[Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?]

Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?

Yes, depressed.

5 (12.8%)

Yes, stressed

3 (7.7%)

Severely stressed to the point of burnout, which includes depression

15 (38.5%)

Yes, stressed and depressed

15 (38.5%)

No, neither stressed nor depressed

1 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Voting closed: August 31, 2016, 04:04:04 PM

[trusting]

Velika, I think you are spot on in your observations. 

Some quirks that I have noticed or read include leaving with almost nothing, dressing like a younger person, talking like a teenager, and fantasy thinking about the future. This seems to happen across the board. Again I feel this might indicate neurological. I think if this were simply crisis of identity it wouldn't so consistently be like a teenager. (For example it doesn't seem like MLCers are suddenly passionate about nautical history, genealogy, or gardening or other areas of interest typically pursued by older adults.) Leading up to the crisis my husband exercised more and dressed nicer. These seem like positive moves. But once the "break" occurred this quickly devolved into gaining weight and styling his hair like a teen, wearing too-young, too-tight clothes. I feel this is also a little like dementia, like someone who doesn't really know what period of their lives they are living in.

Very true - their new passions are rarely age-appropriate, or at least stage in life appropriate.  My H, while he has toned it down some, went through a stage where he did dress like a teenager.  So inappropriate and embarrassing.

From what I have read and observed, number one trait of MLC is lack of empathy. I see this consistently. In fact, in some ways I see this as a person's sudden inability to empathize. I read elsewhere that it was like watching an ordinary person turn into a sociopath. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, it really does often feel this way.

Yes.  My husband used to be the most caring, sweetest, sensitive guy.  His inability to empathize with the people he used to love the most in the world is absolutely frightening. 

[Mermaid]

Velika, I think you are spot on in your observations. 

Some quirks that I have noticed or read include leaving with almost nothing, dressing like a younger person, talking like a teenager, and fantasy thinking about the future. This seems to happen across the board. Again I feel this might indicate neurological. I think if this were simply crisis of identity it wouldn't so consistently be like a teenager. (For example it doesn't seem like MLCers are suddenly passionate about nautical history, genealogy, or gardening or other areas of interest typically pursued by older adults.) Leading up to the crisis my husband exercised more and dressed nicer. These seem like positive moves. But once the "break" occurred this quickly devolved into gaining weight and styling his hair like a teen, wearing too-young, too-tight clothes. I feel this is also a little like dementia, like someone who doesn't really know what period of their lives they are living in.

Very true - their new passions are rarely age-appropriate, or at least stage in life appropriate.  My H, while he has toned it down some, went through a stage where he did dress like a teenager.  So inappropriate and embarrassing.

From what I have read and observed, number one trait of MLC is lack of empathy. I see this consistently. In fact, in some ways I see this as a person's sudden inability to empathize. I read elsewhere that it was like watching an ordinary person turn into a sociopath. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, it really does often feel this way.

Yes.  My husband used to be the most caring, sweetest, sensitive guy.  His inability to empathize with the people he used to love the most in the world is absolutely frightening.

I agree in the descriptions... They do seem to regress, and it seems to be a frequently reported occurrence. Their behaviour is different, their empathy reduced.

What I disagree with is that this is just a neurological occurrence, as if it happened on its own without any input from the social world.

All behaviours, learning, memory and personality are developed in social context, and have a corresponding neurology. Our reptilian and paleolimbic brains affect our reactions to stress, trust, confidence, developed in very early infancy (existential security), but developed throughout our lives, although childhood is more significant. Our neolimbic brain is the source of emotions, obsessions, learning and motivations, which to personality traits. It might seem that we have one personality, but in fact we don't, we have 2-4, some of which are overt, and others hidden. It is not surprising therefore that other personalities seem to arise at a moment of stress and confusion.

Moreover, if some deep motivations in the neolimbic brain are ignored for long enough, it is likely to be a source of frustration which can suddenly bubble up to the surface.

I've also noticed that reduced empathy is commonly reported. Did you know that we are all innately egocentric? It's the action of the right supramarginal gyrus, at the junction of the parietal, temporal and frontal lobe, that autocorrects lack of empathy? But cortisol, from stress, can impare it. It's also impaired by comfort. If our MLCers feel comfortable (albeit temporarily) with their new partner, lifestyle, and avoiding what made them feel stressed in the first place, they will have less empathy for those who are suffering.

There is also a genetic component to how happy we are in marriage. The length of the 5-HTTLPR polymorphism in serotonin transporter gene affects how we react to positive and negative emotions. Those with a shorter version of this gene are more sensitive to emotions, whereas those with a longer version are less reactive. This means that if there is any negativity, it will be felt more deeply by those with a shorter version of this gene, and may make them less tolerant of it. A source of stress.

