[Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?]

Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?

Yes, depressed.

5 (12.8%)

Yes, stressed

3 (7.7%)

Severely stressed to the point of burnout, which includes depression

15 (38.5%)

Yes, stressed and depressed

15 (38.5%)

No, neither stressed nor depressed

1 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Voting closed: August 31, 2016, 04:04:04 PM

[Mermaid]

When I looked at the questions, I felt that there were more than one that I could have chosen...would it work to have your top 3 reasons? I ended up adding other for to me, the significant trigger was death of his mother.

I do understand that perhaps only choosing one gives the opportunity for better analysis of what we see.

I wonder what people who have been through a MLC would choose?

I understand that, but these polls don't let us have multiple options, as far as I can see.

Now, for this poll, we're focusing on depression and stress as key factors. I'd like to see if all MLCers have one, the other, or a category that is known as burnout. I don't think that's the same as being overwhelmed. Perhaps that's in the stresses/depressed category? It's also not the same as having a nervous breakdown (esgotamento in Portuguese, esgotamiento in Spanish), which is a psychological category of being unable to cope. (For lack of an alternative, perhaps these can be added to the stresses/depressed category).

Maslach burnout inventory, or MBI, is a specific tool to measure stress specifically as the result of work, and is recognized as a valid reason for taking sick leave in a number of countries. It's recognizes as a valid scale, with internal and external reliability. The MBI Surveys address three general scales:

1. Emotional exhaustion measures feelings of being emotionally overextended and exhausted by one's work
2. Depersonalization measures an unfeeling and impersonal response toward recipients of one's service, care treatment, or instruction. This includes "anhedonia", which is a loss of the ability to feel.
3. Personal accomplishment measures feelings of competence and successful achievement in one's work

Some writers propose 12 stages of burnout, some 4, some 3. In the following, note stages 6-11. Does it look familiar?
My H, an MD, diagnosed himself as high on the burnout scale, and I recognize many of these symptoms. However, at some point, rather than going into total collapse, when OW appeared, he seemed to go into escapist mode. He was contradictory and told me that (a) he could not feel anything, but (b) he was happy when he came home after meeting up with OW. He seemed to be fixed on his need to feel.

1. The Compulsion to Prove Oneself; demonstrating worth obsessively; tends to hit the best employees, those with enthusiasm who accept responsibility readily.
2. Working Harder; an inability to switch off.
3. Neglecting Their Needs; erratic sleeping, eating disrupted, lack of social interaction.
4. Displacement of Conflicts; problems are dismissed, we may feel threatened, panicky and jittery.
5. Revision of Values; values are skewed, friends and family dismissed, hobbies seen as irrelevant, work is only focus.
6. Denial of Emerging Problems; intolerance, perceiving collaborators as stupid, lazy, demanding, or undisciplined, social contacts harder; cynicism, aggression; problems are viewed as caused by time pressure and work, not because of life changes.
7. Withdrawal; social life small or non-existent, need to feel relief from stress, alcohol/drugs.
8. Odd Behavioural Changes; changes in behaviour obvious, friends and family concerned.
9. Depersonalization; seeing neither self nor others as valuable, and no longer perceive own needs.
10. Inner Emptiness; feeling empty inside and to overcome this, look for activity such as overeating, sex, alcohol, or drugs; activities are often exaggerated.
11. Depression; feeling lost and unsure, exhausted, future feels bleak and dark.
12. Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention.

Having said this, it has not been included in DSM-5, and has been criticized for focusing on work burnout, for being fragile in its construction, for being unsystematic in its approach and arbitrary in its categorization of factors, and for being similar to depression. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4459038/#!po=10.7143

But I've included it here as its been mentioned by so many, including my own H.

However, the existence of stress and depression in themselves are not enough to explain what we see as MLC. As xzycf mentioned, there seem to be several factors together, or as OP has said elsewhere, a perfect storm.

I just want to see here if stress/depression/burnout are always present.

[Trustandlove]

I've easily gone for 'stressed and depressed'; the total burnout as described above wasn't the case, although I would certainly say overwhelmed. 

Stress due to general life factors, which we had perhaps more than most with special needs kids and multiples to boot; huge hits starting with his father dying now quite a while ago, then the suicide of one of his best friends.    Hugely stressful work situation, and that had been the case for many years.  Felt huge financial pressure, not helped by the fact that I wasn't earning. 

General tendency to avoid rather than to deal with things head-on meant that he looked for an escape; it didn't help that I was feeling very stressed and probably depressed as well, due to situation with children and other of my own factors. 

