[Velika]

Mermaid, I know I can't fix my MLCer. I don't think it's unhealthy to try to understand. I actually think it is a positive to discuss -- amongst ourselves, with our friends and family. There have been a lot of strides in areas of women's health advocacy -- eg PPD, infertility, breast cancer -- by people breaking taboos and discussing their experiences openly. This helps eliminate shame around the topic and opens the door for more women to share, get help, and for partners to support them correctly. I think ultimately this also creates an extra push for doctors and scientists to more fully address.

You don't have to be an expert about something to be curious about it or ask questions or share what you have learned. I think many people come here not trying to fix their spouse but just to make sense of things. Most people learn very quickly that there is no way to reason with the spouse or persuade them to get help. But I think at bomb drop many of us are assuming our spouse is the same person we have always known. It can take several months at least to realize this is not the case. By then we usually know that the normal ways of interacting with someone will not work with a MLCer. But I think we still need an outlet for our questions and observations.

Perhaps if more people start to discuss this, ask questions, and treat this like the medical issue it likely is then it can be normalized so that spouses/friends/family have better knowledge of how to handle when it hits. My husband is the fourth person in his family to have a MLC in three generations, three of which were very extreme. All of the FOO issues he has stem from these MLCs. So which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Many advocacy movements begin with laypeople with shared common experience to start to discuss. I think it is human nature to want to try to understand.

[kikki]

Nodding my head Velika.  Completely agree with you.

It's a mighty frustrating experience waiting for science to catch up with our experience.
My MLCer said around BD that 'something had shifted in his head'.  Even he initially recognised the sudden and extreme changes.

From what I've read of your experience Mermaid, possibly your H hasn't had the extreme 'light switch' change that our MLCers have had?  There may lie the difference in our attitudes, experiences and the information we are seeking.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Great post, Velika! I think in a way trying to understand what happened to our MLC spouse is a form of working on ourselves because it helps us to figure out how we should respond and ultimately where we want to go with our lives. We may occasionally go down the wrong path, like with bvFTD, but that's not unusual when searching for new insight and even if it does turn out to be the wrong direction often these wrong paths will provide new information, like the relationship between the symptoms of bvFTD and MLC, that can lead us in new directions.

I agree that I'm not qualified to practice psychology or neurobiology or to research and publish in those areas but I don't think that means I'm not qualified to locate and evaluate qualified sources of information about them, read and analyze that information, and draw conclusions from it. And there are some pretty smart people on this forum so I don't think I'm the only one who can do these things.

[osb]

I'm enjoying this discussion, thanks Velika. Some similar questions came up on Anjae's thread.

I understand the need to find an explanation. I'm the same, trying to understand what's going on. However, by reading bits and pieces of neurology without a deep insight into medicine, neurology, etc., and cherry picking the bits which seem to make sense, we're likely to go wildly off track. Believing MLC= behavioural variant FTD is an example....    I wonder how many people here are qualified to talk about neuroscience? I think there are one or two who have occasionally posted; likewise psychology.

Moreover, our spouses have only one thing in common... We believe they are in crisis. They may not think that, neither may a psychologist in some cases. In some cases it's apparent that they are confused, or depressed, etc. In other cases they are stressed but not all of them are.
The sooner we accept that we should focus on ourselves rather than fix our spouses, the better we will be.

You make many good points, Mermaid. But I think we perhaps should separate the need to understand (which is actually a road to a kind of clinical detachment) from the unhealthy need to fix. There is no fix for MLC, you're quite right - at least not from our end of the tightrope.

There is likely a biochemical basis for this disorder, as there is a biochemical / neuropsych basis for depression, anxiety, personality disorders, etc etc. It's just that the biochemistry isn't the only explanation (and in life, it's usually an explanation unavailable to us). There are even decent animal models for lower order brain dysfunctions like dementias and depression, so we can know about the biochemistry - but not for complex, higher order processing dysfunctions like MLC, so data are scarce (and frankly nobody gets funded to research something that's considered the punchline of a bad joke!). Yeah FWIW I do have the on-paper qualifications to speculate on this; but humbly, I don't think anyone ought to be disqualified from speculating, that's all we've got right now, no? And eventually, that's how the best hypotheses get winnowed out for testing.

