it when I can.  I have a boat, and that is a great escape, however, with kids other interests, it usually becomes just me.  Not quite as fun.  W used to love the boat, but as with so much else, that has turned a full 180.
I have friends, but all are married, with kids, and wives of their own.  Hard to get out for a boys night, too often.
I also travel some for work, which is nice, but it means I spend a lot of time alone.  Not always a good thing.  The home time is difficult, since she usually finds fault with whatever I say or do, OR she hides in her room, watching TV, or on her phone.  When I ignore her and her antics, things go smoother, but it is still an unfulfilling existence.  When I plan something with the kids, she almost always goes along, afraid to miss out.  But then she will bring that negative attitude with her.
We are really living like two roommates who are just waiting out the lease.

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2019, 10:12:01 AM »
You’re constantly trying to justify why you stay.
There’s this blanket of anxiety and frustration that lives on top of everything.  You’re heartbroken because she’s changed so much and so quickly. This nostalgia is baked into everything, of missing what was here

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2019, 06:52:45 AM »
Why???
It’s father’s Day here in America.  And this morning I was greeted with a polite “Good Morning” by MLC W. (Not normally how she greets me) Followed by the kids presenting me with a Very Nice Father’s Day Gift.  Since my kids are still young, 15, 13, and 10 years, the gift was obviously purchased by W.  Then we had a traditional Country Style Breakfast. (which she made)  One of my favorites.    Across the Breakfast table we had an upbeat, can I say delightful conversation, and even a little bit of flirting, as we planned the day’s events with the whole family.  OK, maybe the flirting was my own wishful thinking, but in any case, the mood is so much lighter than standard weekend mornings.  So why?  Why, can she step up for a special occasion?  If she knows how to be like her old self, or at least act similarly to her old self?  Why doesn’t she work at this at other times?  She simply has to feel the lighter mood.  The reduced tension.  The Fun.  No??
I know, I should simply take this and enjoy, which I intend to do, after finishing this post.  I’ll focus on the good.  A day with my family!  IT IS NICE to have less negativity in the house, even for one day. 
I just find it so difficult to see a glimpse of my old W, only to know that the angry stranger will soon re-appear.

Offline Standing Strong

  • Trial Subscriber
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 544
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #92 on: June 16, 2019, 12:54:19 PM »
OR she hides in her room, watching TV, or on her phone.  When I ignore her and her antics, things go smoother, but it is still an unfulfilling existence. 

This is what mine does!!!! Annoying isn't it?

Ok, about the fathers day "act"..... it's a mask. She knows what she was, she doesn't want to be that (currently)... hence, no she doesn't want to work on that. It was a gift that was probably difficult for her to pull off. A better question would be WHY..... why would she do that for you? Guilt? Covered up feelings? Just to put on a show for the kids? Whatever the reason, she did it and that's something. Can't hand a hope on it, but take it for what it is.... positive. Obviously it took thought and effort, and isn't that what we're all looking for? One step at a time. I think you're 100% right about enjoying it for now and the alien will return soon. Good going man!!!!
Keep that love alive!!!! She's counting on you, she just doesn't know it yet.

-SS

W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMaker

  • Trial Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 398
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2019, 01:33:25 AM »
Attaching....  Can see a lot of my W and myself in your posts.   

Hugs / Fistbump
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #94 on: October 14, 2019, 10:21:37 AM »
My W’s B Day was coming up, so I offered to take her and the kids to dinner.  She never really answered.  I kept trying.  The upcoming Sunday, her actual birthday, was planned full with kids sports, but we were to be free in the evening. I asked again, if she would like to do something.  This is now Thursday.  She said maybe, so I texted a group of friends, to offer for all to join us out, for a dinner/ a little celebration.  Not too late, I specified, since she and our 3 kids have school the next day.  W followed my text a few hours later (after several had replied that they were in), to say she was skipping her B Day this year.  She was simply too busy, and wasn’t up for this kind of an event on a Sunday evening. 
Saturday afternoon, she texts me to ask if we could go to dinner, just our family.  We went, and had a nice time.  Sunday came, and after the second game with my oldest, she declares she is not cooking, and we should go out with friends.  Which we do, (but not the whole group originally invited) and she acts like she is having the most wonderful time.
This was followed by a Facebook post, Thank you so much for the Amazing Birthday wishes.  I love and treasure each of you in your own way.

Ahh… the confused mind of an MLCer.  It's enough to drive me Crazy.  And I'm not the Crazy One!!

Offline Optimus360Topic starterTopic starter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: How can she
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2019, 06:54:28 AM »
I’ve been reading other posts here on HS.  They usually help ground me.   Now I’ll give an update to mine.
I have a big birthday coming up, and my MLC W threw a party.  She planned a big event with lots of people, many friends and family, music, food, and drinks.  She even invited my best Life Long Friend in from across the country, and surprised me.  Between the party, being social, going out for lunches, watching football, and taking care of the kids, to let me and my friend have some time to catch up, she was on her best behavior.  We had a great weekend, and she was acting so much like her old self.  The woman who loved to entertain and have fun socially.  It even seemed like a little flirting at one point.
At least this time I didn't get my hopes up, as I knew what was coming.  And yes, by week’s end, she was back to the brooding, unhappy woman who lives in the spare room downstairs.  It feels like being up and happy simply wore her out.
It’s been said on this site many times; how the difficulty for the LBS is amplified by seeing their spouse's old self come back from time to time.  But they always run back into hiding.  I guess that is the fog?   Who can tell, but man is it rough on the rest of us!

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk
Legal Disclaimer

The information contained within The Hero's Spouse website family (www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com, http://theherosspouse.com and associated subdomains), (collectively 'website') is provided as general information and is not intended to be a substitute for professional legal, medical or mental health advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. The Hero's Spouse cannot be held responsible for the use of the information provided. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a trained medical or mental health professional before making any decision regarding treatment of yourself or others. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a legal professional for specific legal advice.

Any information, stories, examples, articles, or testimonials on this website do not constitute a guarantee, or prediction regarding the outcome of an individual situation. Reading and/or posting at this website does not constitute a professional relationship between you and the website author, volunteer moderators or mentors or other community members. The moderators and mentors are peer-volunteers, and not functioning in a professional capacity and are therefore offering support and advice based solely upon their own experience and not upon legal, medical, or mental health training.