He felt overwhelmed with the financial responsibility, and, as he now tells me, "not good enough"; (he didn't say that at BD). 

I had recognised the depression and encouraged him to get help, in the end that was what sent him over the edge -- someone who I at first thought would help turned out to be the original alienator (sound typical??); it was an alternative therapist who in essence "gave permission" for him to release all his selfishness.....   

in a very simplistic nutshell, he chose to blame me for all the problems, figuring if he got rid of me it would sort everything else out.  Put that together with wanting to always feel "in love", and this is what you get. 

I know he always had his insecurities, to me that was what made him human.  He used to always want to prove himself, somewhere that got to be impossible for him (his work environment was geared to cause as much insecurity as possible, I always felt) and it turned to feeling entitled, and that I was somehow to blame for him not having everything he wanted the way he wanted. 

I'm not sure if that therapist fundamentally changed something in his brain, or if he is just particularly stubborn.  In the early days I saw a counsellor who had also met H; even though he only saw that manic, full-on replay MLC H and thought he'd never met anyone with less empathy, he also said that there wasn't really any reason why our marriage shouldn't survive, that all the main factors were there.  RCR also said that she found my case frustrating, as there didn't seem to be big reasons why it shouldn't run it's course and reconcile. 

I still see the despair, when he lets the mask slip, but overall he presents a smiling happy face, doing things for pleasure, and keeping away from any topics that might provoke deeper thinking. 

Like in the beginning, when I suggested (way before I knew about MLC) that he might be depressed, as I knew it altered all thinking, he said "well, I went for a walk, thought about it, and decided no, I'm not depressed as I don't have the "classic" symptoms, so the problem is you". 

And now he just says that "it's been _____ years, I'm never coming home".  He has been saying that for years, just changing the number. 

And then the despair sets in, and he almost reaches out for help, then I can practically see the hammer he uses to slam those feelings down and look for the next thing that will feel good. 

He feels guilt, that is also something he has articulated for a long time.  My D recently said that it was up to him to fix it, he asked her how.  He seems to want someone else to set the "rules"; it keeps him from having to think. 

[Mitzpah]

Reading what Mermaid posted on burnout. I can definitely attest that my h. went through that.

Every single one of them, he even alluded to feeling a mental collapse when he asked the psychiatrist whether he could have a mental breakdown at any time (he told me that). I think that was when she put him on anti-anxiety medication.

His boss, who is my friend (a family friend) told me that he was so unpredictable with clients because of sudden rages  , that she was fearful of sending him to deal with the clients in case he lost a contract for the firm  . After BD, apparently he got better... Although, he still blamed colleagues, clients, the government, for difficulties encountered in the execution of contracts.

Physically, he lost a lot of weight prior to BD, yet, it did not seem that it was because of vanity, more due to the mental anguish he was in.

So, yes, I can see clearly stressed, depressed and burnout

[Nas]

I voted for burnout.  After BD, before I ever knew about MLC, I remember doing a search on "job burnout" and came across adjustment disorder, which I still feel very much applies to my H because marked by anxiety and reckless behavior.

I dismissed the idea when I read that one of the criteria for diagnosis is that it resolves within 6 months of the "trigger" event.  But I have since read that it can continue as long as there continue to be unresolved stresses.

I also read an account on a depression message board written by a man who had left his wife for 18 months and behaved very MLC-like, and he wrote that he was ultimately diagnosed with adjustment disorder.

[xyzcf]

Mermaid,

Again THANK YOU for your continuing research and sharing of the Masiach burnout inventory.

When I was in nursing school, we studied Hans Selye's Stress Scale and the effect on health...recognizing that both good and bad experiences have the same physiological effect on the body. The higher your rating, the more likely you were to have a major health issue occur.

In the Masiach inventory, my husband scores high on each of the 12 measurements. He also has several physical conditions that put him at extremely high risk of collapse.

I have recognized this for so many many years.....the problem is, does he?

And my question for myself this morning, if this was any other person in my life, personal or a client, I would insist that they look at this inventory and get help ASAP...instead, for the man I love, I can only sit by and wait for that phone call that will come when he completely blows himself up. 

[Trustandlove]

This is interesting; it makes me reflect.... 

Mine didn't put his all into his day job, but did put a huge amount into a compulsive hobby that made money.  This could be called the addiction, the symptom, I keep going back and forth on this. 

One other thing I remember from the early days was when i asked him what on earth would happen if/when he burned out (a high risk in his former job) -- that was when we (the kids and I) were supposed to be there for him. 