While my H was in crisis, and for months after he ostensibly returned to himself, he steadfastly refused to accept there was anything wrong. H is an emergency doc, and he emphatically didn't do mental health stuff! I had worked in the mental health field before, had put in time as a counselor before segueing into science... and to my eye, H had all the signs (couldn't place my finger on a diagnosis; but then officially, MLC isn't exactly a thing). Even afterwards, H could only stammer "that nonsense was old H talking. I'm not that guy now". Sigh. More recently though, H does admit there was something seriously wrong with his mind during those bad years, with the way he was processing information and handling his anger. This is an N of 1 and not conclusive - every MLCer is a different mix of signs and symptoms, not superimposable - that's much the same with any disease. But someday, if RCR or anyone else tabulates the feedback of MLCers emerging from the fog, there may emerge a consensus that this is MLC is a mental health issue - akin to depression (probably not dementia), perhaps with abnormal cause-effect processing and executive functions, perhaps abnormal amygdala fight-or-flight activity, perhaps things we haven't guessed at yet.

You're all quite right that none of this theorizing changes our own role in the mess. We have to get busy rescuing our own selves, and can't do anything to fix our partners. There isn't a drug, there isn't a cure, and likely there never will be. But I do feel the mental health theory of MLC aided me a bit with achieving compassion/agape for my hapless, raging MLCer (in a nicely detached way). As my kindly mentor kikki once memorably put it, "my H has broken something in his head and that makes him behave this way. I could wish he had broken a leg instead, but this is how it is". Don't have the quote exact, but it sure helped me!

[Velika]

But I do feel the mental health theory of MLC aided me a bit with achieving compassion/agape for my hapless, raging MLCer (in a nicely detached way). As my kindly mentor kikki once memorably put it, "my H has broken something in his head and that makes him behave this way. I could wish he had broken a leg instead, but this is how it is". Don't have the quote exact, but it sure helped me!

I think that this helps with coping as well. Right after bomb drop, I kept telling people, it's not so much the breakup but the personality change that is the most traumatic. It was so shocking, in fact, that whereas in a typical breakup you mourn the loss of the relationship, I think that for me and others on this board this loss becomes secondary to the trauma of sudden, radical behavior and personality shift. Key to this for me (and perhaps others here) is loss of empathy.

I think that understanding this as a neurological event can help the LBS accept that we cannot reach the person we thought we once knew, and central to this is their ability to empathize with us. I believe the ability to empathize is extremely damaged for many MLCers, and so consistently that it does not seem possible that this is simply psychological self defense mechanism. If the MLCer was basically empathetic before the MLC — as most likely were — I think many of us spend a lot of time trying to get through to them in the weeks and months after bomb drop and are additionally traumatized with each encounter.

When we compare notes and look at our own observations, even anecdotally, it is quite possible that many MLCers truly cannot correctly empathize, and that this ability gets worse over time. Knowing this forces the LBS to detach and also to protect him or herself emotionally. When you know that the person you are dealing with cannot empathize, you are forced to seek solace from others, not the MLCer. You don't try to point out their bad behavior to them hoping to shock them out of it. You realize the horse is dead. (This does not make it any less sad.)

Regarding the individual issues that come up during MLC. Perhaps a parallel is a woman who feels extra weepy in the week leading up to her period. Maybe she is crying over something that deep down does bother her — but it is not making her cry the rest of the month. She is able to manage these emotions the rest of the month not because she is choosing to but because her hormones are not affecting her the same way. I remember as an adolescent when I started my period and had never heard of PMS. I didn't understand why I felt so bad sometimes; it made me feel out of control and even ashamed. When I knew what PMS was and how it affected me, then I was able to at least know what to expect and not become overwhelmed by something I knew would pass.

I wonder if MLCers are in some way like this unknowing PMSer. It sounds like some do sense that something is wrong, but it only makes them feel more out of control and ashamed. In that way, even if there is no cure (like there is no cure for PMS, sadly), they might be able to better identify and put their symptoms into perspective with greater awareness of it as a medical issue (not a joke).

CAVEAT: It's possible that I am totally wrong and lack of empathy is just a symptom of affair, as I have read elsewhere. Maybe someone who has MLCer with no affair could address. In my own experience, though, there is a difference between a breakup where one person has emotionally detached, and a breakup where one person cannot empathize. Having been on the initiating and receiving end of breakups (including where I had reached the point where I had detached completely), I know that while some are preceded by fights, accusations, and criticisms, there is usually a basic decency extended to the other person afterwards and a line that is not crossed over and over as you see so consistently with MLC. (E.g. emptying bank account, intentionally flaunting affair, continued harassment.)

