[Absolutely Fabulous]

The contradictions can't be ignored, or downplayed.

Here's my take:

- Not everyone who comes here has a spouse in MLC.
- Paving the way is not for everyone, some of us really do need to go No Contact early on to avoid abuse ( financial, emotional, verbal, physical, etc...)
- The faster you let go, the faster you can get on with your life.
- They need to suffer the consequences of their actions without our input.
- Our children deserve to be protected from the trauma to the best of our ability.
- The MLCer isn't concerned with anything that happens to the LBSer, so you have to accept that.
- They ARE trying to destroy the LBSer due to their pride issues, and sense of entitlement.
- Pavers make their MLCer feel empowered by feeding their sense of entitlement.
- NO they don't care what happens to you.
- It's a waste of time worrying about them.
- They are only concerned about you being there for them, and will continue their behavior to ensure that you don't move forward.
- They have more control over Pavers, because they are more willing to put up with their BS.
- They are only interested in control, therefore they provoke you to keep you FOCUSED ON THEM.
- No it's not your fault, they have issues that they hide from us.
- Stop blaming yourself there is really is nothing you can do.
- There is the possibility that after you work on yourself that you may not want them back.
- No one is perfect, but the LBSer is a least willing to work on themselves.
- Too much emphasis is placed on the MLCer on this forum, and there is a lot of condemnation on LBSers and judgment of how they handle their individual situations.

That's just my take.

[Onward]

I really think that the point of all this is that we must concentrate on ourselves and not worry about
the person that we have absolutely no control over.
It is amazing to me how codependent, conflict avoiding, enablers seem to always make up
the LBS population.
I think that those are things that we all need to work on.

Always?

Well, I'm not conflict avoiding.

I don't seek out conflict, either.  But it sure is interesting what has happened a number of times when I have expressed an independent thought or contradictory point of view.

Isn't it funny how life is filled with contradictions.

BTW, I'm not codependent either.
Or an enabler.

At least, not that a professional has ever said. 

[Braveheart]

I wondered what the response would be to RCR's post, as in the past when I posted basically the Reader's Digest version of it I had people calling for my head . Unlike many here I considered my X gone for good the minute I found out about the OM and while in pain I just needed to heal and figure out how this "Pod Person" was who had taken over my Bride....Recognizing it as something I had no control over I worked entirely on getting my own spiritual, emotional and physical ducks in line. Being the Anchor for my two kids rather than a Lighthouse for an X on a voyage with Captain Jack Sparrow was my focus.

I took the course I did based on the experience I'd had with other long term pre-marriage relationships (1-5 years), being that the scenario for an exit affair and MLC are not a lot different. They became a distant, evasive and defensive, then they left for another guy. In those cases it was very rare they ever came back, unless they got dumped relatively quickly or were trying to make the new guy jealous enough to "Seal the Deal", "fool me twice" came to mind, it never lasted or was genuine.

A few of them I've met again after the passage of 10 years plus, none had really changed at all in their attitude, nor I would want anything to do with. Only one looks at me as "The One" she should not have left and has apparently been battering her poor husband over the head with that for the last 30 years. He's now in ill health and according to long time friends she's been recconecting with them and enquiring about me....I did "Stand" for her for about two years, but now hardly see such a person as a prize.

[Braveheart]

The contradictions can't be ignored, or downplayed.

Here's my take:

