[Onward]

An interesting discussion. Just adding a little twist to it, since I'm not really a fan of close-ended questions :-)


1) As an inclusive forum, HS welcomes standers and those who are not/no longer standing. An interesting open-ended reflective question might be:

To what degree, and in what specific ways, does one's identification as a stander, or not, frame one's individual participation in discussion? (For clarity, suggest standing as defined here:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand.html)

2) I think the more open ended question here is what influence does NC have on connection between a couple? And extrapolating from that, what influence does connection play in reconciliation?

3) Since "bitter" is in the eye of the beholder, maybe the more open-ended reflective question here is, in what ways do the experiences of divorce, and the experiences of long-term standing influence the advice provided on HS?

[hawk]

There is no joy in divorce. 

But there is joy in being free and single.

Yeah well this is the weirdest thing Honour, l had 10 x more fun and offers when l was married than l'm getting single. lt drives me nuts now because hey, l'm single , l've been dumped, l can do what l want now yet , although yeah there's beena few women but nothing even close to what was around when l was married, same with partying on offer,
Must be that wedding ring thing.

[hawk]

Just on the outside thread thing, l also reckon on one hand we should be able to start discussions if that's what you wanna call it about anything we want , your own  thread doesn't work with that.

Though in saying that , l can also get, and respect the club wanting to keep the focus on mlc'g, standing and whatnot, bc it is a very serious thing, hugely so and what it's about.

[Passiflora]

Just on the outside thread thing, l also reckon on one hand we should be able to start discussions if that's what you wanna call it about anything we want , your own  thread doesn't work with that.

I'm with Hawk on this one!

I would like to read about things and ideas what you LBS's did for your "healing process ". Not so much GALing stuff more like this;  someone wrote B12 is good for anxiety. I did not know this!

[Seekingpatience]

Hi All.
 

Disclaimer here is that I haven't gone through the thread.  I am read the ending kinda reader then I backtrack. Reverse engineering maybe.

Onward's questions I think are interesting cos I was reading on another forum thread " what brought you HERE" as opposed to anywhere else I suppose.

An interesting discussion. Just adding a little twist to it, since I'm not really a fan of close-ended questions :-)

1) As an inclusive forum, HS welcomes standers and those who are not/no longer standing. An interesting open-ended reflective question might be:

To what degree, and in what specific ways, does one's identification as a stander, or not, frame one's individual participation in discussion? (For clarity, suggest standing as defined here:http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand.html)

I came here from survivinginfidelity because of a lot of "kick him to the curb" messages and wanted to find somewhere that didn't think I was crazy for wanting my marriage despite infidelity and H's totally out of character behaviour.  Also I wanted the  "long marriages" perspective  not the boyfriend/girlfriend or short term relationship perspective.

In that I mean, if the BF/GF or H cheated during the wedding or before, it just seemed like they were dealing with a whole different animal from a decades long "ordinary/sometimes squabbling up down" marriage that not only went South but followed the Penguins to an inhospitable land.

I have from the start believed in the site banner "Dealing with Midlife crisis and infidelity when you don't want a Divorce". I learned what a stand was and that it was what I wanted to do.  I have also been over to Heartsblessings site where she has a wonderful array of quotes and one that sticks to me most is that there are no guarantees but where there is love there is always hope.

And I agree with HB when she says over and over the MLCer is not "sick" but the MLCer is not "Monster" either, their behaviour stems from being in pain and lost and is often hurtful and cruel and that it is best to detach from such behaviour but to also have compassion and be able to switch to and from " detached" when the situation warrants it. I found it really hard to do and am still working on it honestly.

Whatever contribution to a discussion I make is purely from a personal perspective  and I refrain (not always successfully) from commenting when it is outside my " this is what happened to me, this is how I dealt with it and this is the result" kind of thing usually. I love the support from those who have been there but like I hear a lot, "take what you need and leave the rest" because you are the only one in your situation when it comes down to it  and you know best.

2) I think the more open ended question here is what influence does NC have on connection between a couple? And extrapolating from that, what influence does connection play in reconciliation?

I really think it is again a question of timing and the situation you find yourself in. Physically abusive situations on one hand and seductive charming cake eating on the other. Both are damaging. 