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I think that this helps with coping as well. Right after bomb drop, I kept telling people, it's not so much the breakup but the personality change that is the most traumatic.

I agree. And as you realize how significant the changes are to the MLC spouse's personality, you mourn not just the loss of the relationship but also the loss of the person you knew. But then you occasionally see glimpses of the person you used to know and that kicks you into ambiguous, or never-ending, grief.

You're also right about the lack of empathy. If my wife's lack of empathy were limited to me, I might suspect that she can empathize but just doesn't care. But when it extends to our children, our grandchildren, my family, and her family then I can't believe that she just doesn't care.

My wife and my granddaughter were like twins. When my granddaughter told her she had to choose him or us, my wife said she chose him. A couple of months later when my daughter, grandchildren and I returned from a trip and found my wife had come to the house and taken a lot of stuff, my granddaughter called and told her she hated her and wished she had a different grandma. My wife's response was that she would feel differently once grandma had a place of her own. TEN MONTHS LATER with no change, when my granddaughter went to dinner with my wife shortly after my granddaughter was hospitalized for cutting and taking an overdose of ibuprofen she told my wife that she did it because she didn't want to go on seeing her grandma hurting everyone. That was nine months ago and it didn't seem to have any impact. The affair chemicals don't seem to be playing a role any more because she's been making comments about being on her own for the last 19 months. The comments started about 5 months after BD. There must be something else.

[Mermaid]

I'm feeling the need to clarify...

I don't think it's unhealthy to try to understand. I actually think it is a positive to discuss -- amongst ourselves, with our friends and family.

Absolutely, I'm not against trying to understand or to discuss. I'm all in favour of it, as I said. It's partly what this site is about, understanding, to help us cope.
 I'm saying that picking random bits of a complex area like neurology is rife with dangers if you understand little of it. I've seen this on other forums too (nothing to do with MLC). The dangers are obvious to me; people are looking for something that seems to fit, and pick something completely erroneous. It doesn't increase understanding or insight.

There have been a lot of strides in areas of women's health advocacy -- eg PPD, infertility, breast cancer -- by people breaking taboos and discussing their experiences openly. This helps eliminate shame around the topic and opens the door for more women to share

This isn't a question of breaking taboos, it's about getting accurate insight. What taboos are being broken, do you think? Actually, I know I'm being the maverick, by questioning this approach. I don't want to be unkind, just provoke discussion about how we research and how we look at these crises.

You don't have to be an expert about something to be curious about it or ask questions or share what you have learned.

This is true... But I'm questioning back. I was spurred on to do so because of the wildness of some of the conjectures. I'm not suggesting  people should not to think or read... Just to realise that what appears to be an explanation might not be. Realising that, we should read more, deeper, and especially in a more critical way.

I think many people come here not trying to fix their spouse but just to make sense of things.

In the 6 years I've been on this forum, a recurrent problem is LBS wanting to do the right thing to fix their spouse. I passed through that stage too. But yes, as I said, understanding what's going on is a major aspect of this forum.

Obs, thanks for your comments. It's also useful for us to know here who has expertise in some areas. Hopefully you can shed light on some issues.

I've got no doubt that neurology underpins some disorders. Yet we know that, even in cases of clinical depression, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, it's the interaction between the social world, genetic propensity and physical environment which can trigger, worsen or ameliorate the conditions. We can no longer talk about nature and nurture alone, or even social constructivism in isolation. They are interlinked.

However, after 6 years on this forum, and after extensive reading, I really do doubt that what we call MLC is one thing at all. In fact, there's no evidence for it. 10% of American men do have a something they crisis, but it's likely to be a cultural construction as this is not so prevalent outside the US, and absent in some cultures.

I've got no doubt that some people have deep crises. Our spouses on this forum represent a spectrum of these. They are quite different in many ways, as we've often noted. It's quote comforting to label these... Vanisher, boomerang, low/high energy. Obviously many (not all) of these spouses were confused and trying out different roles for themselves to see what worked (mine did... It was strange to watch, and disconcerting). It's confusing for us, so we want to understand. It's comforting to think that there may be hope... But quickly learn from other members to manage our expectations.

