Against my better judgement I am going to respond to a few of the points made in this post.
MyBrainIsBroken,
This is a comment to a post on another thread, but I feel it is better put on your own story thread.
While you [RainbowGal] were bearing witness, did you happen to notice Stayed and one or two others directing personal attacks at my family on my thread? Attacking my daughter and granddaughter who they have never met? Did you notice me closing the thread to put an end to the attacks? Did you notice Stayed abusing her power as a moderator by reopening my closed thread so that she could attack my family again? But I'm the who who gets publicly chastised?
Are you referring to the incident from 3 months ago?
Not all moderators are so attentive that they notice when a thread is locked and since we have posting abilities on locked threads...well we make mistakes.
I was taught to apologize when I make a mistake. In fact, I did apologize to the forum in the post that's referenced here. I wrote that I'm sorry if I've used sarcasm in any of my posts and I meant it. But I have a hard time believing Stayed made a mistake because I've never received any indication of remorse or regret. In fact, I was told that's just how she is. And this will be post 3738 for me on the forum and I've started and finished well over a dozen threads of my own and this is the first time I've ever seen a thread accidentally reopened by a moderator. So I'm sorry if I've misjudged Stayed but I haven't experienced anything that would make me believe her posting on my thread after it was closed wasn't intentional.
You don’t have to believe that Stayed did not realize the thread was locked and that's fine; I believe she didn't realize it. As for her comment being an attack. [SIGH] It certainly pulled no punches. I have said that a person can be attacking and yet not intending to attack. But I don’t think her post was an attack; I think it was said in a hmmm, harsh or tough way, whereas I or someone else may have tried to say the same thing or message with a softer approach and maybe her message did not come through.
I was taught that you can attract more flies with honey than vinegar. I realize not everyone learned the same lessons but I have reason to believe this statement is true.
I've looked back at the incident and read the excerpt—though maybe what I read was only a part, so I might not have it all. (I also read it 3 months ago, but needed a refresher now) I think I can see how her message may not have come through because even I have to guess at it. As I said she pulled no punches in being tough about how she spoke, but I guess she may not have been direct in what her words meant. I have an idea what she may have meant, but I may be wrong.
I also believe I understood what her words meant but I also acknowledge that I could be wrong. My interpretation is based on my previous interactions with Stayed, just as I suspect yours are based on your previous interactions with her. And you and I are in entirely different positions when we interact with Stayed.
Without quoting I will attempt to say what she said. She said that your daughter is a case of learned helplessness. Now understand that all most of us here have to go on is what you have posted and given what you have posted and given that I think she makes an excellent point. Take the sting out of it and just read the message...P-L-E-A-S-E. Maybe that comment alone was not what was so upsetting though. She then poor babied you. Poor you, poor wife, poor daughter...
This was derisive and demeaning towards me and my family and it didn't help Stayed get her message across in any way. Would it have worked with somebody else? I don't know because I don't address people like that.
I did the poor baby thing to Chuck once during his MLC—and it was deliberate at that time. I said something like Oh poor baby doesn't like it when I call him on his $h!te. I said it in a sing-song baby voice, so yeah it was a tease and I was not trying to be nice; in that circumstance it was a Truth Dart and it was not one he was meant to like. It was meant to shock him a bit and it did. But with him it was one of those things where he said stop treating him like a baby and I said he made a good point, but it would be a lot easier if he stopped acting like one...and for him that jolted him and he acknowledged my point.
I understand this is an example but for the record I never asked Stayed to quit treating me like a baby.
So for you, why was Stayed doing/saying that to you in that way? I got the opportunity to explain my words to Chuck. What was Stayed's message, maybe that is what you lost? I got it I think and so did a lot of us and I think I told her at the time it wasn't working with you, even though that sort of thing works quite effectively with others.
So why not with you? Okay, more guessing here...
When a person is in denial, they are not going to see the part between the lines and I think you are in denial.
I wish you were right. I'd love to be in denial. Unfortunately, I have to live with this situation every day of my life.
You are an enabler (and likely codependent, as I think they go together). This is also what LawProfessor was saying to you back then.