At BD, I was a mess. After a few weeks, I told IC/MC I needed to separate from H. Looking back we were already in separate countries, so it was an emotional and I think spiritual separation I knew had to happen.  But as H was a clinging cake eater boomerang , I had not only to dig deep and find my emotional and spiritual centre but also to have it tested again and again. But with each interaction, I not only discovered what I wanted but what I wouldn't accept anymore.  So for me, interaction sparked mirror work.

For H, he says that it did as well. When he saw me able to speak my "truth" he knew came from in me, he questioned why he could not do the same. This by the way was only from the last MC session on Monday  so it has been a recent "dawning realisation" as he calls it.

It is a journey that is so different yet the same for the MLCer and LBS, a journey towards wholeness and healing as HB says, whether the outcome is with or without a restored marriage. But I believe that reconnection is not Reconcilliation because of this journey neither is the same. However, reconnecting requires two so interaction between two parties must be taking place for that to happen.

Again, timing is delicate because the two parties are not at the same stages of dealing with personal issues, one has  done mirror work while the other has been the champion avoider of mirror work. And this goes both ways. I know I have my own demons to face, awakened by the crisis, of being fixer and trust issues galore.  Patience and compassion has to come and go both ways in reconnecting. My $0.02

3) Since "bitter" is in the eye of the beholder, maybe the more open-ended reflective question here is, in what ways do the experiences of divorce, and the experiences of long-term standing influence the advice provided on HS?

I find some really long term Standers who have come back to share and update, the most inspirational people and I thank them.

 Peace and strengh

[in it]

I hear you Stayed. I wish I had gone NC sooner. It may have dawned on me just what I was trying to deal with.I'll hit the 3 year mark in a couple of months. And also wish I had left the marriage sooner.

If LBS's maybe viewed NC from the perspective of leaving the MLcer alone ( maybe even try to look at it as any contact will hinder or hold up the process) and also not allowing the mlcer to "run the show" ( boundaries) in the Lbs's life.

 Let go of control and for peace of mind resign as being general manager of the universe.

An LBS may slow down the process by engaging in conversations that go no where and keep both people stuck. Or any toxic cycle or game. Any contact may do damage that you might not even be aware of. It can manifest physically after an encounter.

 What I've done to help heal:

Post here, get feedback, read (although that has kind of moved into reading about NPD). Not because I'm interested so much, more like how to deal with people who exhibit the behavior of it and then reading about how you heal from it...recognize it and either learn how to deal with it in a person in your life or just admit to yourself it just isn't worth the energy or effort.

 It's a personality disorder that everyone else ends up in therapy for while the person who has it goes untreated. Then they sit back and say "See I told you she was crazy or something is wrong with her. 

It has helped for me to try to learn to not take negative things people say or do personally.

 For me it has been mostly cry and allow myself to feel again. I am working on not crying as easily. I just find crying helps with the stress.

 I SLEEP.( again helps me escape stress) ..drink WATER (lots of it) vitamins B12, Vita D, Magnesium.

And laugh whenever I can- again a great stress reliever.

 And to try to help me get passed the grief over my children I have started going to a hypnotist.

Working helps so I don't have the time to dwell on things.

I need to add exercise to the list. And cut back on or quit smoking.

The flashbacks have been gone for a while now. The triggers somedays are worse if I'm tired.

Surround myself with supportive friends and relatives I do have.

NC might give each the time to work through some of the more painful issues that need to be addressed in themselves. Whether a reconciliation presents itself or not. (reconciliation not happening in my case)

 As far as opposite sex relationships:

I have quite a bit more outer and inner peace..no RL drama. I do not date or have any "situationships". I'm not interested in complicating my life currently. I have been hurt enough and I do not wish to hurt anybody else.

I try to breathe more deeply not panic as some days I stress out and can get overwhelmed easily.

 I do not believe everything or anything people post has to be positive. Counting blessings is a positive thing and being grateful for what we have and all the good there is really does need to take the front seat. Not easy sometimes.

 We all need a place to vent to remove some of the negative. That also helps as it can help others and maybe not feel so alone with the challenges dealing with this creates. Anger isn't necessarily negative. It might even reveal what myself or someone else might need some help with. Like for me it's patience...

And that's not because I was some spoiled brat and things went my way or happened in some timely fashion. It's because I have always been pretty patient and it's gotten out of balance with me not putting me first.

In that relationship:

Because my needs were either unmet and feelings dismissed. I stopped expressing them BECAUSE that was the surest way for me not to get the need met or feel heard or listened too.

I would just keep my mouth shut wait and see if anybody really gave a $h!te. Guess what? They didn't.
 

[Faithfully Yours]

For me I keep saying that I refuse to be bitter because then MLC has definitely won.  MLC can take my marriage and it can take my H and it can even take my identity of being married to my high school sweetheart but I will not allow it to take the essence of who I am!

Really Trying: I love this statement and it is really true for me as well. MLC has been hard in so many ways, but the worst part has been not being able to be with the only man I have ever known. Looking at him and knowing the real him is being held prisoner in those cold dead eyes, is heartbreaking. I am like many on this Forum. I don't know where I fall. Am I standing? Not really, but I am not necessarily dating either. I just take it day by day. I pray that I can help the newbies and maybe help those who are struggling and I think that is what we all need at certain points in this process.

Hugs to you and thank you for sharing your words.
FY

[Trustandlove]

Just thought I'd comment, not sure how coherent I'm feeling but I'll give it a go.

Just to declare my perspective, I have been on this forum since its inception, I'm also still standing.  I'm not legally divorced, my MLCer is a boomerang who has had multiple OWs and many changes in his life during this mess.  Currently we're not really in touch, but we went through a long period of reconnection (not reconciliation) last year.    I'm still learning a lot. 

1 -- of course this should be an inclusive forum, I do also feel (it may not be true, it's just a feeling) that the forum appeared to be more geared towards supporting standing in the early days, but I also agree with what RCR wrote on her blog about the community growing and changing.  People often comment that we don't see many reconciliations, my own view is that the first place I wouldn't be if we were reconciling would be here, and I think that forms part of it.  I think many (possibly me as well) thought that this would be "the answer", and then get disillusioned when things don't happen the way we wanted, so think that "standing doesn't work".  I take RCR's point that standing is risky, both emotionally and possibly financially.  But this remains, as far as I can see, the only place that does support standing, so many other places are harsher. 

I do think that our own views absolutely influence how we write to others; what I might say to someone would be I'm sure quite different than the advice given by someone who was "done". 

As to general negativity; we do of course come here to vent, but I also remember RCR saying that venting needs to release anger, not fuel it by calling our MLCer names, etc. 

2. -- regarding NC, I do think that communication overall is needed in order for a reconciliation to take place, but NC does have significant benefits -- IF APPROPRIATE.  Perhaps that can be used as a boundary to the clingiest clingers, but otherwise it is for the protection of the LBS -- to gain some space, to gain perspective, and, crucially, to avoid what another wise LBS friend of mine called "shrapnel" -- the flinging about of nasty things in either direction.  Too much shrapnel can be damaging; a period, even a very short one, of NC can keep both us and them from saying or doing things that we really would regret. 

In my case right now I am not contacting my H; the last time we spoke he flung huge amounts of shrapnel in my direction, right now I'd rather not give him the opportunity do do more.  It also means I'm not contacting him about small things as I might have done when we were connecting more, but of course if a child were to end up in hospital I'd be on the phone right away.    I will take a view on this as time progresses. 

I remember from the articles RCR saying that if something is bad for us (the LBS) personally, it is likely harmful to our stand, so if being bombarded by shrapnel harms us, it harms our stand. 

NC is not meant as punishment, as I understand it. 

3 -- I can't comment on the "divorced, bitter moderators", I don't know those. 

[in it]

I agree NC isn't a punishment.

For me I look at it as a protective measure to allows me to self reflect and get a handle on my emotions and get some perspective.  Read and educate myself. Regain confidence, self worth, and some control over my own life..

Again everybodies different and not everyone might deal with monster the way others do.

 Or even the back and forth thing (clinging boomerang) if you get on that ride or you may wait for them to make some kind of decision. If it's confusing and hurting you? You get to decide when you have had enough. You may not be giving up. You just simply will know when enough is enough.

 You get to make decisions too! Whatever works for you.

[Thunder]

I would like to address something hawk said.

YES, I do think it is the ring....AND the "T" sign (taken) on your forehead that attracts a lot of women.
You're safe.  You are committed, which is attractive.  You're not a player.

My H thought the same thing.  Why all these opportunities when I was married?  Where are they now?

I told him...you took your ring off.  You think by taking it off it opens avenues for you but it's just the opposite.  You should have left it on.