His response was that "he was better than all those others", that it couldn't happen to him.  It was a bit delusional, in hindsight 

So perhaps the burnout was on the horizon..... 

[Lost]

During the last 4 years I saw my former boss and my counterpart having a burnout.
For sure they fell into the category of the most enthusiast and accepting (too many) responsibilities.
They both ended up in hospital, repeatedly, one had finally to stop working for over a year.
This description of the 12 points fits very well to both.

Myself after a year of emergency UN projects would have checked quite a few of those boxes but I realized I started to deplete my energy. And luckily you get a stress management booklet at the beginning of the assignment which I had stuffed into a cupboard in the first week thinking ýeah right, what douchebags ´...and then quietly taking it out a year later to make sure I do all the things you can to prevent burnout (infact, nothing new to a LBS having managed traumatic stress at BD: like getting enough sleep, eating well, exercising, meditation etc being very high on the list...)

For my H I put stressed and depressed only because he was never very enthusiastic about his jobs except in the beginning and not one to run for responsibilities. He never was a very active person and I think he was too stressed out with the kids and all the demands and changes that brings into a couple - and at the same time the routine (of household with kids stress), so I think it was more of this routine family stress at origin, so of course a childless OW is the perfect ´solution´ 

[Thunder]

I just put depressed because I didn't see any stress.  He worked a lot and was tired but I wouldn't say stressed. Maybe put in too many hours but he asked for them.  An escape, maybe?

The only thing I saw before BD was him occasionally being very, very quiet.

[Velika]

Maslach burnout inventory, or MBI, is a specific tool to measure stress specifically as the result of work, and is recognized as a valid reason for taking sick leave in a number of countries. It's recognizes as a valid scale, with internal and external reliability. The MBI Surveys address three general scales:

1. Emotional exhaustion measures feelings of being emotionally overextended and exhausted by one's work
2. Depersonalization measures an unfeeling and impersonal response toward recipients of one's service, care treatment, or instruction. This includes "anhedonia", which is a loss of the ability to feel.
3. Personal accomplishment measures feelings of competence and successful achievement in one's work

Some writers propose 12 stages of burnout, some 4, some 3. In the following, note stages 6-11. Does it look familiar?

1. The Compulsion to Prove Oneself; demonstrating worth obsessively; tends to hit the best employees, those with enthusiasm who accept responsibility readily.
2. Working Harder; an inability to switch off.
3. Neglecting Their Needs; erratic sleeping, eating disrupted, lack of social interaction.
4. Displacement of Conflicts; problems are dismissed, we may feel threatened, panicky and jittery.
5. Revision of Values; values are skewed, friends and family dismissed, hobbies seen as irrelevant, work is only focus.
6. Denial of Emerging Problems; intolerance, perceiving collaborators as stupid, lazy, demanding, or undisciplined, social contacts harder; cynicism, aggression; problems are viewed as caused by time pressure and work, not because of life changes.
7. Withdrawal; social life small or non-existent, need to feel relief from stress, alcohol/drugs.
8. Odd Behavioural Changes; changes in behaviour obvious, friends and family concerned.
9. Depersonalization; seeing neither self nor others as valuable, and no longer perceive own needs.
10. Inner Emptiness; feeling empty inside and to overcome this, look for activity such as overeating, sex, alcohol, or drugs; activities are often exaggerated.
11. Depression; feeling lost and unsure, exhausted, future feels bleak and dark.
12. Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention.

I voted stress and depression, but after reading this list (I'm not sure the source?) would say depression plus burnout.

I have the same question as Mermaid: What tips the person over the edge? I would love to see a poll or a question on this followed by poll.

I read depressing book "Runaway Husbands" soon after bomb drop. One thing that struck me as uncanny was that the author wrote that husbands that abandon often do so after a period of separation from the wife, like a work trip, holiday, etc. This was precisely what happened in my case, my son and I had left the country for six weeks. It was absolutely as the author described, when we returned he had turned into a cruel and vindictive stranger.

Is this the pattern for others on the board as well?

[Lost]

Yes, same for me. Was away preparing our new family home for the next 4 years but he never moved in...

I think this happens more with the H with immature/dependent personality, they get depressed when you leave them and can´t cope with being alone but won´t admit so they search for replacement?

His OW is also a freaking decade younger double of me so much so that our MC said to H ´I get confused about whom you are talking, your wife or the OW´´and ´why do you want a copy when you already have the original?