I really worried that I might be. A few weeks after BD my oldest brother told me I was codependent. He should know. He's an alcoholic with over 25 years of recovery and over the years he's been involved in a lot of situations that involved enabling and codependency. But after a few months of talking with me several times a week he told me he had changed his mind. He said that I'm not codependent. He told me that he had decided that I deeply love and miss my wife.
I started seeing a therapist a few months after BD and continued seeing her weekly for almost 6 months. I also started seeing my pastor, who is very intelligent and a skilled counselor, and I met with him weekly for over a year. After 6 months with my first counselor we decided I was dealing with PTSD related issues. I told her I wanted to see the best trauma therapist she could find and she referred me to the woman I've been seeing for the past 14 months. During that time I've seen her once a week every week even though her office is 90 minutes from my house.
I've asked all of these people multiple times, "What is wrong with me?" I really wanted to know so that I could fix myself. I freely admit that I was damaged during my childhood by the things I experienced and they all agree that I have incident related PTSD that's associated with BD and that I also have Complex-PTSD from childhood. But according to them I'm not codependent, I'm not narcissistic, I'm not BPD or a sociopath or afflicted with any other personality disorder. They did tell me that I'm highly sensitive, extremely empathic, and deeply in love with my wife.
You daughter is a case of learned Helplessness because you enable her—because you rescue her and take care of her and make sure she has a soft place to fall.
Guilty. Both my wife and I are guilty of having enabled my daughter. We knew it. We discussed it. And we agreed that we didn't like it but that we were going to do it anyway. I don't need to justify our decision but I will explain why we made this decision.
Eight years ago my daughter's husband was cheating on her. No MLC. He was just a broken person. She gave him several chances, took him back several times, then finally decided she'd had enough. She had him served with divorce papers. Two days later he killed himself. He went to a property his father owned where they'd gone the week before for a picnic, found a tall tree, and hung himself. She was there when his body was found. He left her with a 6 year old daughter, a 3 year old son, and an infant son. And his death practically destroyed her.
But the story gets better. She wanted to go to his funeral. He had cheated on her and she was divorcing him but she hadn't stopped loving him. Hard to believe, right? Well, she almost didn't go to his funeral because his whole family blamed her for his suicide. One of his aunt's even told her that he'd still be alive if she hadn't had him served. But the aunt didn't need to tell her that because she already believed it. So we accompanied her to the funeral and we supported her and helped her to get through it.
So this was her background. And now she's a single mother with three children and a high school diploma living in a society that makes it almost impossible for someone in her situation to ever get off from public assistance. Add to this the area we live in, which is part of Appalachia and is one of the poorest areas in our state with few job opportunities.
So the only sensible thing for her to do is to go out and get another man to take care if her, right? Isn't that what you'd do? Well she did. Several guys, one after the other, who were just as broken as her and she would up supporting them instead of them helping to support her. But at least she didn't have to be alone.
The other option she had available to her was to move out of the area and away from the family that was providing her with emotional support and go someplace where there would be more opportunity. But she didn't want to move, our grandchildren didn't want to move, and we didn't want them to move. So we selfishly decided to enable her although we considered it to be a subsidy that made it possible for her to continue to live near us.
Hey, we get wanting a soft place to fall for those we love, but there also comes a time when the person needs to learn to solve their own problems and that involves a big risk because they might fail and you are really worried not just about what might happen to your daughter, but what of her children—it's not their fault if she messes up, right? Why should they suffer for that?
The poor babying also is a message about being a victim and sometimes a martyr. You seem to wallow a lot. You have been feeling sorry for yourself and it is important to be needed and you daughter is needy for you; maybe you feel you have a purpose.
You don't know me at all. I haven't spent one moment of one day my entire life feeling sorry for myself. I've been blessed and I know it. I'm a reasonably tall, intelligent, well educated white male who grew up in a society where all of those characteristics were highly prized and I live in a country where I've had the opportunity to do whatever I chose with my life. But I do feel sorry for my daughter and my grandchildren because of the situation they're in and I feel sorry for my wife because I don't think she would have chosen to do the things she's doing if she weren't going through an MLC and because she didn't ask to be emotionally, physically, and sexually abused when she was a child.
As far as my daughter being needy, you have that backwards. I'm the needy one. I need the connection that I have with her and my grandchildren. I have spent time with her and my grandchildren almost every day since BD. On BD she was the one who held me while I cried at 3am. She was the one who drove 20 miles to be with me the day I decided I'd lived too long. I don't know how I would have gotten this far without her and my grandchildren.