So, in conclusion, we are biological beings, but develop in a social world which affects the development and expression of our identity. Stresses, genetics, and ignored motivations can certainly lead to the sometimes sudden changes we see, and apparent personality changes are actually the manifestations of covert personalities. In the meanwhile, many of them are still searching for meaning in their lives... My H was very confused.

[Anjae]

Esgotamento in the late 90s and early 2000 (I do  not recall the word burnout to be around by then or have ever read or heard it at the time), burnout in 2011 and the doctors said it was the same things as before. The neurologist, the flirts times used no word at all, just said that I had burned everything and need to recover and slow down.

The first time I was much younger. My mum went and looked after me (Mr J was working away). The recovery was not that hard. But I think the doctors, bar for the neurologist, made a few mistakes, which may had lead to the latter incidents. At least to the second one. The first time, one of the things I start complaining of was headaches. After a while the GP gave me a med that, indeed made the headaches go away, but also my monthly cycles. For 8 or 9 months I had no monthly cycles and lost a lot weight (two of the side effects of the med). When I was off that med, my hormones were crazy and several problems come with it.

Looking back, what the GP and the health centre psychiatrist should have done was to give me minerals and vitamins, advice a good diet, rest, and slowly, activities that would stimulate me. They did nothing of the sort. The GP only liked meds, the pshychiatrits did nothing except to say she was not equipped to deal with the problem and send me to the neurologist. The neurologist thought (and was probably right), that I had a very mild form o epilepsy that is triggered by extreme stress and physical exhaustion. He gave me no meds, recommended that I keep swimming and take things easy.

Second time I skipped the doctors meds ideas. After the mess they did the first time with the meds, I was having none of it. It was more difficult to battle the depression without meds. Again, it took time and adjustment is lifestyle.

Third time I was actually taking an anti-anxiety pill and an atypical anti-depressant, but the complete physical and mental exhaustion still knock on the door. This recovery was the slower of all. I was older, there has been MLC left, centre and right (mine, Mr J, cousin), I was not in my flat, but back home and having to tend to grandmother.

Actually, I think it depends of our brain. Some of us are more susceptible to become and addict, than others. I have no idea why these behaviours, other than they provide adrenaline.
Osb husband climbed mountains, Mr J djs and goes clubbing, Kiki's husband even got to skaboarding and broke his arm. Your husband, like my cousin, seems to wallow. They suffer from a more overt depression. ´

The drinking, for those who get to it, seems pretty obvious, it is more or less the default drug of choice when one wants to drawn our sorrows. Plus, it is legal. But since MLCers are depressed, with alcohol, that is a depressant in itself, they become more depressed and their brains are probably much more susceptible to addiction.

Trust and existential security will not prevent anyone from becoming an addict if their brains have a propensity to it.

Mermaid, I have seen all types of people having depression and becoming an addict. Plus, neurotic, to me, is an Woody Allen character, or Allen himself. It means nothing to be. Neurotic used to be what psychiatrist would say women were. That and hysterical.

True, sometimes a first marriage ends because of unhappiness, or because both people decide to end it, and a second, or third will work. But that is not the case for our MLCers, so, it is not a factor that has relevance. 

Of course people do not live in a vacuum. Of course the type of place/society they were raised in will affect how they behave. Portuguese cheek kiss in pretty much all situations, Americans do not. If a person grown up in the jungle the behaviour is going to be different from a person that grew up in the city. That is obvious. None of that changes the fact that, in depression, X will affect y that will result in T.

Pills. Anti-anxiety ones to allow me to cut on the stress and anxiety, and allow me to sleep. Also minerals and vitamins. Therapy is not for me, plus there is no point in therapy if one is under deep stress. First the stress has to be cut down. And the depression has to be reduced. And therapy does not do it. It requires something that has an effect on the nervous system. I was given valerian pills by the doctor of Mr J's company. Valerian pills do nothing for such high levels of stress. I could not sleep well, I was always on.

The anti-anxiety pills, or antidepressants, are useful as a first response. It is not possible to reach someone who is in such turmoil until they have reached a more balanced place. Only then, for those who like therapy, can therapy come in. First you need to put the fire out, then you think what has to change so that there is no more fire.

What the pills do, providing they are the right ones for the person, is to allow for clarity of mind/reduced stress/uplifted mood. When those exist, usually a person is capable of seeing what needs to change.

But you are also not separated from your brain. :-) And it is not a case of blame, but of what happens. When I snap it is because I am too tired. My body and brain can no longer cope. I need rest and sleep.