- Not everyone who comes here has a spouse in MLC.
- Paving the way is not for everyone, some of us really do need to go No Contact early on to avoid abuse ( financial, emotional, verbal, physical, etc...)
- The faster you let go, the faster you can get on with your life.
- They need to suffer the consequences of their actions without our input.
- Our children deserve to be protected from the trauma to the best of our ability.
- The MLCer isn't concerned with anything that happens to the LBSer, so you have to accept that.
- They ARE trying to destroy the LBSer due to their pride issues, and sense of entitlement.
- Pavers make their MLCer feel empowered by feeding their sense of entitlement.
- NO they don't care what happens to you.
- It's a waste of time worrying about them.
- They are only concerned about you being there for them, and will continue their behavior to ensure that you don't move forward.
- They have more control over Pavers, because they are more willing to put up with their BS.
- They are only interested in control, therefore they provoke you to keep you FOCUSED ON THEM.
- No it's not your fault, they have issues that they hide from us.
- Stop blaming yourself there is really is nothing you can do.
- There is the possibility that after you work on yourself that you may not want them back.
- No one is perfect, but the LBSer is a least willing to work on themselves.
- Too much emphasis is placed on the MLCer on this forum, and there is a lot of condemnation on LBSers and judgment of how they handle their individual situations.

That's just my take.

I think you and I are "Soul Mates"

[Velika]

I am someone who does not think that someone in MLC is on a journey. I think they have a biology based mental illness that is likely to some extent hereditary and affects specific part or parts of the brain. My guess is that this is also to some degree systemic and possibly related to inflammation and the immune system.

The impact is: haywire fight-or-flight response, inability to predict consequences of behaviors, increase in primitive defense mechanisms like fantasy and projection, difficulty regulating emotions like anger, increased episodes of PTSD, and inability to feel empathy. I believe it also damages ability to learn from mistakes, think critically, control impulses, and ability to read situational clues.

What this means is that the spouse of someone with "MLC" needs coaching and tools and language to deal with someone with a mental illness or personality disorder that may never resolve. This includes ways they can avoid becoming emotionally entangled and also avoid aggravating the spouse's condition -- and eventually possibly coming to accept that this is a permanent or long term neurological change and make decisions accordingly. (Much like someone whose spouse had a stroke or other brain injury would do.)

I think that in this frame, the LBS can see that he or she is not responsible for this illness and can only avoid doing things to exacerbate the side effects, like responding emotionally to the MLCer, and protecting themselves from an oftentimes abusive and amoral person.

I believe MLC an illness/condition with no predictable timeline, meaning some can recover and some may cycle for over a decade or never recover. There is an increasing understanding that mental illness is inflammation based and this may be a factor.

I think the articles offer great descriptions of patterns and help show ways the condition is predictable in its manifestation if not its timeline.

[Searching4Answers]

The balance is tricky, we want to encourage hope, be gentle with the "newbies" yet what about reality?

In the early days when he was stomping all over my heart, I kept repeating out loud, "it's part of the process, he needs time".  Literally out loud over and over just so I could breath.   At the time, If I read on this site that the longer it takes the less chance I had, it would have put me over the edge.  I just know it would.  I could breath b/c I believed the time away was good, it's the only way I could get through the day.

Don't get me wrong, I think like most of RCR's articles it is informative and well written.  It's just in the early days I read and read each article many times and took them to heart.  If I read this I would have been distraught that the clock was ticking and I feel I would have become even more desperate, if that's even possible.

I understood that there was no guarantees but I was digging like crazy for statistics, time lines, anything that would help me beat the odds.  If I thought time was against me instead of patience and time being my best warrior, I would have spiraled down even deeper in despair. 

I agree that there is a certain balance of hope and reality - I am someone that prefers to look at things realistically but in the early days of BD my logical brain was not so logical.

I think that even with the harsh reality being noted that newbies don't necessarily see that truth. Our brains are wired to process only what we are able to handle at that given time. There are several times that I have read an article then reread that same article 3, 4, 5 months later and understand it completely differently than I did the first time. There has also been information in the article that I somehow missed or didn't process because I was not ready to digest it.

I remember reading the articles that talked about the timeline - we all wanted to know the timeline - and thinking that my MLCer was 'special' and he would be closer to the 2 year milestone. I was in denial about a lot of things until I was healed enough to consider the other information that had been staring right at me, the whole time.

[Beacon]

I think that even with the harsh reality being noted that newbies don't necessarily see that truth. Our brains are wired to process only what we are able to handle at that given time. There are several times that I have read an article then reread that same article 3, 4, 5 months later and understand it completely differently than I did the first time. There has also been information in the article that I somehow missed or didn't process because I was not ready to digest it.

I completely agree with this and I think newbies are in just as much emotional turmoil as the MLCr's. I also read articles and then read them a year later and they mean something completely different to me now. I believe that is because in the beginning I was a mess and was only seeing what I wanted to see. Now that I have detached and found myself, so reading the articles now I grasp and interpret the information on a new level.

Hope for LBSr's in the first year or so is different for each person depending on the circumstances of the spouse based on contact levels, abuse, etc... Some have absolutely No hope and others only a glimmer. I think that any hope at the start of this mess is all false mostly because we are usually emotionally, psychologically and physically drained. Once we have gained strength in ourselves and our emotions the level of hope has changed.

Perhaps only my observations.

[osb]

Codependent and conflict avoidant as we might be (at various points, those epithets have applied to me ), I think the general HS approach of self-protection and emotional distancing does work after BD - for us, if not for the MLCer. I didn't consider I was being kind to my MLCer for the purpose of 'paving the way' nor that I was being a softie; I thought "you may be one angry SOB, but you're not going to make me behave like you!" Being kind (albeit with boundaries) was a way of asserting that my H couldn't make me react with anger (though react I did, inside!). I was very strict with myself about that.

I've thought before that whatever shape our MLCer's 'acting out' takes, that's the one that we seem to be most reluctant to see develop in ourselves. Stayed has talked about her H's MLC jealousy, and how it became poison to her to have similar emotions. My H was a raging angry mess, and I suppressed every shred of anger, cultivated my zen. Other similar parallels I've noticed, in other stories. Perhaps the act of actively not becoming whatever monster our spouse has become, has a liberating effect on us?

[osb]

What this means is that the spouse of someone with "MLC" needs coaching and tools and language to deal with someone with a mental illness or personality disorder that may never resolve. This includes ways they can avoid becoming emotionally entangled and also avoid aggravating the spouse's condition -- and eventually possibly coming to accept that this is a permanent or long term neurological change and make decisions accordingly. (Much like someone whose spouse had a stroke or other brain injury would do.) 

I think that in this frame, the LBS can see that he or she is not responsible for this illness and can only avoid doing things to exacerbate the side effects...

FWIW this approach made a lot of sense to me, when I was a newbie. I had a counselor advise me as though I were living with an alcoholic, on what language strategies to use and how to get away from an escalating situation before I got hurt. No role for blaming, just self-preservation.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Standing isn't a guarantee it's true. There are some things that are not going to be different. There are some people who will not come back due to the fact that they can't live with the guilt. And, many others because they won't wake up. It really doesn't matter, in the end the only thing that does matter is: what are you as the LBSer going to do about it?

Are you going to spend the rest of your life waiting for someone that might not ever return? Or will you go on bravely and see what else is out there for you? Standing doesn't mean that you become someone that doesn't have a life. And truth be known, RCR is the exception not the rule.

Her articles contradict for one reason and one reason only: it's all speculation, there are no concrete answers. We don't know if it's a mental illness. We don't know if it's spiritual. We just don't know. Too many people on the forum have seen RCR as the authority. She's just someone that has done research and a lot of leg work. And, a good job for the most part. Still, she doesn't have all the answers. And, let's be honest: quoting her articles constantly is not helping anyone on this issue. People want answers that may never be forth coming. It all depends on the situation.

There will be some people that will move on, and find someone new. Then the MLCer will return. There will be others that will not find someone else and be forever alone waiting for someone that will not come back. Still there will be others that will be in the midst of moving on with someone else, and the MLCer will want to return. There will be others that will stay with the OP and still try to maintain a connection with the LBS. The possibilities are endless. The more important question is: How long do you intend to stand with no guarantees? Maybe there should be a time limit. All of us deserve to have a new life considering what we've all been through. The question is: How much time do you really want to invest waiting for the unknown? It's really a personal decision that only the LBSer can make.