I've been told that there are a couple of terms that describe my condition better than to say that I'm wallowing. One is situational depression. My pastor tells me I'm depressed because I'm in a depressing situation. He says he'd be surprised if I weren't depressed. The other term is ambiguous grief which is a grief that is unresolved due to being in an ambiguous situation, like living on the MLC rollercoaster.
Well, you have a bigger purpose than taking care of and rescuing others. What you are doing is crippling her. What would happen to her if you were suddenly not there to rescue her—like if a bus suddenly ran you down and RIP MyBrainIsBroken. My Mom's goal as a parent was to raise a healthy well-adjusted adult. She came to that in a class she was taking and she either finalized it there or later while teaching pre-school. It's good, but I think I've revised it to show some of the things that must be a part of that. In addition to my mother's original goal, my goal is to raise independent and fully-functioning adults—those are natural byproducts of her goal. Sometimes I say independent-minded to include a scenario of physical dependency.
I guess you're a better parent than I am. But what would you do if you were raising children and you weren't a healthy, well-adjusted adult and you didn't even realize it? And when you finally become more emotionally mature you find that your grown daughter is not a healthy, well-adjusted adult? And then her husband kills himself? And then your wife goes into MLC? How do you deal with that?
Is your daughter an independent, well-adjusted and fully functioning adult? And if she is not, why?
I think I've already answered this.
What can be done now to get her to that place? What can be done to get your children there? Are you helping or hindering? Sometimes helping hinders, are you doing that instead?
Since BD my granddaughter has become a member of our church. Then both grandsons were baptized. A couple of weeks ago my daughter was baptized and she has been attending church regularly. This Sunday both grandsons are scheduled to become members of our church. Six months ago my daughter finally admitted she needed help, which was huge for her. Shortly after that she began treatment for depression and PTSD. My granddaughter is being treated for depression and PTSD. My grandson is being treated for depression and other issues related to his father's suicide. After her husband's death my daughter went from one relationship to another, always with guys who were broken, because she couldn't stand to be alone. She recently spent over a year without being in a relationship. She told me it was because she realized she needs to be healthy if she's ever going to have a healthy relationship. She got that idea from talking with me. She just started seeing someone; a really nice guy who is the son of an old friend of mine. He's very kind and very supportive and has probably done more for her in the short time she's been seeing him than all of the other guys did put together. All of this has happened since BD.
That's not to say that everything is roses and rainbows. It's not good that they have these issues but at least now they're being treated. It looks like we're making progress but it takes TIME. I'm sure you're familiar with that concept. On the negative side, last October GD14 was hospitalized following a suicide attempt. She told my wife she did it because she couldn't stand to see her grandma hurting everyone. GS11 is in the hospital now because he has been having suicidal urges. He told the counselors he misses his father. This isn't an easy situation that I'm living with. Maybe I do occasionally wallow. I don't know. Sometimes life is hard. That's not a complaint. It's just an observation. Please don't accuse me of feeling sorry for myself.
Am I helping? I know without my emotional and financial help my daughter would have jumped into another relationship, most likely another bad one. I know without my guidance she probably wouldn't have decided she needed help and gone for counseling. Without my leadership none of them would be involved with the church because there were a lot of Sundays where I was going by myself. Maybe somebody else could have done better. I don't know. Maybe I should have done better but it is what it is. My intentions were good. But who knows? They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I'm not trying to imply you are or are not with my questions; I'm giving you questions to ask for yourself.
Thank you. I'm trying hard to not write a sarcastic response here. I'm extremely introspective and I've asked myself these questions over and over. I don't seem to be able to come up with different answers or better solutions but I'll admit that my brain is broken.
You are an enigma to me in many ways.
This is good. If I ever decide to try dating I've been told that women love a mystery man. That was a joke. Haha.
This is why I prefer face to face communications. There's a lot of opportunity for miscommunication in this type of forum.
You seem as though you care a lot and in that you seem a sweet and kind man.
Thank you. My friends would agree with you and I think my EMS patients would also agree with you. My enemies wouldn't but I don't have any enemies in RL, only on THS.