I agree, one has to be pretty driven to get to his level. And he is a perfectionists and was always obsessed with the perfect stroke and beating one more record/swim in as less time as possible. He was very different in Rio, not even minding not winning the gold in the 100m butterfly, being all smiley, all happy.

Phelps had ADHS as a child, he was a disaster in school, but had an extraordinary mum, a middle school teacher, who find ways of helping her son http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1998.html

It is dead eyes, the MLCer eyed are dead. There is no life there. Depression does that.

Come on Trusting, what would be the point of age, or life stage appropriated passions?  The MLCer already had those, and they didn't want them.

I don't believe in covert personalities. That would be like saying a person who is suffering from thyroid problems, or who suffers changes because of peri-menopapuse is showing their personality number 2 or 3. Multiple personality disorder is a serious thing, and that is not our MCLers or anyone who does not suffer from multiple personality disorder has.

I really don't like that thing from psychology and psychiatry where there is always the need to put labels on people and always trying to find something else that does not even exist. Like ego. There is no such thing as ego, other than a theory from some esteemed psychoanalysts. You cannot find ego in any brain scan. Nor id. Nor self.

[Mermaid]

Thank you for your story, Anjae! Wow! You went through quite a lot. Was it work that exhausted you? Do you think it helps you understand Mr J's problems?

Our brains do vary, physically, genetically, of course. But it's never the whole story. Addiction is also about a person, who develops a sense of self in social context. So, an addict I know, for example, is constantly being criticised by his dad and pampered by his mum. His confidence is low, and resilience lower still.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't believe in psychology, psychiatry, etc. I think you are missing a huge chunk of knowledge which may be helpful and interesting. But these are really not religions to be believed in or not, they're sciences, with peer reviewed evidence. Perhaps you'd prefer to discover it yourself next time you do another MOOC?

There is a neurobiology of the self, related to consciousness. No, you can't see it on a brain scan, as its a construct from the interaction of different areas. Here's Antonio Damasio, top neuroscientist, talking about how it's done. https://www.ted.com/talks/antonio_damasio_the_quest_to_understand_consciousness?language=en

Damasio is one of Portugal's top exportas to the USA. His wife, Hannah, is more in the lab, while Antonio writes the books/ dose the talks. Ive had the pleasure of hearing him talk, and read most of his books (which are all in English and Portuguese). I'm sure you'd find them interesting, Anjae, as you've started your path of discovery in neuroscience.

[Trustandlove]

Very interesting academic discussion.... 

I just wanted to comment on the empathy thing-- or rather, lack thereof.

It was interesting to read that it is connected to comfort, in that if they feel comfortable in their new lives they will have less empathy for those who suffer as a result of their choices....  it makes sense, of course.

And yes, that is exactly what I've seen.  Whenever there is a new OW or something new and exciting off he goes, no thought for us; when he's not so pulled by something else we see some thought for us. 

I guess that might be a simplistic way of describing MLC cycling; when the replay activities (or whatever they are in the later years) give the necessary high the empathy button is in the off position; when things aren't going so well they may cycle towards us. 

[osb]

I agree in the descriptions... They do seem to regress, and it seems to be a frequently reported occurrence. Their behaviour is different, their empathy reduced. What I disagree with is that this is just a neurological occurrence, as if it happened on its own without any input from the social world. All behaviours, learning, memory and personality are developed in social context, and have a corresponding neurology.

MLC is unlikely to be caused by a neurological event, like most social behaviour. There is always a neurological correspondence in all thoughts, feelings, personality and behaviour, which develop in social context. There is no evidence whatsoever, despite musings here, that MLC is a disease that starts in the brain, like an anurism or a stroke!!! It's so clearly not!

I think we're all talking about the same thing, but describing with different words. I believe (with evidence, as I understand it) that MLC is a disease that starts in the brain, like a depression. No, not like an aneurism, but in the sense that disordered thinking tends to involve disorder in the organ that does the thinking.

As a psychologist, you may emphasize an individual's social context, the personal history and interactions. As a physiologist, I may understand those memories as newly developed connections between neurons, tangible structures that hold memories and associations. A biochemist might say it's all in the neurotransmitters that come to play at the feathery ends of those connections. But a physicist would say that these molecules interacting is all about physics; and my mathematician friend would insist that all biology come down to math, in the end! None of these are wrong. There's no chicken-and-egg about it; they are all simultaneously true. But on this board, we each view the world of MLC through the filter that best permits us to understand it.

So this is your discussion; if you prefer to focus on psychology, we can retire neurological aspects of MLC to another conversation.

Loss of empathy seems to be a marker of MLC. Empathy is innate, in the sense that infants have empathy (some cool - and adorable - behavioral studies on this). It seems such a shattering of the human self, to lose that sense. I can remember when my H's empathy evaporated - that was what I associated with H's shark eyes, dead in their sockets like coals in a pit; not a glimmer of interest or humour or caring for anything but his own crazed self. 180-degree change from the man he was before. During MLC, H did some 'playing hero' for assorted people (mostly OWs), but that sure felt like attempts to shore himself up, not truly caring for them. The point when I started to believe my H's MLC was over, was when the expression in his eyes returned to normal; and he started to feel empathy (not for me, to begin with! but for anyone).

[Velika]

I just wanted to comment on the empathy thing-- or rather, lack thereof.

It was interesting to read that it is connected to comfort, in that if they feel comfortable in their new lives they will have less empathy for those who suffer as a result of their choices....  it makes sense, of course.

And yes, that is exactly what I've seen.  Whenever there is a new OW or something new and exciting off he goes, no thought for us; when he's not so pulled by something else we see some thought for us. 

Do you think he is pulled back by empathy though, or self interest? Is it that he somehow is focusing all his empathy on the OWs, or is he just getting something from them, and absent of that goes back to another source of comfort?

I really think lack of empathy is key to MLC. Whether this is depression or something like depression I'm not sure. But osb is right, even small babies have empathy. My dog shows empathy! I think it is innate to many species and mammals in particular.

I have heard people with a psychological background say that this lack of empathy is a tool of cognitive dissonance. It is hard for me to see though how this would apply in a MLC case where lack of empathy seems to be demonstrated across the board and in such an extreme way. I agree with osb that the type of "caring" shown by a MLCer seems more self-centered. Of course I have wondered many times if my husband was always low on empathy (and that may be). However — and I may be incorrect — there is a difference from not being the type of person who goes out to make the spouse chicken soup when he/she is sick and someone who flaunts an affair to the spouse.

I have noticed in my experience and in others that an especially "manic" (monster) MLCer is mistrustful of empathetic gestures. I tried to be very understanding at several points and my MLC husband saw this as weakness or manipulative. He only seems to remember the things I said when I was angry, not the things I said when I was wanting to be kind. It's almost like it doesn't register

I don't know enough about the brain or psychology to know if the part of the mind that generates empathy is the same part that perceives it, but I think it would be interesting. Again, I feel like the empathy part (and especially since so often reported with "shark eyes") is key to a neurological understanding of MLC as so many here experience on this board.

[Thunder]

Actually, I think it depends of our brain. Some of us are more susceptible to become and addict, than others. I have no idea why these behaviours, other than they provide adrenaline.

That's interesting, Anjae.  I saw a study years ago taken with a group of teenagers.  Some came from alcoholic families and some didn't.  They hooked them all up to record how they reacted to drinking a very strong alcoholic drink.  None of them had ever drank alcohol before.

The results were amazing.  The kids who came from alcoholic families react very differently, physically, to the drink than the other non-alcoholic  family kids did.  So it proved that some people may very well be genetically susceptible to becoming an addict.
Of course that's not the only reason, but it does explain why some people can drink for years and never become addicted, while others can become addicted so fast.

Not sure this has anything to do with MLC, but this whole discussion is interesting.   

[Mermaid]

I'm glad you find it interesting, Thundar. I do too. The truth is we don't know what causes MLC, and are guessing here with very unscientific research (through our polls). This doesn't mean this is a worthless discussion, quite the opposite. It's just not statistically valid. Osb, I'm sure, as a researcher, you'll understand what I mean by that.

I'm going to start with an admission of knowledge, and lack of it too. I'm a uni researcher with a PhD in an area of interdisciplinary social science. So I am not a neurologist, obviously, although my area does include neurological considerations. I've had about 20 years research experience in socio cognitive development, which means that I look at how biological development is affected by social context. I tell you this so that you know where I'm coming from. Obviously, as a researcher, I consider all challenges to research. The difference between belief and science is that science is always being revised by new evidence. So, as much as those with a neurological Background may be frustrated by my points of view, I actually think we should have a lot to say to each other. We complete each other's points of view.

I think the discussion shouldn't be limited to social or neurological, but how they affect each other. Neurological is fascinating. Don't leave it out of this thread!

 On the other hand, a serious conversation about this shouldn't be about what we believe or don't believe. I'm not interested in a discussion of faith and belief. Before someone complains, I'm not dismissing faiths here, just saying that I'm trying to keep this at a scientific level. That means excluding what we think or believe unless we have evidence for it.

[Thunder]

Like seeing my H have real hot flashes?