However, if we look at all the different variations, they don't add up to one thing. There are cases of clinical and non clinical depression, bipolar disorder, personality disorder, personality changes, immaturity, stress/ burnout, hormonal changes, unresolved issues from childhood or adolescence, and some which just seem like bad behavior.  And that's to name just a few! So increasingly I have found it hard to accept that there is a single neurological malfunction underlying all of this.

Yes, exactly Kikki, my H really didn't have the same "light switch" change as some people have faced. Which is my case in point. There's a huge variety out there.

So in conclusion, I aim to provoke, not to undermine anyone's research. I'm all for it! There was one influential writer on this forum in the early days who said she'd only read one book, because that was all she needed. She didn't question whether it was accurate, or true, she accepted that point of view wholly and simply.

Reading and learning is great, so is discussion, but to avoid serious misconceptions, bias, partial thinking,  etc. we need more  study, analyzing our points of view for accuracy, depth, breadth and relevance, and questioning our assumptions and inferences. 

Love Mermaid xxx

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Reading and learning is great, so is discussion, but to avoid serious misconceptions, bias, partial thinking,  etc. we need more  study, analyzing our points of view for accuracy, depth, breadth and relevance, and questioning our assumptions and inferences. 

This sounds like a good idea but this is an Internet forum, not a peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps if the people who are studying, analyzing, questioning, and publishing in peer-reviewed journals were to show some interest in this topic we might soon learn whether MLC is a thing with multiple ways of presenting or multiple things that are being grouped together and given one label. Perhaps one of those qualified researchers will stumble across our haphazard and misinformed attempts to understand MLC and decide to do some real research and resolve this for us.

[Roma]

Mermaid, thank you.

The only part I disagree with you is if MLC exists or not. There is way too much evidence for me for it not to, despite what the medical community says. And it takes a whole lot to convince me of anything!

I wonder why MLC is not considered and treated as a true disease/condition?

[Mermaid]

Reading and learning is great, so is discussion, but to avoid serious misconceptions, bias, partial thinking,  etc. we need more  study, analyzing our points of view for accuracy, depth, breadth and relevance, and questioning our assumptions and inferences. 

This sounds like a good idea but this is an Internet forum, not a peer-reviewed journal.

It doesn't need to be a peer reviewed article for people to think critically. And thinking critically is only part of what's needed on a peer reviewed article.

Perhaps if the people who are studying, analyzing, questioning, and publishing in peer-reviewed journals were to show some interest in this topic we might soon learn whether MLC is a thing with multiple ways of presenting or multiple things that are being grouped together and given one label. Perhaps one of those qualified researchers will stumble across our haphazard and misinformed attempts to understand MLC and decide to do some real research and resolve this for us.

Um, they have actually. Extensive research out there. The broad conclusions are that there are all forms of crises, and even a few  may happen specifically at midlife. My own H's crisis was, and even among my psychologist faculty colleagues, we still refer to it as his MLC. But looking at his case in particular, I now understand his behavior to be way deeper than a MLC. Looking at the stories I've read on here, he's not the only one.

It's just that MLC is just too much a blanket term for all the varieties of behavior out there.

The only part I disagree with you is if MLC exists or not. There is way too much evidence for me for it not to, despite what the medical community says. And it takes a whole lot to convince me of anything!

I wonder why MLC is not considered and treated as a true disease/condition?

Because it's not one thing only... Although  There are actually psychology specialists who treat crises that arise specifically at midlife.

Cfxyz made the comparison to heart disease. I'll make a comparison to headaches. You can take a pill for a headache, which is fine for primary headaches (if we get tired, have a hangover, etc.), even though these may have different causes (although if they go on, we have to find out what they are) but completely useless for other physical and neurological conditions causing head pain. Tumors, strokes, some types of migraine, aneurysms, poisoning, concussions etc.

Similarly, we're all here to talk about something called MLC... But it's really a symptom, not a disease. The underlying issues vary hugely, as do many of the manifestations.

One piece of research that might be interesting  (actually a whole set) is about the happiness U-curve. Our happiness as a species decreases from our twenties, hits a low point in midlife, then does a U-turn. This happens in all cultures, and even in other ape species.

Could this be a trigger point for those with other issues in their lives?