But then you also seem like you are a codependent enabler who is stuck in victim-mode and who lashes out when you feel threatened—perhaps when someone says something that shows you a mirror.
Don't hold back. Feel free to say what you think. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. 
Actually, I mean that. Say what you want to about me. I thought it was kind of funny when the cowboy was calling me a girly boy or whatever it was. It still makes me laugh. I find it easy to ignore comments that I know are not true. But I'm extremely loyal and fiercely protective of my family and friends. Maybe in that respect I am a rescuer but I don't care. If you mess with my family or friends I take it personally.
Being kind and being a victim are not mutually exclusive, but I usually sense one or the other.
You are also pretty darned amazing...I mean seriously, you run marathons!
Thank you but running is easy. All you have to do is put one foot in front of the other.
What that says to me is that you can be mentally strong because in some areas of your life you are. Now take the skills and attitude you use there and apply them to the other areas of your life. Maybe that is why you can be frustrating—we know you can do what you are not doing.
Really? You only know what I've chosen to write. In reality I'm not even a man. I'm actually a 43 year old woman.
OK, I have to take that back because I have friends here who are on FB and know the truth. But you don't really know what I'm doing and you don't know what I'm capable of doing and I don't believe that you know what I should be doing. This is what I find frustrating. I'm not a baby. I have a mind of my own and I'm not afraid of using it. And I'm open minded enough to listen to whatever anybody suggests. And I think there are a lot of other LBSes here like me. So feel free to make suggestions but don't tell us your (other forum members) way is right and ours is wrong unless you have empirical evidence to support it. And when it comes to MLC that's in pretty short supply.
Disclaimer!!
I am not a therapist; I have no training in counseling. I offer no guarantees with my coaching-advice.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/coaching.html
No disrespect intended. I post this to point out that there are very few counselors posting in this forum and none that I know of are providing counseling services through the forum. And even if there were, I don't believe many counselors have the training to understand MLC. So we're receiving support and ideas here, which is great, but not we're not expecting counseling or advice.
This is an excellent site. I wish I had never needed a site like this one but since I do I'm glad that I found this site. The articles are well written, insightful, and informative and I like the Jungian tie-in. The forum for the most part has been very helpful and supportive and I've had the opportunity to chat on here with people from around the world who I've never met in person but consider to be good friends. I'd love to be able to travel the world some day and meet each and every one of my THS friends. That would be a glorious trip!
But it would be even better if I could take my wife on that trip with me. I came here because I wanted to reconcile with my wife. I still do. I understand that some LBSes change their mind over time and I'm ok with that but I don't expect to be one of them. But so far I haven't found one person who can tell me what I can do to ensure my wife will return, not one person who can tell me indisputably when she will return, and not one person who can guarantee she will return. But I do occasionally run across members telling me or others what we need to do. Sometimes passionately declaring what should be done or what shouldn't be done. Their way or the highway. I agree with most of the things that are suggested for the betterment of the LBS but even those should be suggestions, not dictates. We all have unique situations and we may all have circumstances that nobody on THS is aware of. I would normally make exceptions for newbies but I would expect that moderators would present their comments as suggestions, not as dictates.
12 step meetings are very powerful tools for recovery. One that I'm personally familiar with is Alanon. One of the basic principles of Alanon is that we offer our own experience, strength, and hope, focusing on our own life, without criticizing others. Nobody in Alanon has ever told me I'm codependent or that I'm an enabler. And if they did feel I was codependent or an enabler they would offer their experience with codependency and enabling, trusting that I would be smart enough to see myself in their words if they're right about me. That might be a good model to follow.In a typical AL-ANON meeting, participants share and listen to the experiences, strengths and hopes of one another on a confidential and anonymous basis. Most AL-ANON meetings focus at first on a topic delivered by a lead-off speaker, followed by participants speaking about how that topic relates to their own lives or about other experiences in their lives. Participants are not required to speak, but when they do, they are encouraged to share their own experience, strength and hope, focusing on their own life without gossip or criticism of one another.
One final comment. I just read Onward's posts and in the interests of full disclosure I should state that Onward and I are in cahoots. And also that I've been waiting for a long time to use the word cahoots in a sentence. 
Catching Up, Still Confused
Author
Topic: