[Mara]

Thank you @poussin en @osb. Great posts

[kikki]

Zen master trick - and actually, isn't there a martial art in which you move only in defense? Aikido, I think? You land no blows, but use your opponent's weight and momentum against them, so any move they make will see them lying on the ground seeing stars.

This beautifully sums up the art of handling a MLC clinger.  Thank you osb.

[calamity]

My heart sinks when I see that osb has posted because it means I'm going to have to think & that will interfere with my couch potato time...    Hmmm Aikido?


PS. I downloaded Blake, Songs of innocence etc. onto my iphone within about 60 seconds of reading that particular post.


Thanks osb.

[31andcounting]

Calamity ...your dry wit always brings a slight smile to my face!
For me its kind of simple. No one likes being judged.
31

[hawk]

Cross roads of sorts for me. lately l've given up on what's left of my marriage, divorced marriage actually.
But reading things, seeing things, l don't know if giving up is doing the right thing.

What makes you think he or she is gonna wanna R one day , when what you see and what your getting is the opposite ?
The clingers and boomerangs , yeah l can see in peoples stories yeah sure , those types are stuck and they're caught between going or staying , thay just aren't quite sure wtf they're doing.
But what if yours isn't , what if they've been off doing their new thing since day one , they've divorced you , and they're still off doing their new thing ?
What in hell would make us think that might change, why would we even think it might change ?

l see and hear of couples in RL getting back or remarrying , one couple got back 5 times. He's with someone else now , dunno what she's doing but the original split was her racing off with his best friend. He said they won't be ever getting back now.
My mum and dad found their way back together after 15yrs , but they never ever lived apart and no one moved out. Just sep' bed rooms.

l see things about especially here and l've asked it too myself.  lf there is nc and GAL stuff, or of there is no talk or mention of the us , or the standing, or of the way you still feel , or of them knowing you are still there, then they will give up and go on with their new life even if they did have doubt times.

What's got me thinking about all this is l feel l am at crossroads. Because even though from about 12 mths out , l pretty well have done my thing and mentally lived as is we will never R , and then the divorce came along and l thought well , that is def' that then.
But l still see things in w sometimes.
One for example like just the other day l was telling d something and mentioned what someone else had said , a female. W was there and she looked down and pretended not to hear the female part .
l thought that was really strange .
lt could've just been oops , this is where l opt out , other females, none of my business now , but it seemed like more than that, it seemed wifey like.
l thought it was a really strange reaction from here considering she wanted all this.

Just one of many weird things l get that just don't seem to fit the detached going on with their life divorced you adios ex w .
lf you knew my full story before bd , it was mainly about rejection on w's part you see and thinking l didn't love her anymore.

And things like that , all go back to the earlier stuff l mentioned above or B pit it better in his thread - with all the " maybe's " .
Well that's the exact sort of thing l am scratching at here and wondering where others are at and why they still think there is something and stand. Why should we still stand, what have l got to go on , she divorced me and yours probably divorced you and raced of with someone else .

[Thunder]

I smell wood burning.  Someone is doing some heavy thinking.   

I think I understand what you are saying hawk, but every situation is so different.  Every one has their reasons for decisions.
We can only make decisions by what we have.  Do we see any changes?  I would say that is what gives some people hope enough to stand.

Trouble is changes take a LONG time and people give up before they see any.  I can't blame anyone who does that.
It's just an individual thing.

In my case I stood mainly because there was no ow.  I figured why not?  Did I think he may turn back.  Of course I did.  But that's my story.

You'll figure it out hawk.  You'll know when and if you've really had enough.  If you're still doubting it then I'd say you're not done yet.

[Anjae]

Hawk, I've merged the thread you started with the ongoing discussion one. There is a lot of stuff about standing/not standing here.

I guess what makes people think that their MLCer may want back is a trust in the MLC process.

Of course MLC usually takes a very long time, a lot come to pass in our lives, and when our MLCer is finally ready to return we may no longer be interested.

Still, I think one day at a time, is a good think to go by. And what will be, will be.

[hawk]

Spot on thunder and anjae, l was under pressure and made a bit of a jumble of that one racing a dying pc battery  but yeah that was basically what l was getting at.

Say l did wanna R these days which tbh , l'm not sure about anyway but if l did that would mean standing bc hooking up with anyone new would def' finish things in my w's eyes.

So to stand and risk wasting more years , or to not stand and call it a day. But what do other people have to go on if they decide to go on standing , signs or movement or something showing them ?
Well , in my case, that's why l described that one thing thing about w when another girls name came up . lt was only a little thing but as far as w goes that was also a big thing at the same time.
But really , there is only little things in the big picture , l have at all and that's against a lot of huge things , like she divorced me for example , she moved out , she's held her course all this time , they are huge things , things that tell you a person must want out very very badly to do. Om , no idea , there was to start though.

But yet l have these little big things that contradict it all. Like she touches me , she still worries about me , she talks a lot as if she misses our talking , she ran someone she thought l was seeing into the ground and hates her with a passion, or things like she'll act weird if another girls name or mention comes up.  She'll usually happily text back and forth for 4 or 5hours straight  , mainly just d stuff though , nothing personal or life really .
 
But , she's done all this and is still doing it yet l have those weird little things going on in the undertone contradicting it all.

Are they enough to stand, waste more years, do they mean anything at all , really , when she still forges ahead on the other hand, even signed a new lease long term, bought all this furniture?

On one hand l've had this way in my head that life and time will show me and lead me , maybe someone new , maybe w , it'll just happen .
But on the other , no not really , bc if she thinks l've moved on and given up she'll never turn back , that's how she ticks.

So these are the sorts f thing l question right now bc it is a turning point for me and one way will 99% surely end things with w and any R . Yet l see people still standing here , with even less to go on but others with more , like thunders for example, he spends time with her, no ow. l mean there , there is something to go on .

Just on the other stuff here that seems to be going on about standers . l have the ultimate respect for standers and it seems bizarre  crazy, that anyone in a forum about actually standing and the real heros, would even suggest standers weak or whatever.
Standing is tough stuff , it's sacrifice that could be for years , it's faith , and it must be love .
Racing off with someone new after 6 or 12 mths , a yr or 2,  the minute they start to miss out on their attention or sex or lonely or can't stand on their own 2 feet, to me that's weak, that's not real love.
lf there is someone in life later, then l'd want her to be the type of person that could and would stand, not the weak one that races of the minute the going gets a little tough with the what abouts me me me's stuff.

[kikki]

Pondering. I was watching a documentary on television last night about a storm ravaged island group in the pacific. A few of the local people were interviewed. One said that a particular nation of volunteers, in general, were especially helpful as they came in with the attitude of 'what can we do to help?', 'what do you need me to help with?', rather than 'you need to do this and this and that'. 
I consider this philosophy a good fit for a forum of hurting LBS too.

We actually aren't really here talking about MLC on this thread.  We are talking about behaviours, light switch changes of personality, and we are talking about the brain and brain science. What made our spouses go cray cray in a certain age range. Psychology has had very little to offer in this department so far.  I think we're all looking forward to the day when someone has done a concrete study on this, but as osb said earlier, that is unlikely given the mid life jokes that abound.

The happiness u-curve studies were a media hit when they came out.  I contacted one of the researchers involved in the study, to ask if he knew of anyone studying the changes of behaviours and personality that many of us here are dealing with.  I received a very polite and concerned reply that no, that was nothing that he had heard that anyone was studying and that my husband should seek psychiatric help immediately. 
We all know that that was not happening.

The closest fit that I have found in what is being offered today is that he might be one of the 10% to have their first major bipolar episode at midlife.  Any psychologists that I have talked to have suggested that would be the most likely explanation. But it explains only some of the behaviours that the boys and I have seen and had to navigate all of these years.

And I'm open to the fact that in 10, 20, 30 years time, the 'best fit' explanation may be something else all together.

[Ready2Transform]

Agreed on all counts, kikki. As I've said exhaustively during my time here on the forum, my xH was diagnosed bipolar and if the professionals treating him didn't disregard that, neither can I. Add in quitting his meds cold turkey, and it may not have caused his crisis, but certainly, that did not help it.

I do think MLC as an umbrella term is accurate. Like my father and I discussed months ago and I believe I also shared on my thread, it seems to be comparable to COPD in that way, with emphysema and asthma certainly being different disorders, but both fitting into the category. I do think we've got a wide range of folks here with different causation, but what we can give to each other on the common ground is what most counts. And many times, that's just the freedom to say what we need to and have some level of validation that our own process matters, no matter who we are or what experience we have.